Las vegas expos

[slapshot]

Let's leave the Expos in Montreal!!!

to Stampman: there are quite a few nice golf courses in the greater Las Vegas area. I think there used to be a PGA tournament held there too. Not nearly as many as Myrtle Beach, but still a lot.

Gotta have something to do when you get bored with debauchery

besides go home, that is

[Stampman]

I meant golfing is something MLB doesn't want to mess with.

::

[yh]

golfing?

You bet.  Shadow Creek is probably the second most exclusive club to play behind Augusta National.  It's reserved for it's mega-rich and ultra-secret members and the very, very high rollers at the Mirage and Bellagio.

No, I'm not a member; I just remember reading about it in Cigar Aficionado magazine.

And back on topic, I really think Norfolk/Hampton Roads/Tidewater is the best option.  Baseball needs to be in more communities where it's the only game in town - simply put, they need communities that will embrace baseball warts and all.

[NJTank]

The people saying keep them in Montreal may have teh right idea. But I think its not salavagable up there. They cant stay in the BIg O they need a new satdium and a full comitment to the city of Montreal to win back the fans, and I just think its too late for all of that.

[slapshot]

If you go here you can see the proposed stadium that they were going to build in Montreal for the Expos. But last I knew, there was so much red tape and redistricting issues that the mayor said "F"it and now that project is over.

[NJTank]

Exactly that stadium had they built in 5 years ago would have saved the Expos inMontreal, but all teh red tape and other crap has made baseball in Montreal on life support and at this point the humane thing to do is pull the plug.

[slapshot]

It's too bad the team will eventually go. Those few that go to the games are diehard and very supportive of the team. Even though when the Red Sox go up there, they seen to draw an extra 25,000, the crowd gets very into everything during the games. Last year ESPN's Page 2 visited all the stadiums...I believe they gave the Expos crowd good marks for being into the games.

[NJTank]

Well allot of the crowd were Red Sox fans living in Vermont I would guess. The problem is not the few fans they have now, it just the majority of peopl up there just dont care any more they have been screwed over so much from the 1994 lockout, to the constant fire sales, to the hanging in limbo ove rthe last 5 years.

[CC97]

One way the Expos could've drawn in more people was marketing their baseball to the Vermont crowd.  There's a large amount of people just right over the border that I'm sure would be expos fans.

Imagine if the expos had a deal with local television, radio, and news broadcasts in Burlington, VT (let alone Montreal)... Burlington is very close to Montreal.   That's a whole new market right there.

The team could rake in a bit of cash with Montreal-French; Montreal-English; and Burlington television, and radio deals.  That's three seperate broadcasts, and three 3-hour commercials airing at the same time to 3-markets.

But I will echo jp's comments about the Montreal crowd, it's incredible how boisterous those that show up are, it's always a pleasure going up there for games JUST for those fans!

[Brian in Boston]

Mr Fab...

You ignore the fact that Major League Baseball has gone on record as saying that the sports books in Las Vegas would have to stop setting odds/taking bets on MLB before the league would ever consider expanding there. Frankly, I don't envision MLB budging on that criteria - particularly with the spectre of the Pete Rose situation hanging over their heads. More importantly, the casinos AREN'T going to stop. Las Vegas WILL NOT be the new home of the Expos.

Brian in Boston

[Brian in Boston]

Mr. Fab...

First of all, simply taking the Las Vegas-based MLB team's action off the books is NOT going to be good enough for the league. They're going to want ALL of the Major League Baseball action taken off the books. I don't know where you get the idea that MLB will acquiesce on that issue.

Secondly, what makes you think that the casinos give a "rat's a$$" about the greater good of the Las Vegas community. Caesar's proposed offer is a PR move... nothing more, nothing less. The casinos are about making money, and the bottom line is that anything that keeps the potential "suckers" out of their facilities ultimately does nothing to help them. Caesar's figures that they'll "run this flag up the pole" just to see whether or not MLB will "salute". The truth is, they're not really interested in the baseball business, the ballpark construction business or any other business that's not going to keep the slots clink-clink-clinking with coin. Period. In fact, they know that MLB wants nothing to do with Las Vegas if major pro baseball isn't taken off the books... which isn't going to happen. Still, by stepping up to the plate and offering to build a ballpark, they come out smelling like a rose in the PR game... without having to spend a dime.

As for MLB's reasons for "considering" Las Vegas as a relocation site... well, let's just say that they're caught between a rock and a hard place. They obviously prefer placing the team in Washington DC. Truth be told, it's the only market without baseball that the powers-that-be are absolutely convinced can support the team. Unfortunately for MLB, the potential ownership groups/stadium authorities in the District and Northern Virginia know it as well. That's why they're playing hardball, i.e. "We'll put together stadium financing once you've granted us this franchise." Which, of course, flies in the face of MLB's desire to get the money/ballpark up front. So MLB looks around trying to find an alternate/competing market that will put some fear into the DC/Northern VA crowd. San Juan, Puerto Rico? Get real. The economics don't work. Monterrey, Mexico? Don't make me laugh. The economics are even worse there. Portland, Oregon? MLB might be willing to settle (they may HAVE to), but the suits are worried that the team immediately becomes another small-market "weak-sister" like the Brewers.

So, faced with so-called "competing" markets that have major question marks - question marks that the DC/Northern VA crowd are all too aware of - MLB decides to artificially expand the pool of Washington's supposed "competition". They figure that if they don't have a SINGLE market that can viably put a fright into the DC/NoVA groups, they'll just consider everybody who has one or two things going for them... hoping that the folks in DC/NoVA panic when they hear that they now have more "competition" for the team. Norfolk? No competing big league sports... you're in! San Antonio? You've got a wacky old judge who is considered a "leading citizen" and open to the plan... you're in. Las Vegas? We'll trot out that worn-out old chestnut about it being "the fastest growing city in America" and point to the mayor who is SO eager for Las Vegas to be considered a "major" American city. You're in (yeah... right)!

The problem is, that in addition to the gambling issue, Vegas has got other obstacles in the way of its bid. The biggest?How about, whether or not its population will support 81 GAMES A YEAR? That's a question that ballclubs throughout the country are asking themselves... and in markets bigger than Las Vegas.

Bottom line: "Sin City" is just an artificially introduced "stalking horse" that MLB is willing to have go through the motions of a "candidacy" in the hope that it forces DC's hand. Nothing more, nothing less.

Do I think that Las Vegas could support a major professional sports franchise? Yes, I do. An NFL team. The season is shorter and easier to market. There's revenue sharing to help ease the financial burden of playing in a smaller market. Still, there's the league's outspoken problem with organized gambling. What Las Vegas would need is a maverick owner willing to move his franchise unilaterally and then fight the NFL in court over whether or not they had a say in where he could locate his team. Hmmmmm... who might that be? Frankly, given his team's image and nomadic ways to date, not to mention his litigious nature, I'm surprised that Al Davis hasn't moved the Raiders to Nevada already. Even the team's famous slogan would fit in "Sin City".

The Las Vegas Raiders: Just Win, Baby!

Unfortunately, that scenario is the only way that I see Las Vegas getting a major professional franchise anytime soon. And even that would require a deep-pocketed developer to build a state-of-the-art facility ahead of time, and then surreptitiously negotiate with Davis so the NFL could be caught unaware.

Brian in Boston

[habsfannova]

Good post Brian, except for the point about Monterray. The city has grown EXTREMLY wealthy, thanks to the NAFTA agreement.. It's about on-par with an average US city.

[Brian in Boston]

Unfortunately, an "average" US city has enough trouble holding on to their pro sports franchises now.

Brian in Boston

[ChicoStater]

I say every team should have to play a couple of games in Portland.

With Oregon's radically strict drug testing laws (yeah, believe it or not), the number of doping discoveries in baseball would be off the charts.

It's actually why (little known fact) that World Wrestling Entertainment doesn't hold performances at the Rose Garden or the Memorial Coliseum.

[KingGoose]

If they are going to move the Team, Don't move them to an Area that has to many teams alreay Example EAST COAST, WEST COAST. Move them to the MidWest or South West., hell move them to North Dakota.  Just not the EAST or WEST Coast

[NJTank]

I say every team should have to play a couple of games in Portland.

With Oregon's radically strict drug testing laws (yeah, believe it or not), the number of doping discoveries in baseball would be off the charts.

It's actually why (little known fact) that World Wrestling Entertainment doesn't hold performances at the Rose Garden or the Memorial Coliseum.

What does that mean look at the Portland Trailbalzers do enough drugs that every dealer can buy a lear jet.

I dont know what effect it will have on a MLB team but it has not stopped the Trailbalzers from looking like an episode of OZ.

[mrfab]

??? Jeez, Brian, I thought I pontificated!

You make a BIG assumption that the gaming biz is cynical in developing LV as a community.  What business ISN'T devoted to the bottom line?  They wouldn't enter MLB or pro sports if there wasn't profit potential.  Agreed, MLB is entertaining ANY Expos bid to drive up/artificically create market value.  That too is the way of big business.  BTW Monterrey Mexico is a VERY legitimate future MLB candidate.  The only variable/question w/them, and it's a big one, is peso/dollar value and if the exchange rate could support a big league team.  Same prob as Canadian pro teams that have to pay players in US dollars, except for now, ironically, when the Canadian dollar's doing well against ours.  Monterrey as "Mexico's Team" or "el equipo de Mexico" has much potential if MLB's serious about international expansion.  Would MLB accept only an LV team off the books?  Would LV accept all MLB off their sports books?  That's called negotiaton, I think, in business terms.  MLB's main Expos relocation criteria is stadium funding; that's where DC & especially No. Va. is falling down.  IF Las Vegas brings sufficient PRIVATE stadium equity to the table, they're in play, PERIOD.  Again I prefer to see the new DC Senators; for me it begs the question if DC/Baltimore is a two team market.

Both are big metro markets, especially DC.  The same can be said for the San Francisco Bay area.  Is it really a 2 team market or more of a 1.5 team market?  Will the A's ever get a new $-making ballpark in the Bay?  It's a moot point with

DC/Baltimore beyond any Angelos sentiment pro or con.  Brian you make a BIG assumption to know the thinking of MLB re:

Las Vegas or on general baseball matters I dare say.  Who can know their arcane ways, save for the desire to make a profit on selling the Expos?  BTW what community virtually COULDN'T support an NFL team, provided you have a 60K+ stadium & satellite uplink facilities?  I'd argue the NFL would be even more gambling sensitive than MLB about LV and in general.  And I thought I was didactic!  Well, I AM, but...

time will tell the Expos tale, won't it?  :cool:

[Brian in Boston]

Mr. Fab...

"Time will tell the Expos tale, won't it?" Well, you're really going out on a limb there, aren't you?

It's safe to say that the one thing we agree on is that the passage of time will ultimately see the Expos situation rectified in one way or another: the franchise is moved to another city, the franchise is folded, the franchise stays put (though this final option is, by far, the least likely). Where we differ is on our opinion as to what will happen and why?

For all of your ability to throw around words like "pontificate" and "didactic" (thus, demonstrating a love for language and a well-turned phrase), you seem to put very little stock into actually reading and COMPREHENDING the written opinions of others. Either that, or you simply chose to ignore those passages that didn't suit your latest rebuttal to me.

For instance, the construction of your defense of Monterrey as a "very legitimate future MLB candidate" implies that I don't share your assessment. However, my comments on Monterrey's viability as a MLB market spoke directly to the economic issues at play ("Unfortunately, there are serious questions regarding the economy in both markets.")... a concern that you, yourself, put forth ("The only variable/question w/them, and it's a big one, is peso/dollar value and if the exchange rate could support a big league team."). You go so far as to state that Monterrey is "a VERY legitimate future MLB candidate". While I would have switched the emphasis from "very" to "future" in that phrase, it does serve to point out that we stand on common ground on this issue. We are both of the opinion that the economy stands as the most serious mark against Monterrey's current legitimacy as a MLB market.

With regard to my opinion on MLB's stand on the book-making issue (the single Las Vegas-based team off the books vs. all of MLB off the books), we will have to agree to disagree. There's no shame in that. You are certain that casino interests and MLB would be open to negotiation. I am equally certain that MLB is not open to negotiating their position on that issue. In my honest opinion, MLB would insist that the casinos take all MLB odds off of the sports books, or the relocation/expansion to Las Vegas would be DOA... no matter how much private equity someone in the community was willing to put towards stadium construction. The gambling issue is THAT important to MLB. They would sooner relocate the Expos to another candidate city, or fold them, than budge on that issue.

Finally, while we're on the subject of my opinions on MLB's mindset regarding Las Vegas and "general baseball matters", you seem quick to dismiss them as "BIG assumptions". This from someone who feels we can "assume a team can package tours to sundry MLB fans"... who is ready to "assume the gambling biz would acquiesce with their sports books to lure big league teams"... and who seems ready to "assume that the city fathers will overcome any stigma to bring in big league sports". Pardon me, but who is making the "BIG assumptions"?

I base my opinions on information gleaned over better than a decade as a sports journalist. I have worked intimately with figures who are "in the know" with regard to MLB's mindset. I maintain relationships with these individuals, as well as other professionals with access to information pertinent to the issues we're discussing. At the end of the day, my opinions are just that... opinions. However, let me assure you that they are based on the facts surrounding baseball's "business" track record.

Brian in Boston

[IceCap]

North Jersey i think is slowly becoming a contender...

ive always been for a team in jersey. from the jersey sports fans ive talked to, baseball would do well there. they seem to be into hockey and baseball. when its all said and done, the nets wouldnt have worked out, but a baseball team would.

[mrfab]

??? Brian, I'll end our little Expos/Vegas discussion by thanking you for your informative input but on a bit less Aristotilean note by concluding "I'm right, you're wrong! Nyah! Nyah! Nyah! Nyah! Nyah!".  Lighten up, dude, this all is supposed to be "fun".  You're in your 30's and VERY serious,

aren't you?   Like others I'd prefer the Expos make it in Montreal but that's wishful.  And since when is sports journalism a profession?  It'll be our little secret, OK?  :laugh:

I HOPE you don't take this all the wrong way... "PLAY BALL Las Vegas Aces!" :laugh: