US State and National Flags

[ldswoosh33]

Colorado

Texas

New Mexico

[IceCap]

The "US Civil Flag."

The urban legend behind this flag, dating back to the introduction from Nathaniel Hawthorne's Scarlet Letter, was that the US originally had two flags. The "civil" flag was used by the government and what we know of as the standard US flag with the blue field, white stars, and horizontal stripes was only used by the military. Conspiracy theorists have latched onto the story and claim that after the Civil War a military government was quietly put in place and the use of the military flag as the national flag symbolizes this. Both stories are complete bunk, but the civil flag is interesting none the less.

[Pharos04]

The "US Civil Flag."

The urban legend behind this flag, dating back to the introduction from Nathaniel Hawthorne's Scarlet Letter, was that the US originally had two flags. The "civil" flag was used by the government and what we know of as the standard US flag with the blue field, white stars, and horizontal stripes was only used by the military. Conspiracy theorists have latched onto the story and claim that after the Civil War a military government was quietly put in place and the use of the military flag as the national flag symbolizes this. Both stories are complete bunk, but the civil flag is interesting none the less.

Which is based on the supposed US Customs Flag

Which continues to live on as the Ensign of the US Coast Guard

[nash61]

While we're discussing flags, I found this flag in an old warehouse, but can't figure out what it is.

Close up of the crest

[FrankCostanza]

It's some weird Canadian Flag. The crest contains emblems from various provincial flags. The lion is from Nova Scotia, the sun from British Columbia, the boat New Brunswick, the trees PEI.

[FrankCostanza]

Sorry, double post.

[nash61]

It's some weird Canadian Flag. The crest contains emblems from various provincial flags. The lion is from Nova Scotia, the sun from British Columbia, the boat New Brunswick, the trees PEI.

The three maple leaves are Ontario, and the bison is Manitoba.

[steve61]

Looks a lot like the "9 Province Flag" which was used from 1907-1921 although some of the provincial flags in the crest appear to be in different order.

more details here:

http://flagspot.net/flags/ca-9prov.html

[IceCap]

It's some weird Canadian Flag. The crest contains emblems from various provincial flags. The lion is from Nova Scotia, the sun from British Columbia, the boat New Brunswick, the trees PEI.

Actually the fish is from Nova Scotia. Nova Scotia didn't re-adopt the Scottish lion and reverse St. Andrew's Cross emblem until 1929. The provinces represented in the crest on nash's flag are, from top to bottom/left to right:

Ontario (St. George's Cross and three maple leaves) Quebec (two fleurs-de-lis, a lion, and three maple leaves) Nova Scotia (three thistles and a fish)

New Brunswick (lion and ship) British Columbia (Union Jack over the sun and waves) Manitoba (St. George's Cross and the bison)

Prince Edward Island (lion and three trees) Alberta (St. George's Cross, scene of the prairie and mountains) Saskatchewan (lion and three bundles of hay).

A Red Ensign containing a badge of the original four provinces (Ontario, Quebec, Nova Scotia, and New Brunswick) served as the national flag of the Dominion from 1867-1921.

Officially the badge remained unchanged through the years. Unofficial variants that incorporated the shields of new provinces, however, began to see wide spread use. The flag nash61 posted seems to be one of these unofficial variants.

In 1921 this issue was addressed. It seemed unfair to continue using a coat of arms that only contained four of the Dominion's 9 (at the time) provinces, but the unofficial 9 province flags showed how unappealing a coat of arms would be if it tried to incorporate all the provinces. So a new coat of arms was designs for Canada that included the arms of the four "founding peoples" (English, Scottish, Irish, and French) above the arms of Canada (three maple leaves on a single stem on a white background). There was a snafu though. The Canadian government intended for the leaves to be red. The official description, however, called the leaves "natural coloured." The artist in Britain had never seen red maple leaves in the fall before, so he coloured them green.

This mistake was kept from 1921-1957 when the coat of arms were tweaked once again to get the leaves the right colour, red.

This last version of the Red Ensign is the one most often used when a red ensign is needed (usually during Remembrance Day ceremonies or for private display). It was used until 1965, when the current flag was adopted.

[BlueSky]

I just wasn't aware of any negative connotations. I just thought of it as a sharp design so therefore posted it. As for the headband thing, i just thought it would look kind of cool.

So does the U.S. Navy's VF-111, the Sundowners.

But Maverick didn't like it one bit. (Note cat on Sundown's patch, obviously the same one that the Sundowners "samurai-ized" on their patch.)

Seriously though, I'm not taking sides; I agree the Japanese army flag and naval ensign designs are both highly offensive to some. They certainly were to my father, who fought at Guam, the Philippines, and Okinawa and was changed forever by the atrocities he and his buddies saw.

VF-111 was formed in 1942 and their name "Sundowners" refers to "downing" (as in shooting down) Japan's rising sun. Why they went to the ensign design I don't know. Seems kinda odd.

Thanks to the poster who pointed out the difference between the naval ensign and the Japanese Army flag, though the difference is so subtle that it's pretty meaningless.

States:

1. Maryland

2. Arizona

3. New Mexico

National:

1. Kenya

2. Jamaica

3. Canada

As far as the WORST state flags:

1. Georgia (it's a cheap knock-off of the confederate national flag)

2. Every state that uses their state seal with a blue background... some originality would be nice.

Just curious, is that a critique of the design or history or politics or some of/all of the above?

I'm surprised there's been no mention of the Isle of Man.

Saw a guy do that once in a Cirque show.

[illwauk]

States:

1. Maryland

2. Arizona

3. New Mexico

National:

1. Kenya

2. Jamaica

3. Canada

As far as the WORST state flags:

1. Georgia (it's a cheap knock-off of the confederate national flag)

2. Every state that uses their state seal with a blue background... some originality would be nice.

Just curious, is that a critique of the design or history or politics or some of/all of the above?

First off, I must say my opinions have shifted since I made that post... no idea why Ghana's not in my top 3. My distaste for the Georgia flag has also waned, but I still don't particularly care for it. Yes, some of it has to do with the politics behind it, but it's not entirely political (Arizona definitely wouldn't be in my top 3 if that were the case).

I guess my first problem with Georgia's flag is that it doesn't tell me anything about Georgia other than it used to be part of the confederacy. If 10 other states could use your flag by simply swapping out their seal for yours, it's not a good design. If Georgia must take pride in being part of the confederacy, they should find a way to do so that's more unique and less blatant. Borrowing elements from other flags is nothing new... the flags of many cities that were once part of the Louisiana purchase have fleur-de-lis' and even Alabama makes no effort to hide the fact that its flag uses St. Andrew's cross because the confederate battle flag did. But to import another flag's design en masse and make a couple of small tweaks isn't all that unlike the logo theft that (rightfully) gets mocked around here.

Secondly, the design comes at the expense of calling attention to a lot of very worthwhile American history that happened in Georgia... particularly during the civil rights movement. I'd be lying if I said I didn't resent the implication of glorifying the confederacy over that.

Thirdly, the confederacy was... for all intents and purposes... an occupying nation that attacked the US. Why should any state that's currently part of the union be glorifying them? It seems like a slap in the face to receive federal tax dollars, yet still have one of the preeminent symbols of your state pumping up historical figures who wanted nothing to do with our country. Now to be fair, Hawaii's flag is just as perplexing to me for similar reasons despite my knowledge of how it became their state flag.

[nash61]

Gotta post the flag of the newest country.

[AnythingChicago]

Gotta post the flag of the newest country.

That ain't a bad flag, either. I'd say it's a top ten African flag. And, as you can see from my favorite flag's post, a vast majority of the best flags are African in my opinion, so top 10 is saying something.

A new country is a beautiful thing. Just think about it: a map of Africa, or a world map for that matter, will never look the same.

[BlueSky]

@illwauk - a well-reasoned reply. Thanks for explaining.

As a disinterested spectator who happens to live in Georgia since 2001, the whole flag debate here was ridiculous. A lot of people screamed loud and long in 2001 about "history" and "heritage" when they changed away from the old flag featuring the CSA stars and bars. But a little Google work revealed that "historic" flag had been adopted in 1956.

You're right though, when they adopted the present design they just swapped the '56 to '01 flag's stars and bars for the old Confederate look, so how is that any kind of big progressive change?

For those unfamilar, this is probably easier to understand visually.

One of the CSA's designs (only variable was number of stars)

Georgia - Before 1879 - Unofficial

1920 - 1956 (One of several versions - only variable was the graphic in the blue field)

1956 - 2001

2001 - 2003

2003 - Present

Those who protest the loudest against a more modern design seem to feel like they've given up a lot (or had it taken from them) since the Civil Rights era. Exactly what "it" is and how bringing the state into the 21st century entails giving up anything (other than bitter, long held prejudices) is a mystery to me.

[Cola]

Politics aside, but the 1956-2001 flag is the best looking Georgia has ever had and the one that will always come to my mind. 2001-2003 was a complete failure and is probably one of the ugliest flags ever created on this planet. The current one isn't BAD, it is just a bit bland and "meh".

BlueSky, you probably thought the whole issue was "ridiculous" because it wasn't important to you and you didn't exactly understand it. Southern heritage and pride is taken very seriously, especially in a state like Georgia- and although the flag itself wasn't "old"...the stars and bars stood for enough and represented a certain nostalgia that some refuse to let go of for whatever reasons.

[illwauk]

Politics aside, but the 1956-2001 flag is the best looking Georgia has ever had and the one that will always come to my mind.

It will for me too, if only because of the Fabulous Freebirds

2001-2003 was a complete failure and is probably one of the ugliest flags ever created on this planet. The current one isn't BAD, it is just a bit bland and "meh".

No arguments here. I generally dislike any flag that has a state seal on it.

BlueSky, you probably thought the whole issue was "ridiculous" because it wasn't important to you and you didn't exactly understand it. Southern heritage and pride is taken very seriously, especially in a state like Georgia- and although the flag itself wasn't "old"...the stars and bars stood for enough and represented a certain nostalgia that some refuse to let go of for whatever reasons.

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure BlueSky is native to the south, just not Georgia. Either way, I still don't see how the confederate flag is an absolutely necessary to show ones southern pride. If people want to fly the flag on their houses or cars, fine, but all the "Heritage not hate" rhetoric can't explain away the fact that it's a pretty terrible idea to have an emblem in a state-sponsored flag that alienates roughly 1/3rd of that state's population.

[Cola]

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure BlueSky is native to the south, just not Georgia. Either way, I still don't see how the confederate flag is an absolutely necessary to show ones southern pride. If people want to fly the flag on their houses or cars, fine, but all the "Heritage not hate" rhetoric can't explain away the fact that it's a pretty terrible idea to have an emblem in a state-sponsored flag that alienates roughly 1/3rd of that state's population.

However, most people probably wouldn't know that the flag on the old Georgia flag isn't the Confederate flag. It's the Battle Flag of the Confederacy- pretty big difference there. One was an official flag, the other was more of a symbol to a portion of the nation.

And while I can slightly see your point about alienating 1/3 of the state's population, fact is- it is a part of history and stood for a hell of a lot more than "black vs white".

[illwauk]

EDIT: On second thought... nevermind. I've had this discussion wayyyy to many times to know where its headed.

But for anyone whose interested, here's my proposal for a new Georgia flag.

[BlueSky]

BlueSky, you probably thought the whole issue was "ridiculous" because it wasn't important to you and you didn't exactly understand it. Southern heritage and pride is taken very seriously, especially in a state like Georgia- and although the flag itself wasn't "old"...the stars and bars stood for enough and represented a certain nostalgia that some refuse to let go of for whatever reasons.

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure BlueSky is native to the south, just not Georgia. Either way, I still don't see how the confederate flag is an absolutely necessary to show ones southern pride. If people want to fly the flag on their houses or cars, fine, but all the "Heritage not hate" rhetoric can't explain away the fact that it's a pretty terrible idea to have an emblem in a state-sponsored flag that alienates roughly 1/3rd of that state's population.

I thought I explained the ridiculous part: of course "history" and "heritage" are important to people, but that seemed to be the whole argument for a flag that had been around for exactly 45 years. Not really what I call "historic." "Historic" and "heritage" would have been a better argument for the current CSA-inspired design. The battle flag design was also adopted at a time (1956) that, fair or unfair, smacks of "let's show those (fill in racial epithet of choice) who's boss." And what seemed to really bother its proponents was that the state wanted to distance itself from a symbol that represents "pride" and "heritage" to some and "slavery, lynchings, and a war that killed hundreds of thousands of people, many of them non-combatants" to others.

Just because there's a history doesn't mean it's all worthy of being proud of. I'm a Saints fan, you can trust me on that.

@ Illwauk - correct and I agree.

Speaking of pride, heritage, and flags, forgive me for a small anecdote. I remember it mostly because of the bizarre timing - it was literally just about the first thing I saw when I moved to the Atlanta area from DFW in 2001. Moving was a huge decision and one I was not entirely sure about. My fiancee at the time lived here and we were driving to her parents' house to stay a few days till our place was ready.

Now, I knew little about Atlanta other than what I'd seen on a few previous visits. The exit for her parents' place is basically the first one you come to on I-20 west of Atlanta (Douglasville for those who know the place). We took the exit and came to a traffic light. The vehicle in front of us was a jalopy of a pickup truck with no tailgate, driven by a shirtless guy who looked like an extra in Deliverance. This guy had welded a flag mount to the back end of the truck - like the ones on a ship - and had a huge stars and bars battle flag waving proudly from it.

I thought, "Holy Christ, is this the norm around here?" Fortunately, it's not.

[Cola]

BlueSky, you probably thought the whole issue was "ridiculous" because it wasn't important to you and you didn't exactly understand it. Southern heritage and pride is taken very seriously, especially in a state like Georgia- and although the flag itself wasn't "old"...the stars and bars stood for enough and represented a certain nostalgia that some refuse to let go of for whatever reasons.

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure BlueSky is native to the south, just not Georgia. Either way, I still don't see how the confederate flag is an absolutely necessary to show ones southern pride. If people want to fly the flag on their houses or cars, fine, but all the "Heritage not hate" rhetoric can't explain away the fact that it's a pretty terrible idea to have an emblem in a state-sponsored flag that alienates roughly 1/3rd of that state's population.

Just because there's a history doesn't mean it's all worthy of being proud of. I'm a Saints fan, you can trust me on that.

You probably never had any family that played for the Saints and died either, I'd imagine. Kind of changes things. However, I don't want to turn this thread political in any way or form...just wanted to note that the stars and bars is a lot more important to those living in the South than ones who aren't could ever begin to understand. Hell, I am all for it being phased out in certain areas and I understand the history...non-Southerns see it and think "racist" immediately and that's that.