Tony Larussa arrested for DUI

[CC97]

I think you bring up a really good point about setting an example, but I just don't see it happening. I think we'll probably see him catch hell for this all year long, and then retire at the end of the season. I just can't find it in me to think he should be fired for this. We're talking about one of the all-time greats here.

He's not in the same ballpark at all, but the Jays fired Tim Johnson because he told a story about himself that he made up in an attempt to rally his players (who, in his only season as manager led the team to their best record in the past 14 seasons)... I always thought that was weird.

[Hat Boy]

He's not in the same ballpark at all, but the Jays fired Tim Johnson because he told a story about himself that he made up in an attempt to rally his players (who, in his only season as manager led the team to their best record in the past 14 seasons)... I always thought that was weird.

I had forgotten about that. Of course, it is not like Johnson lied about hitting a HR in Little League. The guy made up stories about his service in Vietnam.

From Tutorgig.com:

Despite this lack of chemistry, Johnson guided the 1998 Blue Jays to a respectable third place finish in the AL East with an 88-74 record. This success was partly attributed to the stories Johnson would tell his players about his battle experiences in the Vietnam War. It was revealed near the end of the season, however, that Johnson had made up all of these stories, and that he had spent the war stateside in the Marines. After initially denying that he had lied, Johnson eventually apologized and the Blue Jays organization gave him the opportunity to resign. Johnson did not resign, however, and he was fired before the 1999 season and replaced by Jim Fregosi.

I am not saying Johnson should have been fired, but lying about combat is a big no-no.

[DG_ThenNowForever]

I think you bring up a really good point about setting an example, but I just don't see it happening. I think we'll probably see him catch hell for this all year long, and then retire at the end of the season. I just can't find it in me to think he should be fired for this. We're talking about one of the all-time greats here.

I see your point and there is a difference between driving drunk and killing someone driving drunk. I'm upset that we make concessions for people who do bad things when they are "all-time greats," but I understand why we do.

And I don't see any example-setting happening either. LaRussa may retire at the end of the year, he may not. But he certainly won't face the same repercussions for his actions that you or I would in a similar situation. Duh, right?

[IceCap]

Now I agree, second chances are a wonderful thing, but I think Little should have spent some significant jail time before he got his. Even when he didn't he still wasted his second chance.

So talk about the beauty of third, fourth, and fifth chances until you're blue in the face. It's white noise now. I don't wish ill on anyone, but honestly I don't think you'll truly know what your talking about until someone you love is involved in an accident brought on by a drunk driver, because that seems to be the only thing that will knock you down from your pedestal.

I agree with your point, but I don't like that line of reasoning. Losing someone in a car accident shouldn't be what it takes for one to realize drinking and driving is indefensible. I've been lucky in that regard and I do recognize the stupidity, the selfishness and the danger of driving drunk. Some things are inexcusable -- driving while drunk is one of them, personal experience or not.

I agree with you for the most part, driving drunk is something that most people have the common sense to condemn, even if they are never affected by it. STL FANATIC, however, seems to be the person who's willing to forgive and forget, to "bypass" what common sense would usually dictate. His talk about third and fourth chances is something most people wouldn't even consider, especially someone who has been, or knows people who have been, involved in an accident due to drunk driving.

So what I'm saying is that while most people in his situation would toss out notions of third and fourth chances, he doesn't on the basis of "understanding."

[STL FANATIC]

Now I agree, second chances are a wonderful thing, but I think Little should have spent some significant jail time before he got his. Even when he didn't he still wasted his second chance.

So talk about the beauty of third, fourth, and fifth chances until you're blue in the face. It's white noise now. I don't wish ill on anyone, but honestly I don't think you'll truly know what your talking about until someone you love is involved in an accident brought on by a drunk driver, because that seems to be the only thing that will knock you down from your pedestal.

I agree with your point, but I don't like that line of reasoning. Losing someone in a car accident shouldn't be what it takes for one to realize drinking and driving is indefensible. I've been lucky in that regard and I do recognize the stupidity, the selfishness and the danger of driving drunk. Some things are inexcusable -- driving while drunk is one of them, personal experience or not.

I agree with you for the most part, driving drunk is something that most people have the common sense to condemn, even if they are never affected by it. STL FANATIC, however, seems to be the person who's willing to forgive and forget, to "bypass" what common sense would usually dictate. His talk about third and fourth chances is something most people wouldn't even consider, especially someone who has been, or knows people who have been, involved in an accident due to drunk driving.

So what I'm saying is that while most people in his situation would toss out notions of third and fourth chances, he doesn't on the basis of "understanding."

Don't confuse my second and third and fourth chances of me forgiving them with me thinking they should be able to go 2 and 3 and 4 and 5 times without facing serious consequences.

You can disagree with the sentences people get for being involved in a fatal crash while driving drunk, but at the time, Leonard Little's sentence was not a light one. He served 90 days, large fines, lots of community service, and probation (as well as an 8-game NFL suspension). Say what you want about the second instance, but he was acquitted of charges. If the courts don't find him guilty, it wouldn't be fair for others to punish him. He definitely was driving after drinking alcohol, and he did fail some tests, but without a BAC, they couldn't prove guilt (and you can fail tests with a legal BAC anyways...La Russa's was barely over and he did). It's enough for me to think he was stupid that the first time didn't teach him (because legal level or not, he shouldn't even be taking the chance) but I can still forgive him as a person (and like I said, the NFL and Rams can't set some example since he was found not guilty). If Little was convicted, I might be in favor of a HUGE suspension or removal from the team, but I would still forgive him and support him as a person.

The same goes for La Russa, except that I'm even more sure this was one completely out of character mistake, and I don't think he ought to lose his job over it. It's not his baseball record that makes me think that, it's his character track record. Plus, I don't think setting examples out of people is the right thing to do when the example wouldn't be followed exactly in future situations. I could be wrong on this, but I don't think all places of work would be allowed to fire a worker for the specific reason of a first time drunk driving offense. Just because La Russa is in a position that's easily in the public eye and could send a message, does not mean it's fair to fire him when others couldn't be.

Anyways, just to clarify, there is a certain point when I'm in favor of big time consequences, but I'd continue to forgive as a person (although, I'm sure there'd be a certain point where so many incidents might change that).

As for if I was close to someone killed by a drunk driver, I'm sure I'd be pissed for a time, but it's still my nature to forgive that person. You don't have to believe me, but none of you know me much besides these boards. You'll just have to trust me that it REALLY IS my nature. Now, I can't say I'd be willing to forgive that person over and over if they killed and then kept doing it (and yes, I do see where the Leonard Little situation applies..I'm sure I'd be mad at him at this point, but I wouldn't hate him) and never learned. But they would certainly have the chance to have my forgiveness.

I hope that makes sense even if you continue to refuse to believe me.

Oh, and I want to add one more thing. I pretty much never "forgive and forget." I forgive. A lot. But to forget is ignorant. It's always important to keep the events of the past in mind.

[NJTank]

LaRussa has never done anything wrong before he will get a slap on the wrist, but if he does it again then he should get nailed

[CC97]

You can disagree with the sentences people get for being involved in a fatal crash while driving drunk, but at the time, Leonard Little's sentence was not a light one. He served 90 days, large fines, lots of community service, and probation (as well as an 8-game NFL suspension).

You don't consider that light? For murder? Weird.

[STL FANATIC]

You can disagree with the sentences people get for being involved in a fatal crash while driving drunk, but at the time, Leonard Little's sentence was not a light one. He served 90 days, large fines, lots of community service, and probation (as well as an 8-game NFL suspension).

You don't consider that light? For murder? Weird.

It's not murder. I know you continue to call it murder, but it's not. It's involuntary manslaughter. Murder, though able to have it's definition stretched (and a few times drunk driving has fallen under that crazy stretching), requires malicious intent. What Little did was commit another crime that recklessly put in jeopardy and took away the life of another. But it wasn't murder.

Furthermore, I didn't state whether I consider it light or not. I said it wasn't light compared to many similar cases at the time.

[CC97]

It's not murder. I know you continue to call it murder, but it's not. It's involuntary manslaughter

Driving drunk is about the same as taking a gun and firing it randomly out in an open space... sure you didn't mean to kill anyone, but what did you think would happen?

[STL FANATIC]

It's not murder. I know you continue to call it murder, but it's not. It's involuntary manslaughter

Driving drunk is about the same as taking a gun and firing it randomly out in an open space... sure you didn't mean to kill anyone, but what did you think would happen?

And if someone died that would be involuntary manslaughter and not murder.

[IceCap]

It's not murder. I know you continue to call it murder, but it's not. It's involuntary manslaughter

Driving drunk is about the same as taking a gun and firing it randomly out in an open space... sure you didn't mean to kill anyone, but what did you think would happen?

And if someone died that would be involuntary manslaughter and not murder.

Involuntary manslaughter still calls for some serious jail time.

[pcgd]

Personally, he should lose his driving privileges at least a year if not longer. I don't care who he is.

Second, this should effect his job just as much as it would effect any of our jobs. IE...it shouldn't. Driving is not part of his reponsiblities as a manager. If you are a office worker and you get a DUI, you aren't going to get fired unless you go to jail for awhile.

You know if the cardinals fired him, the first team that needed a manager would be calling. And imagine if it was someone in the division or the league...not a good situation.

Athletes are given second, third, 10th chances all the time. Sure some say its wrong, but for the most part, we over look it. I don't see this as any different. If Jeter got a DUI tomorrow, nobody within the yankees would be calling for his release.

He was wrong, he should be criminally charged. He should be fined by the state and the team. He should do community service. Drunk driving is one of my biggest no-nos, but I still feel you should be given a second chance, eventually. A third? Absolutly not, that's what we call a "pattern".

But he shouldn't, and won't lose his job.

[STL FANATIC]

It's not murder. I know you continue to call it murder, but it's not. It's involuntary manslaughter

Driving drunk is about the same as taking a gun and firing it randomly out in an open space... sure you didn't mean to kill anyone, but what did you think would happen?

And if someone died that would be involuntary manslaughter and not murder.

Involuntary manslaughter still calls for some serious jail time.

Right, but I have serious issue with someone calling it murder, because it's not. Bad people murder people. Stupid people drive drunk (though I can see calling someone who continues to do it bad).

And involuntary manslaughter depends on the case. And while drunk driving involuntary manslaughter gets SOME serious time now, it was less so when Little committed the crime. Now, from the most recent stats I saw in Missouri, about half of people convicted of involuntary manslaughter while intoxicated in a vehicle recieve prison time, but those who do recieve an average of 6.9 years (and I think the max is 7).

Little maybe DESERVED more jailtime, but it's not as simple as saying he didn't get it because he's an NFL player.

[HedleyLamarr]

It's not murder. I know you continue to call it murder, but it's not. It's involuntary manslaughter

Driving drunk is about the same as taking a gun and firing it randomly out in an open space... sure you didn't mean to kill anyone, but what did you think would happen?

And if someone died that would be involuntary manslaughter and not murder.

Involuntary manslaughter still calls for some serious jail time.

Right, but I have serious issue with someone calling it murder, because it's not. Bad people murder people. Stupid people drive drunk (though I can see calling someone who continues to do it bad).

And involuntary manslaughter depends on the case. And while drunk driving involuntary manslaughter gets SOME serious time now, it was less so when Little committed the crime. Now, from the most recent stats I saw in Missouri, about half of people convicted of involuntary manslaughter while intoxicated in a vehicle recieve prison time, but those who do recieve an average of 6.9 years (and I think the max is 7).

Little maybe DESERVED more jailtime, but it's not as simple as saying he didn't get it because he's an NFL player.

Maybe?

Let's face it, you're all about "forgiving" as long as your home-team athlete gets the minimum amount of punishment possible. You said the average sentence is just short of seven years (and I assume that the fines, community service, and probation are also handed out), and you claimed that Little's sentence of 3 months and missing eight games was "not light". Yeah, three months is so comparable to the normal 81-82 months given to the average person.

Maybe? You've got to be kidding me.

[STL FANATIC]

It's not murder. I know you continue to call it murder, but it's not. It's involuntary manslaughter

Driving drunk is about the same as taking a gun and firing it randomly out in an open space... sure you didn't mean to kill anyone, but what did you think would happen?

And if someone died that would be involuntary manslaughter and not murder.

Involuntary manslaughter still calls for some serious jail time.

Right, but I have serious issue with someone calling it murder, because it's not. Bad people murder people. Stupid people drive drunk (though I can see calling someone who continues to do it bad).

And involuntary manslaughter depends on the case. And while drunk driving involuntary manslaughter gets SOME serious time now, it was less so when Little committed the crime. Now, from the most recent stats I saw in Missouri, about half of people convicted of involuntary manslaughter while intoxicated in a vehicle recieve prison time, but those who do recieve an average of 6.9 years (and I think the max is 7).

Little maybe DESERVED more jailtime, but it's not as simple as saying he didn't get it because he's an NFL player.

Maybe?

Let's face it, you're all about "forgiving" as long as your home-team athlete gets the minimum amount of punishment possible. You said the average sentence is just short of seven years (and I assume that the fines, community service, and probation are also handed out), and you claimed that Little's sentence of 3 months and missing eight games was "not light". Yeah, three months is so comparable to the normal 81-82 months given to the average person.

Maybe? You've got to be kidding me.

We're about 10 years removed from Little's offense. Punishments were much different and lighter then. Those were 2005 or 2006 numbers I gave.

And, the average prison term even in these more recent stats was almost 7 years, but only 47% of those people who recieved sentences got jailtime. That's 53% of convicted people who served NO TIME! And that's nearly 10 years removed from Little's sentencing when the crime was taken even lighter.

Little's sentence was NOT anymore lenient than what a lot of "average joes" got for the same crime. And in many cases his was more!

And I stand by my maybe. To me the biggest crime is the drunk driving. The result of a death, is chance, as has been noted many times. I think drunk driving penalties should be higher. I think a lot should depend on the BAC. But I also think first time offenders should be treated as if it was a really, ridiculously stupid mistake. When they become a repeat offender, the sentence should be MUCH stiffer. Little however was acquitted of the second charge, so he definitely couldn't have recieved the much stiffer sentence.

And Hedley, don't for one damn second believe you know who, how, and when I forgive. I'm about forgiveness period. You can pull the homer BS out all you want, but it doesn't have a damn thing to do with my views on this. I've had the same basic feeling since I first knew what drunk driving was.

I'm about done with this crap. I don't mind people seeing my view as completley wrong, but I'm tired of it being dismissed as some biased lie. I can handle people dismissing my sports opinons because I'm a homer, I can shrugg off people making up quotes that exagerate my homerism three-fold and don't resemble a thought I ever had, but I can't take people questioning and lieing about a very important part of my character and who I am.

[BBTV]

Personally, he should lose his driving privileges at least a year if not longer. I don't care who he is.

Second, this should effect his job just as much as it would effect any of our jobs. IE...it shouldn't.

I'm not saying it is fair, but I'm pretty certain that if I was to get a DUI and my employer found out about it, I would lose my job (only because they are sooooo puplicity conscious and wouldn't ever want a story to be written about how they employ fellons etc.) Actually, I know several people who would lose jobs if convicted of a fellony. Wait - is DUI a fellony? I'm fairly certain that even if it isn't, if it made the paper and I was reconized, I'd get canned (and it's not like I'm a minimum-wage dime-a-dozen teenager (no offence to any minimum-wage makin' dime-a-dozen teenager.)

I'm not saying TLR should or shouldn't be fired. I recognize that pro-sports are not regular everyday jobs like the rest of us have. If TLR was a college, high-school, or middle-school coach, he should ABSOLUTELY be fired, as those positions are ones that kids are supposed to look up to and learn from. In the pros, while a coach / manager should set the example, it isn't as cut and dry. I would understand it either way if he was fired or not.

Two things to point out:

1. If he was an NBA player, there would be quite a few posters calling for his head on a platter.

2. STL Fanatic is to St.L. sports like Tnak is to conservative politics (though Tnak has been a lot better lately.) Both live in a world that is unlike the one most of us wake up to every morning.

[CC97]

Just to compare how Jays fans reacted to their own player (Chacin) being charged with the same offense as TLR

(from a Jays message board, I'd link to it but they require registration to view)

Idiot.

Blowing something like 0.15 is more than just fooling around or having a drink or two; that's being an idiot and driving gassed. Stupid stupid stupid.

Well I'd rather read he got stopped than he got killed... still... driving drunk is one of the most retarded things you can do...

What an abosolute jerk.

How about that?

[Roger Clemente]

Anyone remember what Dany Heatley got?

--Roger "Time?" Clemente.

[IceCap]

Anyone remember what Dany Heatley got?

--Roger "Time?" Clemente.

I don't remember the specifics, but whatever he got was not enough, not by a long shot.

[STL FANATIC]

Just to compare how Jays fans reacted to their own player (Chacin) being charged with the same offense as TLR

(from a Jays message board, I'd link to it but they require registration to view)

Idiot.

Blowing something like 0.15 is more than just fooling around or having a drink or two; that's being an idiot and driving gassed. Stupid stupid stupid.

Well I'd rather read he got stopped than he got killed... still... driving drunk is one of the most retarded things you can do...

What an abosolute jerk.

How about that?

And here's what Cardinals fans had to say about La Russa's .093.

Huge dissapointment. Dumb move, Tony.

How stupid.

What a freakin' idiot. There's simply no excuse for this.

This is unexcusable, he should have been smart enough to call a cab.

Even I said this:

Stupid, stupid move by TLR.

And yet, none of those comments stopped people from forgiving them. None of them mean they think he should be charged with attempted murder and be put behind bars for 20 years.

So, really, I don't understand what you're adding with that Chris.

Nobody's saying drunk driving is a fine practice. All I've ever said is it's an out of character mistake for him and I forgive him and will continue to judge him on all of his actions and not just one.

I don't know anything about Chacin to say whether it's out of character or not.

And if you wanna compare to Tank for sports discussion fine, but what you guys can't seem to figure out is that my views on this have NOTHING to do with sports. Not a thing.

You may think I should wait until you I know someone close to me killed by a drunk driver, but I say you wait until you know someone close to you who makes the mistake and kills someone in a wreck. Then listen to people call them a murderer and see if you don't find that to be a ridiculously wrong and unfair description.