Austin in af2

[Brian in Boston]

Austin metro now is about a million people...

"About" a million? Austin's metropolitan area population easily exceeds a million people... and it has for quite some time. The 2006 Metro Austin population was estimated at 1,513,565. The census recorded the 2000 Metro Austin population at 1,249,763. As far back as the 1990 United States Census, the Metro Austin population was pushing a million people (846,227 people).

[rams80]

Arena Leagues suck. No one wants to see it, even in a football hungry town like Austin....bring on the AAFL and UFL!!!! Real fans want REAL football.

Umm...I want to see it, so you are wrong on the "No one" front.

Also...AAFL is stillborn, UFL most likely will be stillborn. AFL has been around for more than two decades. Check and mate.

[cyandlux]

Arena Leagues suck. No one wants to see it, even in a football hungry town like Austin....bring on the AAFL and UFL!!!! Real fans want REAL football.

Wrong. Real fans will watch football no matter what form it's in.

I have YET to hear of a sell out in arena football (maybe Orlando or Arizona). Nor does any media outlet actually cover it like the NFL or MLB or Nascar even. Its B level talent playing a bastardized version of a real game. Whats next indoor cricket...oh crap, what, that exists!?! Vegas will fold soon. So thats 2 out of the AFL probably this year.

When the new outdoor leagues take all the talent you'll see.

I went to a Sacramento Knights v Dallas Sidekicks game. It was the most boring thing I have ever seen. Way too much scoring. Its the same with the AFL ....why watch the whole game when you can just watch the fourth quarter and see who scores last...if you even care to.

I saw Sacramento Surge v Frankfurt galaxy....it was awesome...and a blowout...but still awesome.

[MattF]

Arena Leagues suck. No one wants to see it, even in a football hungry town like Austin....bring on the AAFL and UFL!!!! Real fans want REAL football.

Wrong. Real fans will watch football no matter what form it's in.

I have YET to hear of a sell out in arena football (maybe Orlando or Arizona). Nor does any media outlet actually cover it like the NFL or MLB or Nascar even. Its B level talent playing a bastardized version of a real game. Whats next indoor cricket...oh crap, what, that exists!?! Vegas will fold soon. So thats 2 out of the AFL probably this year.

When the new outdoor leagues take all the talent you'll see.

I went to a Sacramento Knights v Dallas Sidekicks game. It was the most boring thing I have ever seen. Way too much scoring. Its the same with the AFL ....why watch the whole game when you can just watch the fourth quarter and see who scores last...if you even care to.

I saw Sacramento Surge v Frankfurt galaxy....it was awesome...and a blowout...but still awesome.

If you have never heard of a sell out in the AFL then you're deaf. And that supossed B-level talent produced a fromer NFL MVP. Is Clint Dolzel on the same level of Peyton Manning? No. But is he still a GREAT player? YES! And as a proud AFL Message Board member, I'll tell you we havn't had national attention, but the league is now in it's 21st season, and has it's own minor league. Not to mention many attempted coyycats. Sounds pretty sucsessful to me. And if the UFL takes all the talent I will come on here and praise you, because that won't happen, because it probably won't get off the ground! Don't even try to compare it to soccer, because they're two entirely different things. And the reason Las Vegas might fold is because it has a crappy owner. And if your gonna come into this thread and talk trash about a league that has celebrities, and NFL owners, in the leauge, you might want to check your facts before you do so.

[BB61]

Arena Leagues suck. No one wants to see it, even in a football hungry town like Austin....bring on the AAFL and UFL!!!! Real fans want REAL football.

Wrong. Real fans will watch football no matter what form it's in.

I have YET to hear of a sell out in arena football (maybe Orlando or Arizona). Nor does any media outlet actually cover it like the NFL or MLB or Nascar even. Its B level talent playing a bastardized version of a real game. Whats next indoor cricket...oh crap, what, that exists!?! Vegas will fold soon. So thats 2 out of the AFL probably this year.

When the new outdoor leagues take all the talent you'll see.

I went to a Sacramento Knights v Dallas Sidekicks game. It was the most boring thing I have ever seen. Way too much scoring. Its the same with the AFL ....why watch the whole game when you can just watch the fourth quarter and see who scores last...if you even care to.

I saw Sacramento Surge v Frankfurt galaxy....it was awesome...and a blowout...but still awesome.

Wow. You dripped some ignorance on my shoe.

It's not the NFL, true. But you know what? People actually go to these games.

Let's compare it to the NBA, shall we?

New Orleans Voodoo 16,645

Milwaukee Bucks 16,487

Denver Nuggets 16,442

Minnesota T'Wolves 15,960

Philadelphia Soul 15,841

Tampa Bay Storm 15,788

Seattle Sonics 15,631

Chicago Rush 15,609

Charlotte Bobcats 15,603

Portland Trail Blazers 15,175

Philadelphia 76ers 15,067

Colorado Crush 15,049

Memphis Grizzlies 14,688

So there you go. Five teams ended up with average attendances of 15,000 or more, and one team had a better average than eight NBA teams, "major" sports franchises.

You know why people go to these games? It's something different. It's affordable. Even NFL people have jumped into it as owners and as coaches. These players do have talent. The AAFL? The UFL? Are you kidding? They're abstract. This is the 21st season of the league, and it's still pretty popular enough to bring in 12,000 people a game. You think these new outdoor leagues will draw as well? Pfft.

When the UFL and AAFL fold after a season (if you're lucky), I'd like you to publicly apologize for your stupidity and your ignorance. And I'll make sure you do it.

[kewp80]

Well said gentlemen, although I think John Elway is ruining the league by getting rid of ironman ball, I will still support my Chicago Rush on thier way to back-to-back championships!

Also, word is that the NFL Europe may fold after this year, think this will boost the talent level of the AFL?

It also seems that there are successful and unsuccessful teams in the AFL, but the successful ones way out the unsuccessful ones. I see Austin moving to af2 as a good thing, where they will be successful. Hopefully this makes room for some stronger ownership in a better market. Although it does make me wonder if the AFL is ever gonna make it to 20 teams.

[DarkJourney]

I keep hearing that the af2 Tulsa Talons might sit out the 2008 season and them move up to the AFL in 2009 as an expansion team. They are a very successful franchise. Never had a losing season. Plus there is a new 18,000-seat arena being built in Tulsa as well. The CHL's Tulsa Oilers and the NBA D-League's Tulsa 66ers will also play at the new arena.

Hey kewp80. I'm looking forward to a SaberCats-Rush rematch in the playoffs.

[kewp80]

Haha, I'm looking forward to that as well, but I dunno, I think Kansas City is coming in as the dark horse and could turn some heads.

But if the Sabercats and Rush do play each other I'm expecting the same outcome as last year!

[DarkJourney]

Haha, I'm looking forward to that as well, but I dunno, I think Kansas City is coming in as the dark horse and could turn some heads.

But if the Sabercats and Rush do play each other I'm expecting the same outcome as last year!

We wil see

I do agree with you about Kansas City. Hope they throttle Colorado.

[Brian in Boston]

It's not the NFL, true. But you know what? People actually go to these games.

Let's compare it to the NBA, shall we?

New Orleans Voodoo 16,645

Milwaukee Bucks 16,487

Denver Nuggets 16,442

Minnesota T'Wolves 15,960

Philadelphia Soul 15,841

Tampa Bay Storm 15,788

Seattle Sonics 15,631

Chicago Rush 15,609

Charlotte Bobcats 15,603

Portland Trail Blazers 15,175

Philadelphia 76ers 15,067

Colorado Crush 15,049

Memphis Grizzlies 14,688

So there you go. Five teams ended up with average attendances of 15,000 or more, and one team had a better average than eight NBA teams, "major" sports franchises.

Look, I've attended a number of AFL games... and actually enjoyed myself while doing so. I've watched games on television... albeit, when there was nothing else on that piqued my curiosity. I think it's commendable - and, quite frankly, amazing - that the league has managed to pull off the near-miracle of surving through 21 seasons without ever fielding the same lineup of franchises two seasons in a row. All of that said, attempting to establish the legitimacy of the AFL by comparing the attendance figures of some of it's member franchises to those of NBA teams is overkill. In fact, it borders on the ludicrous.

First of all, the NBA attendance figures you cite are off - at least in as much as the 2006-2007 season is concerned. The final 2006-2007 regular season home attendance average for each of the NBA teams you listed was as follows:

Denver - 17,230

Portland - 16,360

Milwaukee - 16,186

Minnesota - 15,998

Seattle 15,955

Charlotte - 15,549

Philadelphia - 15,011

Memphis - 14,654

Therefore, the final 2007 regular season home attendance averages for the AFL franchises you cited slot in as follows (in bold print):

Denver - 17,230

New Orleans - 16,645

Portland - 16,360

Milwaukee - 16,186

Minnesota - 15,998

Seattle - 15,955

Philadelphia - 15,841

Tampa Bay - 15,788

Chicago - 15,609

Charlotte - 15,549

Colorado - 15,049

Philadelphia - 15,011

Memphis - 14,654

Not quite as impressive as your initial comparison.

If your goal was to contrast the "Top 5" average AFL team home attendances against the "Bottom 8" average NBA team home attendances, the AFL franchises slot in as follows (in [bold print):

New Orleans - 16,645

Milwaukee - 16,186

Minnesota - 15,998

Seattle - 15,955

Philadelphia - 15,841

Tampa Bay - 15,788

Chicago - 15,609

Atlanta - 15,594

Charlotte - 15,549

Indiana - 15,359

Colorado - 15,049

Philadelphia - 15,011

Memphis - 14,654

Incidentally, this comparison is slightly better than that which you initially posted.

That said, comparing the 2007 average home attendance for the AFL's top drawing teams against the 2006-2007 average home attendance for the NBA's bottom-dwellers in the category is hardly an equitable comparison. A better question is, "How do the AFL's top teams match-up against the NBA's top teams in the average home attendance category?" Let's see (with AFL teams in bold print):

Chicago - 22,160

Detroit - 22,076

Cleveland - 20,436

Dallas - 20,350

Miami - 19,725

New Orleans - 16,645

Philadelphia - 15,841

Tampa Bay - 15,788

Chicago - 15,609

Colorado - 15,049

New Orleans, the AFL's best-drawing team, would rank no better than 21st in NBA home attendance. Philadelphia, Tampa Bay and Chicago would occupy slots 27 through 29 out of the two leagues' combined 49 franchises. Colorado ranks 33rd out of the 49 combined AFL and NBA teams in attendance. Not so rosy a comparison.

How about comparing the NBA's attendance cellar-dwellers with the AFL's dregs in the category:

Atlanta - 15,594

Charlotte - 15,549

Indiana - 15,359

Philadelphia - 15,011

Memphis - 14,654

Arizona - 10,007

New York - 9,439

Nashville - 7,961

Grand Rapids - 6,549

Las Vegas - 5,383

Bottom line? The NBA is a bona fide top-tier major professional sports league - one of the most successful pro sports entities on the face of the planet . The AFL is a niche sport that - despite pockets of die-hard fan support and "Big Four" U.S. sports team owners who have bought AFL teams as tax write-offs - struggles to maintain it's rather precarious position on the crowded U.S. sports scene.

[Sodboy13]

If you want to discuss the AFL on its merits - and there are plenty of them, it's a game I've grown to love - fine. But you would be wise to avoid playing the attendance card when it comes to this league. They've taken a page from the MLS playbook when it comes to the philosophy of "if it looks like more people are coming to our games, then more people would come to our games."

Your primary offenders:

Austin. May not have had 10,000 butts in the seats for a single one of their home games, according to some reports.

Utah. You can't have 14,000 there when the place is nearly half-empty and the corner seats in the upper tank are tarped-off.

Tampa Bay. Drawing sparse crowds to the Forum during their atrocious first half, and still reporting 15K-plus crowds.

Las Vegas. Mother of all things holy, please kill this franchise. An embarrassment to the league since its days in New Jersey. The owner (who moved a QB to KR and a WR to the bench, and then to Chicago this season to avoid paying them incentive bonuses) is too stubborn to fold, and the league doesn't want him to sell because the legitimate value of the team shows how bloated the expansion fee is (see also: Indiana Firebirds, 2004.) Moved to an 8-9K seat area this year (after being granted a league exemption to do so,) and still couldn't fill it halfway. Played their last home game of the season at 1:30 p.m. on a non-holiday Monday. Were lucky to draw 500 from the looks of the highlights, still announced 5,000. Team practiced in the arena parking lot, under the Vegas sun, and for the last week, next to a festering circus camp.

Other teams have been a bit over generous on the attendance numbers on several occasions, too. I went to a Rush game and saw 10-11K announced as 14K. But when they sold out, they legitimately packed the joint. New Orleans has been crazy for the Voodoo, and Colorado, Dallas, Philly, Georgia, Columbus, and surprisingly L.A. all seem to have solid followings.

I think the AFL has a place in the professional sports landscape, as things align toward a "Big 3" (NFL, MLB, NBA) and the "Next 3" (NHL, AFL, MLS.) More stable ownership has arrived, as opposed to fly-by-nighters who one day decide "Wheeee! I want a football team!" I think there's a core of 12-15 teams with stable ownership that is built for the long-term, and isn't going to be pulling up stakes after not turning a profit after Season 1. Other like-minded groups will come in as these steady entities increase the leagues legitimacy. That bodes well for the future health of the league.

Is it ever going to overtake any of the 3 major sports in popularity? Doubtful. But if they stay on the right track, and don't turn themselves into a bunch of Florida Bobcats and Houston Thunderbears, I see no reason not to believe I'll be taking the kids out to an AFL game in 20 years. Assuming, of course, that I have kids.

[BB61]

Brian, you do have a point. But the reason why I was comparing the AFL to the NBA was merely to combat the insinuation that "no one goes to those games."

I realize that I'm comparing apples and oranges, and as sodboy said, the AFL is a second-tier league, and probably will always be. I'm not disputing that.

But I do think, niche sport or not, and amped up attendence numbers or not (and yes, the Soul do it too -- I've been to seven games this year and though they draw well, they don't hit 17,000 all the time like they announce), the sport is more credible and will still be around long after the AAFL and the UFL have folded, in one form or another.

[rams80]

I keep hearing that the af2 Tulsa Talons might sit out the 2008 season and them move up to the AFL in 2009 as an expansion team. They are a very successful franchise. Never had a losing season. Plus there is a new 18,000-seat arena being built in Tulsa as well. The CHL's Tulsa Oilers and the NBA D-League's Tulsa 66ers will also play at the new arena.

Hey kewp80. I'm looking forward to a SaberCats-Rush rematch in the playoffs.

I just thought they would sit out because of "arena issues" (new arena's not done, but the old arena's a hole).

Personally, I don't know if the AFL will ever reach 20 teams, although I think they would be better served in reacing that "goal" by cutting the expansion fees a tad. While teams are prone to over-report/outright lie on attendance, I don't think the long-term health of the league is in jeopardy either.