Nashville Predators Being Sold?

[jkrdevil]

What burns me about this is that the NHL, Gary Bettman in particular, doesn't seem bothered by this potential move to KC. If that doesn't tell you what the NHL thinks of its country of birth, then you're a lost cause.

No it has nothing to do with having an owner that will follow league protocol and rules instead of try to bully the league to get his own way. It also has nothing to do with no teams having territory rights to Kansas City unlike Hamilton where if the league let's a team move there there a two unhappy teams. One of which is Canadian unless you want to call the Ontario Teachers anti-Canadian. I don't think the league is thrilled to be possible going to Kansas City and if Nashville meets it's goals this year they aren't going to let Del Biaggio buy his way out of the lease. They probably see it as a small upgrade than Nashville but because of ownership and territory rights they also see Kansas City as far less headaches than Hamilton would be. If you look at this critically instead of just blindly buying into the Jim Ballsillie nationalistic spin job you would see this. Again I don't Bettman hates Canada (if that were the case Edmonton would be long gone to Houston, Calgary would probably be gone too). This is the case of what's more practical. A team in KC no team might be thrilled but no team is mad over it whereas a Hamilton team makes at least 2 teams mad probably more because of the tactics Balsillie used.

I will give Balsillie credit he has used the media very effectively to spin his business transaction into one of nationalistic pride to try to bully his way into other teams' territory and after the deal broke down him and his camp have effectively spun it as a nationalistic affront to Canada. And it seems just by reading this and other hockey related boards (which I admit may be a bad sample) have bought it hook, line, and sinker. I'm not surprised nationalism is a strong force. There is a reason why historically politicians have used to it to sell going to war.

[gojetsgo]

For what it is worth I believe KC has had the highest ratings for the NHL than in other non-NHL city.

ummm... you've got to be kidding. Maybe you're thinking of highest ratings than any other American non-NHL city. Even then, I highly doubt it.

I remember reading a stat that showed that more people were watching the 2006 SCF in Winnipeg than in Carolina. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Hamilton had better ratings for the 2007 SCF than Anaheim. I'd be seriously surprised if that was wrong.

Remember, Game 3 of the 2007 SCF drew the lowest ratings in prime-time NBC history. But yeah, I'm sure they're watching in KC.

[jkrdevil]

For what it is worth I believe KC has had the highest ratings for the NHL than in other non-NHL city.

ummm... you've got to be kidding. Maybe you're thinking of highest ratings than any other American non-NHL city. Even then, I highly doubt it.

I remember reading a stat that showed that more people were watching the 2006 SCF in Winnipeg than in Carolina. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Hamilton had better ratings for the 2007 SCF than Anaheim. I'd be seriously surprised if that was wrong.

Remember, Game 3 of the 2007 SCF drew the lowest ratings in prime-time NBC history. But yeah, I'm sure they're watching in KC.

Yes I meant American market and that is what I heard thus why I said take it for what it's worth. Remember you can't compare US and Canadian ratings because they measure different things. In Canada they measure viewers in the US they measure households (which can have more than 1 viewer). I'm not saying that if they both measured the same thing US would outdraw Canada I'm saying it is probably closer than just looking straight at the numbers.

[CC97]

Remember, Game 3 of the 2007 SCF drew the lowest ratings in prime-time NBC history. But yeah, I'm sure they're watching in KC.

I looked it up a few weeks ago, I don't remember exact numbers but I believe numbers for game 2 of the 2007 finals was 500,000ish viewers in the US and 3,000,000ish viewers in Canada... a considerable difference for a country 10% the size of the other.

[Your Name Here]

Households, Nielson measures households, not viewers. Besides, half of the Los Angeles area doesn't get Versus. And since the Ducks were playing against thin air...

[gojetsgo]

Remember, Game 3 of the 2007 SCF drew the lowest ratings in prime-time NBC history. But yeah, I'm sure they're watching in KC.

I looked it up a few weeks ago, I don't remember exact numbers but I believe numbers for game 2 of the 2007 finals was 500,000ish viewers in the US and 3,000,000ish viewers in Canada... a considerable difference for a country 10% the size of the other.

To put it in perspective, based on your numbers:

0.17% of the US population was watching that game.

10% of the Canadian population was watching the game.

That's about a 60:1 ratio of viewership in the US vs Canada, which is probably a good indicator of interest in hockey in Canada vs. the US as a whole.

Regardless of Balsillie's tactics, the NHL BOG and Bettman, by rejecting Balsillie, are proving they really are complete idiots when it comes to running a business. Put the game back where people care about it.

[CC97]

And since the Ducks were playing against thin air...

Right, so it's okay to use the "only 1 u.s. team was playing" argument for low US ratings... did you know those high Canadian ratings were with only 1 canadian team playing too?

[OMMF]

That's about a 60:1 ratio of viewership in the US vs Canada, which is probably a good indicator of interest in hockey in Canada vs. the US as a whole.

You know you can't do that. Stick to facts. It works much better that way.

[jkrdevil]

Households, Nielson measures households, not viewers. Besides, half of the Los Angeles area doesn't get Versus. And since the Ducks were playing against thin air...

I believe Nielson measure households in the US but Nielson (or whoever does ratings in Canada) measures it in Viewers in Canada.

[gojetsgo]

That's about a 60:1 ratio of viewership in the US vs Canada, which is probably a good indicator of interest in hockey in Canada vs. the US as a whole.

You know you can't do that. Stick to facts. It works much better that way.

Fair enough. But the fact that the Canadian audience outnumbers the American one by a 6:1 ratio for that game is pretty staggering. I'd like to see Bettman try and spin those numbers to perpetuate his lies.

[jkrdevil]

That's about a 60:1 ratio of viewership in the US vs Canada, which is probably a good indicator of interest in hockey in Canada vs. the US as a whole.

You know you can't do that. Stick to facts. It works much better that way.

Fair enough. But the fact that the Canadian audience outnumbers the American one by a 6:1 ratio for that game is pretty staggering. I'd like to see Bettman try and spin those numbers to perpetuate his lies.

What lies? I don't believe he has ever said that hockey was more popular in the states?

Also it should be noted that the ratio is probably lower than that when you consider that the ratings in the two countries are measured differently. Also I noticed that you are using the Versus numbers which is a cable station. Cable ratings overall are much lower than network ratings. So if you are going to compare ratings (which you really can't because they use different measures) it has to be NBC to CBC because they are both "over-the-air" channels.

Again no one is saying the league isn't more popular in Canada than the US. One would be a fool to say that. However the way you are trying to argue the ratio difference of fans is flawed.

[KCScout76]

A team in Kansas City would be great - not sure they would support it well. Not that we would not welcome the team, it would be a great benefit to our community. The NHL needs to consider a lot than just money on this issue. If they move to KC, they'd be gone within five years. The NHL should put another team in Canada - $$$ may only amount to 40% but in the long run it's a better move.

If we do get the Predators - great, I hope we don't name them the Monarachs. That name is reserved for our tradition with the negro league. I love the name 'Blades' - even though my name is KCScout, that name is in the past. It should be something new if they do change it.

However Kansas City Predators has a nice ring to it!

[kewp80]

I'd like to see KC Blades, or something to do with the railroad or BBQ industry, however the BBQ industry could be too cliche.

[gojetsgo]

That's about a 60:1 ratio of viewership in the US vs Canada, which is probably a good indicator of interest in hockey in Canada vs. the US as a whole.

You know you can't do that. Stick to facts. It works much better that way.

Fair enough. But the fact that the Canadian audience outnumbers the American one by a 6:1 ratio for that game is pretty staggering. I'd like to see Bettman try and spin those numbers to perpetuate his lies.

What lies? I don't believe he has ever said that hockey was more popular in the states?

Also it should be noted that the ratio is probably lower than that when you consider that the ratings in the two countries are measured differently. Also I noticed that you are using the Versus numbers which is a cable station. Cable ratings overall are much lower than network ratings. So if you are going to compare ratings (which you really can't because they use different measures) it has to be NBC to CBC because they are both "over-the-air" channels.

Again no one is saying the league isn't more popular in Canada than the US. One would be a fool to say that. However the way you are trying to argue the ratio difference of fans is flawed.

Bettman has repeatedly spun that interest of hockey in the US has never been higher. He commonly cites record attendance as an indication of this, while failing to point out the teams are collectively giving away millions of tickets. Many in the hockey world have said that Gary's southern experiment has failed. Yet, he refuses to acknowledge any weakness in his master plan.

[HedleyLamarr]

10% of the Canadian population was watching the game.

For a country that lives and breathes hockey, seeing that only 1 person out of 10 in Canada was watching the pinnacle of the hockey season seems really, really strange....

[jkrdevil]

That's about a 60:1 ratio of viewership in the US vs Canada, which is probably a good indicator of interest in hockey in Canada vs. the US as a whole.

You know you can't do that. Stick to facts. It works much better that way.

Fair enough. But the fact that the Canadian audience outnumbers the American one by a 6:1 ratio for that game is pretty staggering. I'd like to see Bettman try and spin those numbers to perpetuate his lies.

What lies? I don't believe he has ever said that hockey was more popular in the states?

Also it should be noted that the ratio is probably lower than that when you consider that the ratings in the two countries are measured differently. Also I noticed that you are using the Versus numbers which is a cable station. Cable ratings overall are much lower than network ratings. So if you are going to compare ratings (which you really can't because they use different measures) it has to be NBC to CBC because they are both "over-the-air" channels.

Again no one is saying the league isn't more popular in Canada than the US. One would be a fool to say that. However the way you are trying to argue the ratio difference of fans is flawed.

Bettman has repeatedly spun that interest of hockey in the US has never been higher. He commonly cites record attendance as an indication of this, while failing to point out the teams are collectively giving away millions of tickets. Many in the hockey world have said that Gary's southern experiment has failed. Yet, he refuses to acknowledge any weakness in his master plan.

Millions of tickets? You have to be kidding me? Do you read what you write? You are sounding like Tank in a political debate.

[gojetsgo]

Millions of tickets? You have to be kidding me? Do you read what you write? You are sounding like Tank in a political debate.

I'm getting sick of having to justify every word I say, but YES millions of tickets. Numbers for the whole season have not been released, but at the mid-point of the season 881,135 tickets were given away. The million mark was certainly eclipsed in just one season. Globe and mail report

[Brian in Boston]

* Canadian hockey fans will grumble about the state of the NHL under Gary Bettman's leadership, particularly the decision to place more franchises in emerging U.S. markets at the expense of Canadian cities, but there is every indication that their die-hard support of ice hockey at it's most elite major professional level will keep them tuning into Hockey Night in Canada, snapping-up every available ticket to the existing six Canadian NHL teams and purchasing the league's licensed products whenever they get the chance.

* The aforementioned situation being the case, NHL executives and owners know that they have a captive audience for their product in Canada whether they ever grant another Canadian market a franchise via expansion/relocation or not.

* Owners of the existing six Canadian NHL franchises have very little to gain by siding with efforts to bring additional Canadian markets into the league, as the six current Canadian teams get to split the die-hard support of 32,777,304 Canadians amongst them. Why share the wealth by allowing the establishment of additional Canadian NHL franchises that will leach away portions of their existing fan-bases?

* While the media - particularly the biased Canadian press - seems intent upon painting a picture of the Nashville Predators being granted carte blanche to relocate to Kansas City without having to follow the letter of the law regarding the team's current legally-binding lease and the NHL's by-laws regarding franchise relocation, Messrs. Leipold, DelBaggio and Bettman have given no indication that this is the case.

* Mr. Balsillie's attempt to buy the Nashville Predators was foiled because of his failure to sign a binding purchase agreement, as well as his blatant flaunting of NHL rules regarding the relocation of the team - most egregiously illustrated by his signing of an exclusivity agreement with Copps Arena and his solicitation of season-ticket deposits for the "Hamilton Predators". Based upon his actions, his potential fellow-owners in the NHL wanted no part of the "maverick" becoming part of their ranks.

Bottom line? The Predators are either going to be sold to Mr. DelBaggio or a local ownership group in Nashville. Once that happens, the team will remain in Nashville until such time as the provisions of the franchise's lease are fulfilled. Once the lease has run it's course, or a failure to reach attendance thresh-holds has voided the lease, a decision will be made on whether the franchise is best served by remaining in Nashville or relocating to another city. The letter of the law regarding the lease and the NHL's by-laws will be maintained. The team will most certainly not be relocating to Hamilton/Southern Ontario. Given the manner in which he has attempted to force his will upon the NHL's owners, it is all but certain that Mr. Balsillie will not be joining their ranks soon - if at all.

[Roger Clemente]

Millions of tickets? You have to be kidding me? Do you read what you write? You are sounding like Tank in a political debate.

I'm getting sick of having to justify every word I say, but YES millions of tickets. Numbers for the whole season have not been released, but at the mid-point of the season 881,135 tickets were given away. The million mark was certainly eclipsed in just one season. Globe and mail report

Considering there are approximately about 22.9 million seats total to see sold for the entire regular season, 1 or 2 out of 22 tickets given away is not a horrible scenario.

--Roger "Time?" Clemente.

[IceCap]

What burns me about this is that the NHL, Gary Bettman in particular, doesn't seem bothered by this potential move to KC. If that doesn't tell you what the NHL thinks of its country of birth, then you're a lost cause.

No it has nothing to do with having an owner that will follow league protocol and rules instead of try to bully the league to get his own way. It also has nothing to do with no teams having territory rights to Kansas City unlike Hamilton where if the league let's a team move there there a two unhappy teams. One of which is Canadian unless you want to call the Ontario Teachers anti-Canadian. I don't think the league is thrilled to be possible going to Kansas City and if Nashville meets it's goals this year they aren't going to let Del Biaggio buy his way out of the lease. They probably see it as a small upgrade than Nashville but because of ownership and territory rights they also see Kansas City as far less headaches than Hamilton would be. If you look at this critically instead of just blindly buying into the Jim Ballsillie nationalistic spin job you would see this. Again I don't Bettman hates Canada (if that were the case Edmonton would be long gone to Houston, Calgary would probably be gone too). This is the case of what's more practical. A team in KC no team might be thrilled but no team is mad over it whereas a Hamilton team makes at least 2 teams mad probably more because of the tactics Balsillie used.

I will give Balsillie credit he has used the media very effectively to spin his business transaction into one of nationalistic pride to try to bully his way into other teams' territory and after the deal broke down him and his camp have effectively spun it as a nationalistic affront to Canada. And it seems just by reading this and other hockey related boards (which I admit may be a bad sample) have bought it hook, line, and sinker. I'm not surprised nationalism is a strong force. There is a reason why historically politicians have used to it to sell going to war.

Listen up. I have dealt with a lot of crap from you, STL, HedleyLamarr, and others out there who continue to bash my country. I've held back, mainly because two out of the three of the names I've listed are "established members", and we all saw what happened to TCR when you get on the bad side of an "established" member, but it, I've listened to this dribble long enough. If I get banned/suspended, fine. I just hope the mod team has enough decency to tell me before hand.

In response to the post I quoted, no I agree, Bettman probably doesn't "hate" Canada, if he did I doubt he'd even be involved in hockey in the first place. Still, I firmly believe that as long as he's Commissioner he'll do everything he can to keep an other team out of Canada. He doesn't "hate" Canada, he's just very stubborn/stupid. He wants to grow the game in non-traditional markets, and its worked to a degree, but he's to think to understand that even with this growth there were southern markets that failed, and he's to stupid to see that even with all the growth in southern markets, hockey still is, and will be for a very long time, a nitch sport in the US, just a level or two above soccer.

JKR, don't play me for a fool. Would I love to see an other Canadian team in the NHL, particularly one in southern Ontario? Yes, both out of nationalistic pride for my country and for the selfish reason that I would like to attend a "home" NHL game every now and then. The Leafs aren't the Devils, JKR. Getting Devils' tickets doesn't seem to be an issue, even if they're winning. Do you have any idea how hard it is to get Leafs tickets? People inherit season tickets for crying out loud.

But like I said don't play me for a fool. Despite how much I love my country, despite how much I want the opportunity to see a "home" game this side of the border, I wouldn't come out in favor of a Hamilton-based team if it wasn't a good idea. But it is. You claim that Hamilton's support wouldn't be as high as predicted. As someone who lives in the region we're "discussing" I can assure you, the support for a Hamilton club will be on par with the support the current six NHL teams receive, which blows away the amount of support they get in Nashville, or they will get in KC.

I want to see this happen because it will benefit the sport of hockey, because it would provide me, and millions of others, with a chance to see NHL hockey live, and because I admit, I'm proud of my country. No, I'm not blinded by Jim Basillie's "nationalistic spin job" (who has apparently become a master propagandist since we last met him ). Rather, my reasons for believing in a Hamilton NHL-based team are a mixture of plain, cold facts and nationalism, where neither obstructs the other.

As for your rant about Canadian nationalism used to stir this whole thing up, so :censored:ing what? Business-wise a team in Hamilton would succeed, if the result of a team in Hamilton is an upsurge in Canadian nationalism, so what? How is that a bad thing, or are you only allowed to be proud of your country if you're an American?

Just as baseball's "America's pastime" hockey is "Canada's game."

We invented the game in its modern form (BTW Loren T. Jane, the game those Dutch guys were playing wasn't hockey, it was a modified version of golf played on ice). We nurtured the game, we exported it to the world, and we still play it better then anyone else. In short, hockey isn't simply a game Canadians happen to be good at, it's part of what makes us Canadian. It's part of our culture, part of who we are as a nation.

More importantly though, and it pains me to say this, but it's true, it's one of the few things we can as a nation can still come to together and feel proud of.

Politicians have reduced the Canadian military to a glorified police force (and I say that with family currently serving), the Bloc and similar movement attempt to tear the country apart by the seams. The sacrifices we have made to the world in it's two most devistating conflicts have been reduced to mere footnotes.

Our true history, the people and events that defined Canada, aren't even taught anymore in schools because the material is to unPC. The politicians refuse to even call this country by its proper name. In short, thanks to 60+ years of bickering, the re-writing of history, and an attempt to make Canada 100% PC, the Dominion of Canada, comprised of real Canadians of aboriginal, English, French, and multicultural heritage, proud of their history and monarchical form of government and believing that their history is one of accomplishments and common achievements has given way to just "Canada" a country with a sterile culture, a country of mediocrity, a country with no identity.

With hockey though, we're still the best. There's no calls of separatism, or movements to pretend our past victories in the world's tournaments didn't happen out of fear of offending someone. We just come together to root for our team, our teams, and our players. It's one of the few aspects of what makes Canada Canadian that we can all still unite behind. We love the game, we live the game, we support the teams who play within our borders. Look it up, even when support dips for Canadian franchises, the support is still stronger then anything you'll ever get in Nashville. If you put a team in Hamilton it will flourish. Put a team in KC or Houston, and you're gambling again. Keep the team in Nashville, and you're just asking for a contraction, with a continued loss of money until the faithful day comes.

"But a team in Hamilton impedes on the territorial rights of the Leafs and Sabres..."

First of all, the Sabres. Canadians only buy season tickets to their games because tickets are impossible to find for the Leafs. Very few are actually Sabres fans, they just want to see NHL hockey, and with increased border patrol measures taking effect, it will be even more of a hassle to get to a Sabres game.

Hamilton is only considered part of the Sabres' territory because of geography. You can count the number of hockey fans in Hamilton who consider themselves Sabres fans first and foremost on one hand. There's no strong loyalty to the team on this side of the border. When it comes right down to it nationalism plays a huge part. The Sabres are an American team, plain and simple.

Perhaps now that the Sabres are completive again they should focus on how to draw fans from their own locale. Maybe advertise themselves as a winning alternative to the Bills who are stuck in mediocrity? Draw fans from your own city. The support for hockey in Buffalo is there, maybe the Sabres should try to tap into that rather then leaching off of fans from an other country.

Yes, thanks for reminding me JKR, that the Leafs do are in fact a Canadian team. Sometimes it slips my mind

Look, I love the Leafs, and I'll probably be a Leafs fan until I die, but MLSE as it exists now is a joke, a farce disgracing the name of the franchise. You know why the team hasn't won a Cup since Conn Smythe sold them? Because every owner since then has been more concerned with making money then actually winning. Smythe cared about putting a competitive team on the ice. Ballard, and MLSE after him, are content to make a profit and nothing more. So as much as I love the team, I'm less then thrilled about the team's current ownership, to say the least. So they may in fact oppose a team placed in Hamilton, but that wouldn't surprise me. The team is run by idiots anyway. Opposing the creation of a new rivalry that would benefit the Leafs makes to much sense both business-wise and hockey-wise for MLSE to support it. You know what, maybe Jim Basille should buy the Leafs. Next to the Leafs winning the Cup, that's probably the best news I can hope for as a Leafs fan at the moment.

And no, the loss of Hamilton's support won't even make a dent in the Leafs' fanbase. The Leafs are one of the most popular teams in the NHL. Hamilton getting a team won't effect ticket sales, fan support, or merchandise sails in way significant enough to hurt the Leafs.

STL, Nashville's failed as a hockey market, so much so that we didn't have to wait a decade to find out. But hey, looks like the NHL's going to take your line of thinking and wait that ten-fifteen years. What then? What then when they're still in the basement of NHL attendance? Are you going to push to for an other decade and a half? If not, then what will think about a move to Hamilton? Eh, you'll probably think of some excuse to keep the team stateside anyway, you'll probably push for them to end up in KC.

If you're still pushing for the team to stay in Nashville after 10-15 more years, then your delusional homerism will have poked its ugly head once again. In this day and age rivalry games are all the Blues really have left to play for, eh? But don't worry, even if they do leave Nashville, you'll probably keep them as a rival in KC.

Bottom line? You say the fans of Nashville don't deserve to lose their hockey team. That's crap. If the fans actually showed up to support the team then they wouldn't deserve to lose them. But they don't show up to support the team. The team almost wins the President's Trophy and the city still doesn't care. No, the city of Nashville doesn't deserve to keep the Predators. But it seems they will so Bettman and the BoG can pretend the NHL's still a major player on the US sports scene.

You go on about how I'm a lost cause because I can't see that Nashville's growing as a NHL market. Again, crap. I can see clearly that Nashville is a gigantic failure as a NHL market. You know what will convince me that Nashville's growing as a hockey market? When the team finishes in the top 3 overall and manages to do better then the bottom twenty in attendance.

When it comes right down to it, you'll look for any excuse to keep the team in Nashville, or at worst, move to KC, because you don't want to lose a rivalry with the Blues. If the majority of Blues fans actually get excited when they play the Preds, they most be the only fans who do.

HedleyLamarr. The "lets blindly support southern hockey teams even if they're failing in their respective markets to annoy the Canadians" act you and Rams seem to have going got old a long time ago. I don't want to "spite" the US when it comes to hockey. I don't really care one way or the other about the city of Nashville, or the Predators. I simply want a "local" NHL team I can get tickets to. The market's clearly not there in Nashville, so why not move them to Hamilton where they'll be appreciated? But hey, continue on your quest to bash my country with witty one-liners simply because you don't like Canadian hockey teams. Go ahead, you're just acting in the most hypocritical way possible.

BiB. Why should the NHL put a team in an already "captive" market? Maybe because the reason the market is "captive" because the fans there actually love the game. Maybe because the six teams in Canada, despite making up only 20% of the NHL provide for 40% of the league's revenue? Canadians will pay to see NHL-level hockey Brian. Tennesseans won't. The Preds' 2006-2007 attendance numbers and a comparison of the amount of season tickets sold by the Nashville Predators and Jim Basille's Hamilton Predators proves this beyond a shadow of a doubt. So maybe the NHL should preach to a captive audience.

Trying to hook the average American fan didn't work, and that failed experiment has almost pushed the NHL to WNBA levels in terms of irrelevance on the American sports landscape.

The NHL needs to get back to marketing to its true fans in the Northern US, Canada, and the southern markets that support the game. They need to start targeting hockey fans. Hamilton has those, Nashville doesn't. Bottom line? The choir is exactly who the NHL should be preaching to at the moment.

Yes, you are right about our commitment to hockey though. No matter how deep Gary Bettman sinks the NHL we'll still watch. Hockey is part of our national identity, so of course we'll continue to watch the NHL as the sport's top professional league. Like when I was watching wrestling in the 90's. I stuck by WCW till the very last Nitro. So will Canadian stick with the NHL until the league collapses on itself.

We just don't want to see that happen, which is why we want to see Bettman shown the door.

Goodnight, and G-d Save the Queen and the Dominion of Canada.

Have a great Canada Day