Josh Hancock dies in auto accident

[Milo Meningocele]

What I take offense to is people telling me I'm unhealthy.

You are. You claimed to be a Cardinal and part of the organization. You're delusional.

But if you and others expect me to hate a guy and feel like he got what's coming because he was driving drunk I won't. That's a mistake, and it's a really bad mistake, but one act does not define a person, and rarely if ever does a person deserve death for any mistake.

Sounds harsher than I want it to, but he did get what was coming. And just like a guy who gets caught cheating on his girl, the time he's caught usually isn't the first offense.

But I'll forgive that mistake, because I believe it's the right thing to do.

...and because it has absolutely no bearing on anything whatsoever; because you didn't know him and he didn't know you, and he didn't give a rat's arse what you would've thought about his personal habits.

[STL FANATIC]

I'll keep this short because I'm not gonna get into an argument right now......

Really? Were you planning to write up an essay?

I already said way more than I wanted to right now...

[averyj]

edit:

never mind

[STL FANATIC]

What I take offense to is people telling me I'm unhealthy.

You are. You claimed to be a Cardinal and part of the organization. You're delusional.

But if you and others expect me to hate a guy and feel like he got what's coming because he was driving drunk I won't. That's a mistake, and it's a really bad mistake, but one act does not define a person, and rarely if ever does a person deserve death for any mistake.

Sounds harsher than I want it to, but he did get what was coming. And just like a guy who gets caught cheating on his girl, the time he's caught usually isn't the first offense.

But I'll forgive that mistake, because I believe it's the right thing to do.

...and because it has absolutely no bearing on anything whatsoever; because you didn't know him and he didn't know you, and he didn't give a rat's arse what you would've thought about his personal habits.

I claimed I was a Cardinal. Didn't mention anything about being part of the organization. I have a feeling the organization might back me up if I had said that though. And it's not delusional. I simply believe my role as a fan is a very important part of who the Cardinals organization and tradition. McCall backed me on this earlier in the thread. And it's certainly not unhealthy. You throw out those words, delusional and unhealthy, but they're hollow. You can't give them any meaning, because you can't come up with anything that really makes them true.

I'm not gonna try and tell you you are wrong, but I don't believe he got what was coming to him. I don't believe people deserve to die for a mistake like that. I also didn't say it was the first offense. There's a chance it's going to comeout that it was the second time in the week it happened (but that's merely stretched speculation at this point). All I said was I would give him another chance. Second, third, fourth, whatever. I believe in another chance. I'm not tell you to believe that. I'm just saying shut up and let me believe it.

It's true, I didn't know him, he didn't know me. I wouldn't say he wouldn't care about how the fans viewed his personal habits though. I don't think he'd want people hating him because of his mistake.

Similarly though, I don't give a rats behind what you think of me and my feelings, but you keep telling me anyways.

[BB61]

Look. Yes, a young man died because of a mistake he made. He paid the ultimate price. It's sad. I feel for his teammates, his friends, and his family. Is it wrong to be upset because he was a Cardinal and you are a Cardinals fan? Not at all. It was sudden, unexpected, and it takes you aback. I even gasped, because I remember him being a part of the Phillies organization. It's a damn shame. I don't blame you for being upset.

What I do take issue with, though, is your wording. "I'm a Cardinal." Really? What position do you play? How much money do they pay you to play said position? Are you a coach? And if so, can I get your autograph?

There's a difference between being "a [insert team name]" and "a [insert team name] fan". I'm a Phillies fan. Doesn't make a Phillie. I mean, I could probably close for them... then I'd be a Phillie. But I don't. I follow the team day in and day out, just like I have since I was old enough to know what a baseball was. They're my team, no matter what. I'm still a fan. Same thing goes with every other team in this city that I've followed.

The only exception to this is college. Then you're an actual, legal part of the organization. If you went to Louisville, then you'd be a Cardinal. Just not a Saint Louis Cardinal.

[Milo Meningocele]

"I claimed I was a Cardinal. Didn't mention anything about being part of the organization."

Here are your exact words from the first page: "I feel like I'm party of the whole Cardinals"

I think we can pretty easily construe that the way I paraphrased.

"McCall backed me on this earlier in the thread."

Yeah? Tnak and Gitlin have probably somewhat agreed with something I've said at some point, too.

[STL FANATIC]

BB61. I disagree with you. It's that simple. It's the simple I say "we", you hate when people say "we" thing. I'm not gonna convince you, but I feel like are part of that tradition, part of the makeup of these organizations. And I'm gonna say "we." And I'm gonna say I'm a Cardinal.

And niether of us are ever gonna agree with each other. And it's simply not an argument worth having. And certainly not right here right now.

I'm not sure you're stance on the other stuff, and I don't at the moment care to know, but the primary reason I responded to gitlin and milo was because of other things they were calling me out for.

The "we" vs. "they" argument is a dumb one. If a fan, and I know I'm not the only one, feels like they're connected enough to the organization to use the term "we" and to feel a part of the makeup of the organization (something you won't here many organizations argue against), then let them, let me be. You don't have to feel that way, but I and others do. And if that ruffles your feathers so much that you have to say something, then maybe it's you who should rethink their priorities.

"I claimed I was a Cardinal. Didn't mention anything about being part of the organization."

Here are your exact words from the first page: "I feel like I'm party of the whole Cardinals"

I think we can pretty easily construe that the way I paraphrased.

"McCall backed me on this earlier in the thread."

Yeah? Tnak and Gitlin have probably somewhat agreed with something I've said at some point, too.

You can see how it's construed Milo. But obviously if you look at a listing of the employees in an organization I'm not gonna show up. That's a given. So if I had said that, you'd have you're little bit of "proof" and you could go off feeling good about yourself. But I didn't. And nonetheless, I do believe the fans are an important part of the organization. And once again, I don't think you'll find many organizations disagreeing.

It really sickens me that you guys can turn threads like this into personal vendettas against others. Sometimes, even when you see something you really wanna respond to, you should just let things go because topics just don't need to go in that direction. But that never seems to be the case with you and others.

[Milo Meningocele]

And if that ruffles your feathers so much that you have to say something...

We don't have feathers. We're not Cardinals.

[STL FANATIC]

And if that ruffles your feathers so much that you have to say something...

We don't have feathers. We're not Cardinals.

Good point.

I want to also clarify something I said above about it possibly coming out that Hancock had made this same mistake earlier in the week. I mentioned it was speculation anyways, but it appears that it would be FALSE to believe that.

He was in a minor (though inches from major) accident, but the reports are that he was completely aware and did not appear to have been drunk or drinking at all. The officer who handled the scene didn't know "Josh Hancock from John Doe." The only way it comes out that drinking was involved in that case is if they reveal a major cover up.

I just wanted to clarify, because false speculation is never a good thing to have out there.

[DEAD!]

The only exception to this is college. Then you're an actual, legal part of the organization. If you went to Louisville, then you'd be a Cardinal. Just not a Saint Louis Cardinal.

Or, if you were a Catholic:

I have no idea who this is. I just did a google search on "cardinal" ....

[Phil]

Look. Yes, a young man died because of a mistake he made. He paid the ultimate price. It's sad. I feel for his teammates, his friends, and his family. Is it wrong to be upset because he was a Cardinal and you are a Cardinals fan? Not at all. It was sudden, unexpected, and it takes you aback. I even gasped, because I remember him being a part of the Phillies organization. It's a damn shame. I don't blame you for being upset.

What I do take issue with, though, is your wording. "I'm a Cardinal." Really? What position do you play? How much money do they pay you to play said position? Are you a coach? And if so, can I get your autograph?

There's a difference between being "a [insert team name]" and "a [insert team name] fan". I'm a Phillies fan. Doesn't make a Phillie. I mean, I could probably close for them... then I'd be a Phillie. But I don't. I follow the team day in and day out, just like I have since I was old enough to know what a baseball was. They're my team, no matter what. I'm still a fan. Same thing goes with every other team in this city that I've followed.

The only exception to this is college. Then you're an actual, legal part of the organization. If you went to Louisville, then you'd be a Cardinal. Just not a Saint Louis Cardinal.

But wait. Isn't the "Cardinals" nickname just the nickname for Louisville athletic teams? Or has it been expanded to include all Louisville students? Is there consensus on the issue? It's a gray line, isn't it?

Then why is it so difficult to understand that the line separating the Cardinals from being the nickname purely for the St. Louis baseball team to being the nickname for St. Louis baseball fans in general is similarly gray?

Listen, I don't mind if you have a discussion on whether fans have any legitimate claim to associate themselves so closely to the team as to use "we" phrasing when discussing said team. I also don't mind if you have a discussion on whether such a practice is healthy or not. However, to press this issue in a thread designated to discuss the death of a person, which has clearly affected several respected members of this board, is in poor taste at best.

[Milo Meningocele]

But wait. Isn't the "Cardinals" nickname just the nickname for Louisville athletic teams? Or has it been expanded to include all Louisville students? Is there consensus on the issue? It's a gray line, isn't it?

Then why is it so difficult to understand that the line separating the Cardinals from being the nickname purely for the St. Louis baseball team to being the nickname for St. Louis baseball fans in general is similarly gray?

It's not similarly gray. The Louisville students are active participants in the school's pursuits, whether academic or athletic. They belong to the institution, they are not outsiders or spectators. Pro sports fans are. Nobody calls St. Louis fans "Cardinals". They call them "Cardinals fans". There's no gray there.

[slapshot]

Every team has a fan base. In the case of the Red Sox, it's "Red Sox Nation". Other teams nicknames for their own fan bases as well. The fan base uses a collective "we" when referring to the team. It doesn't make them a part of the team, just the fan base. "We" (the Red Sox) won the World Series in 2004. It doesn't make me a member of the Red Sox. I am no more a member of the Red Sox than Chris Creamer (a Jays fan), JQK (Yankees), Tank (Mets), Joel_fiasco (Tigers), etc.

In the many times I have seen members of the fan base call the their teams "us" and "we" during highs and lows of the team, I have never seen a fan refer to himself as a member of the team itself.

You are a Cardinals fan. You are not a Cardinal, unless you cash a paycheck every 2 weeks in the name of the St. Louis Cardinals Baseball Club.

If you want to grieve as a member of the Cardinals fan base, baseball in general, sports in general, or humanity, no one should stop you. It is a very sad situation that looks more frightening and irresponsible the more news that comes out about it.

But presenting yourself under the delusion that you're a part of the team is very sad, and considering the past instances of "homerism" that have blinded you, is not a pretty picture at all.

[Joshawaggie]

Why does it seem like lately everytime someone says something around here that not 100% of the people agree with, it has to be made a big deal. Who cares if Justin says "we", really.. who the cares, its not really a big deal, why ruin threads with pointless arguing. I know its really fun for some of you to sit behind your computers and ruffle everybodies imagnary feathers, but really, cant you just sit back and relax... you dont have to type out EVERYTING that crosses your mind. If we did, some of you probably would have seeked me out and beat the crap out of me by now.

Everyone, chill. For real.

[Milo Meningocele]

Who cares if Justin says "we", really.. who the cares, its not really a big deal, why ruin threads with pointless arguing. I know its really fun for some of you to sit behind your computers and ruffle everybodies imagnary feathers, but really, cant you just sit back and relax... you dont have to type out EVERYTING that crosses your mind. If we did, some of you probably would have seeked me out and beat the crap out of me by now.

Everyone, chill. For real.

I don't think many people care that he refers to the Cards as "we". A lot of people do that; and while annoying, it's not a big deal. The main issue here is that he not only refuses to back off of--but continues to assert his inane belief that he "is a Cardinal".

Oh, and the word is "sought".

[Fred T. Jane]

Every team has a fan base. In the case of the Red Sox, it's "Red Sox Nation". Other teams nicknames for their own fan bases as well. The fan base uses a collective "we" when referring to the team. It doesn't make them a part of the team, just the fan base. "We" (the Red Sox) won the World Series in 2004. It doesn't make me a member of the Red Sox. I am no more a member of the Red Sox than Chris Creamer (a Jays fan), JQK (Yankees), Tank (Mets), Joel_fiasco (Tigers), etc.

In the many times I have seen members of the fan base call the their teams "us" and "we" during highs and lows of the team, I have never seen a fan refer to himself as a member of the team itself.

You are a Cardinals fan. You are not a Cardinal, unless you cash a paycheck every 2 weeks in the name of the St. Louis Cardinals Baseball Club.

If you want to grieve as a member of the Cardinals fan base, baseball in general, sports in general, or humanity, no one should stop you. It is a very sad situation that looks more frightening and irresponsible the more news that comes out about it.

But presenting yourself under the delusion that you're a part of the team is very sad, and considering the past instances of "homerism" that have blinded you, is not a pretty picture at all.

Albert Pujols did not approve this post...

But I did. Well done, sir.

[pcgd]

I can't believe all of your are bashing him over vocabulary, esspecially in a thread about the death of a 29 year old no matter the circumstances. Shame on you.

He's not delutional. He knows he's not a part of the organization as an employee. He knows he's a fan of the team. We're all fans of teams to different levels. Some are casual. Some more die hard. Regardless, anyone that pays for a ticket, jersey, hat, etc. has supported the team. Without the fans there are no professional sports.

Its vocabulary. If cardinals' fans say they are "Cardinals" then so be it. I don't think its a very big number that do, but I don't see how its any different than the out of the woodwork Red Sox fans calling themselves "Red Sox Nation". And trust me, I've heard plenty of Cubs fans, Yankees fans, and others call themselves the team name. "We're all Cubbies..."

I think if you want to start a thread on how you find it annoying that people say "we" when they refer to the team they support, that's fine. But this thread should be about Joshua Morgan Hancock's tragic death, how the Cardinals', their fans, and baseball fans are dealing with it, and news related to the accident. It shouldn't be a pissing war between everyone and a die-hard cardinals' fan.

[Shumway]

A bit late for me, a Cardinals fan(not lifelong, but post-Edmonds Anaheim departure), to chime in on the situation, but here goes. Obviously, it's a heartbreaking, terrible event - one that was probably avoidable, but these things have an unfortunate tendency of occurring. It's upsetting to hear these things about anyone, regardless of profession or social/cultural standing. My thought are with the Cardinals, Cardinals' fans, and the Hancock family.

[Milo Meningocele]

But this thread should be about Joshua Morgan Hancock's tragic death, how the Cardinals', their fans, and baseball fans are dealing with it, and news related to the accident.

And how nobody knew his middle name before he died, but the fanboys can't get enough of using it now.

[Joshawaggie]

Who cares if Justin says "we", really.. who the cares, its not really a big deal, why ruin threads with pointless arguing. I know its really fun for some of you to sit behind your computers and ruffle everybodies imagnary feathers, but really, cant you just sit back and relax... you dont have to type out EVERYTING that crosses your mind. If we did, some of you probably would have seeked me out and beat the crap out of me by now.

Everyone, chill. For real.

I don't think many people care that he refers to the Cards as "we". A lot of people do that; and while annoying, it's not a big deal. The main issue here is that he not only refuses to back off of--but continues to assert his inane belief that he "is a Cardinal".

Oh, and the word is "sought".

well, I dont really care if the issue is "we" or "I'm a Cardinal", its still pointless to bicker. Are you gonna change his mind? Probably not. If you do, why? How will anything be different?

oh, and the grammar police bit is wearing thin, since we're on the subject, like you bring up in every topic you post in.