Bills may play in Toronto

[xyzzyva]

I like both games, and see the pros and cons to both; but the fact is, as I see it anyway, the two can't co-exist in this country. Period.

Which is, in my opinion, unfortunate for the Canadian Football League, as it strikes me that an NFL franchise's entrance into the Toronto market is a matter of "when", not "if".

In fact, the CFL seems to recognize this, as the owners of the Toronto Argonauts - David Cynamon and Howard Sokolowski - have recently had discussions with CFL Commissioner Mark Cohon and the league's Board of Governors about the Argos' brass bringing an NFL team to Toronto in collaboration with the CFL's other clubs. The move is viewed as means of heading-off a rival bid for an NFL franchise led by Rogers Communications chief Ted Rogers and Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment minority partner Larry Tanenbaum. That's how seriously the CFL itself takes the issue of the NFL setting-up shop in Canada; they're preparing to welcome the NFL into their marketplace by doing business with them.

Is it any wonder that Cynamon and Sokolowski are trying to figure out some way to protect their investment in the Toronto sports scene? Last fall, Tanenbaum revealed that he and Rogers were "highly interested" in bringing the NFL's brand of football to Toronto. At the time, he also said that he and Rogers would "pursue it more rigorously as soon as the NFL gives us the word".

Believe me... the NFL is going to give someone "the word" to go ahead with the business of playing top-flight American football in Toronto. A North American Metropolitan Area market of nearly 13-million people is not going to go untapped by the NFL indefinitely. A team in Toronto is a natural first step in the NFL's growth outside of the borders of the United States. In fact, I fully expect that we'll see NFL franchises in Toronto, Mexico City and London within my lifetime, with the Ontario capital being the first international market to secure such a team.

If the CFL is interested in trying to engage the NFL and do business with them, instead of competing heads-on, they should probably try to drive a hard bargain. Yielding any CFL market to the NFL will cement the CFL as a second-class league, possibly bringing about its eventual destruction. Knowing this, the CFL bigwigs ought to try to incorporate as much of their tradition into the NFL as possible, as soon as possible, instead of being utterly replaced by new, sterile NFL non-tradition, probably in Toronto only. Essentially, I'm talking about a merger.

Few doubt that Toronto could support the NFL, but (perhaps with some assistance in the transition period) several other CFL markets could shoehorn their way in, preserving a good deal of their legacy. Remember, if Green Bay can support the Packers, surely a structure can be created to support the BC Lions, Edmonton Eskimos, and Montreal Alouettes, especially with the current strength of the Canadian dollar (Thanks W, for devaluing our currency so!)

If they do it right, perhaps a few rule variations in Canadian spirit could be imported. I'm not sure which, because obviously the NFL's not going to expand 31 stadiums to fit in a 150yd long field. Maybe they'd be willing to allow for slight variations in ground rules, à la MLB. Basically, if everyone played their cards right, a deal could be reached that would make most people happy (except for places like Hamilton, that stand no chance of incorporation into the NFL).

[Luigi74]

The Bills are not going to move they will use moving to Toronto or LA as a ploy to get a new stadium.

Also the NFL isnt going to expand for a long long time, the current owners even with a hefty expansion fee don't want to split up revenues anymore. The only move that might happen is San Diego and Jacksonville(switch to NFC) to LA with both teams sharing a stadium that would be located next to Dodger Stadium(the LA City Council will give up on putting a team in the Coliseum at some point).

[KevinMcD]

I could go for a preseason game every year, but not multiple regular season games.

First of all, we (Erie County citizens) payed for 100% of the stadium, and renovations. Part of that contract includes that the Bills MUST play 1/2 of the regular season games at RWS. These 10 games pumps revenue into the OP/Buffalo economy. This is the reason Erie County payed for the stadium 30 years ago. If one or two of these games are taken away not as much $ is going to the businesses in OP and Buffalo.

RWS may be a 35 year old stadium, but it is in great condition. We just got a new scoreboard, and a whole stadium makeover less than 10 years ago. There is NO need for a new stadium in Buffalo. Most of the new stadiums are built for the luxury boxes and suites. We didn't even sell out the 163? boxes until after the season started. More boxes are not needed. Also there is no more money in the county to build a new stadium. The county, and city government is a mess and their budgets are not able to add another half a Billion dollars to build a new stadium to keep the NFL in Buffalo/OP.

I believe I would no longer watch the NFL if the Bills ever leave WNY. I would feel betrayed (Like Winnipeg Jets fans, Quebec Nordiques fans, Minnesota North Stars fans, Cleveland Browns fans, Baltimore Colts fans etc...) and would not feel like giving my money or attention to the league and owners that betrayed my city. I would pay more attention to the NCAA. I also think most WNY Bills fans will think the same as me. There will be some outcasts that will make the 1.5 hour trip to Toronto for every game, but why would you give your money to a owner that ripped the team from your city?

If the Bills leave they are never getting a team back. We would have another vacant building in WNY and nobody to fill it. This would kill the city morale and more people will head south (Or North to Toronto)

Personally I believe before I turn 30 (13 years away) there will be no NFL in Buffalo. Some rich Toronto business man will win the sale away form a group of Buffalo natives (Tom Golisano, The Rich Family, Jeremy Jacobs, and former players) There is already talk between Jim Kelly, Thurman Thomas, Andre Reed, and Steve Tasker (All of which still live in Buffalo) about a group trying to launch and buy part of the team from Wilson before he passes, so they have the rights to the team when he does die. But I think a group of Semi-Rich people are going to get outbid by a single uber-rich Toronto man, and Toronto will build a new $1 Billion stadium and the NFL will let them move to the big city.

This is huge and sad news in Buffalo.

[Viper]

If they do it right, perhaps a few rule variations in Canadian spirit could be imported. I'm not sure which, because obviously the NFL's not going to expand 31 stadiums to fit in a 150yd long field.

I've always wanted to see the NFL adopt the CFL's 1 point to the kicking team on a touchback, in order to encourage more kick returns from the end zone.

As for Toronto, I've already decided that if they ever end up with a full-time NFL team, I'll be relocating the Vipers to Vancouver.

[slapshot]

I think this is a smart move by Buffalo to expand its fanbase and market into a territory that has unofficially claimed it anyway. One home game is not that big a deal in the long run. There are teams playing in Mexico and London already, so the "lost revenue and attendance from one less home game" argument doesn't hold that much water. The ends should by far justify the means.

With the US dollar the way it is right now, any potential revenue lost by one game in Toronto would probably make itself up and then some by the new fans and corporate sponsors from north (or east, in this case) of the border.

Brian in Boston is right...it's not a matter of "if", but "when". I don't live in Canada, but I don't see why the two leagues can't co-exist. Different rules, and not a total overlap should still provide fans of each a chance to see their favorite league without missing the other.

Besides...if the CFL loses Toronto to the NFL, wouldn't it look to expand to other big cities? Why not back to Atlantic Canada? Aren't there other large cities in the country that could support a CFL team?

[Brian in Boston]

If the CFL is interested in trying to engage the NFL and do business with them, instead of competing heads-on, they should probably try to drive a hard bargain.

Frankly, the CFL isn't in the position to dictate terms to the NFL. The CFL amounts to a niche league on the North American pro sports scene. Further, as recently as 5 years ago it was in the throes of financial chaos and has only just begun to stabilize itself. By contrast, the NFL is one of the premier pro sports enterprises on the face of the planet. There will be precious little in the way of "bargaining" going on when the NFL eventually decides to set-up shop in Toronto... and you can be sure that the NFL will be "driving" the agenda.

Plus, simply because David Cynamon and Howard Sokolowski are interested in convincing their CFL brethren to collaborate with them on bringing an NFL expansion team to Toronto, that doesn't mean that the CFL Board of Governors will ultimately decide to endorse such an effort. Nor does it guarantee that the NFL would choose to do business with Cynamon and Sokolowski over the likes of Ted Rogers and Larry Tanenbaum.

Yielding any CFL market to the NFL will cement the CFL as a second-class league, possibly bringing about its eventual destruction.

Yes, there is nationalistic support for the CFL amongst Canadians. Yes, fans in certain markets - namely, those who realize that their city has no realistic chance of ever securing an NFL team - are die-hard in their support for the CFL. Yes, there are even Americans - myself included - who enjoy the CFL's brand of football. All of that said, the CFL is already a second-class league in terms of global marketing, revenue generation and player quality.

Knowing this, the CFL bigwigs ought to try to incorporate as much of their tradition into the NFL as possible, as soon as possible, instead of being utterly replaced by new, sterile NFL non-tradition, probably in Toronto only. Essentially, I'm talking about a merger.

There is no way that the NFL is interested in a merger with the CFL. The NFL is simply looking to place a franchise in a major North American market that is simply too good to pass up. While NFL officials will never say it publicly, if push were to come to shove, the NFL doesn't really care if the establishment of one of it's franchises in Canada would spell doom for the CFL. The NFL's number-one concern is the successful propagation of it's own product. Period.

Few doubt that Toronto could support the NFL, but (perhaps with some assistance in the transition period) several other CFL markets could shoehorn their way in, preserving a good deal of their legacy. Remember, if Green Bay can support the Packers, surely a structure can be created to support the BC Lions, Edmonton Eskimos, and Montreal Alouettes, especially with the current strength of the Canadian dollar...

There is nothing to indicate that the NFL has any interest in creating a structure to support pro football franchises in Canadian markets smaller than Toronto. There is no reason to believe that the NFL is looking to create more "small-market" teams. What the NFL is interested in - to the point of virtually salivating at the prospect - is placing an NFL franchise in a world-class metropolitan area of nearly 13-million people.

[Slickster]

If the CFL could come up with an arrangement with the NFL ensuring their own survival (i.e. selling out to the NFL for use as a developmental league), I think it could work out. Why send prospects to NFL Europe when NFL Canada is right there?

[BB61]

If the CFL could come up with an arrangement with the NFL ensuring their own survival (i.e. selling out to the NFL for use as a developmental league), I think it could work out. Why send prospects to NFL Europe when NFL Canada is right there?

NFL what?

I don't think the CFL or their fans would stand for being a minor league, personally, even if it did ensure their own survival. If the NFL takes over, the Canadian game would be 86'd for the NFL method of play, and that would probably alienate fans and then NFL Canada would be as successful as their last attempt to annex another foreign landmass.

Bottom line, I don't think Toronto needs to have an NFL team of their own, and really, you would think that if you wanted there to be a regional link between Canadian markets and the NFL that the NFL would have the brains to tell their northernmost teams to reach out to their northern markets. Seattle markets to Vancouver, Minnesota and Green Bay market to the prairies, Buffalo and Detroit to Ontario, and New England to the Maritimes (on either a large or a small scale on all counts, really).

If the NFL wants Toronto (or vice versa), let them settle for one home game a year a/la Green Bay and Milwaukee.

[VitaminD]

It sounds like a lot of people are operating under the continued delusion that Canada is "America Junior", with funny extra "u"s thrown in words to be contrarian.

As some have mentioned, the CFL is a big deal in Canada. The league operates soundly, the style play is ingrained into Canadian culture, and the economics are such that top-level teams can be sustained in Canadian cities from coast to coast. Just because Toronto is a large, English-speaking North American city does not mean that the Canadians are going to roll over and jettison their football. The CFL would collapse without a team in Toronto. It'd be like the Giants and Jets fleeing New York. Nearly 40% of Canada's entire population lives in greater Toronto; depriving their anchor market of their game would basically forsake a historic piece of Canadian culture to have another piece of Americana rammed down their throats. The 5th largest Canadian city (Edmonton) isn't even half the size of the 5th largest city in the US (Phoenix); it's about the same size by population as Columbus, Ohio - our 15th largest city. Even Metro Calgary barely has 1 million people; by comparison, metro Cincinnati (#25) has twice that. The CFL couldn't maintain itself without Toronto, and no matter how many Canadian fans the NFL has, I can't see most Canadians being willing to let their own culture be subjugated at the hands of the US.

I'm not saying border teams can't reach out and try and tap fan bases across the border. And if the Bills can get a game in Toronto the way the Pack used to give a game to Milwaukee, then fine. But all this talk of playing games with both sets of rules is ludicrous. This isn't like NL teams playing in AL parks. So the pitchers don't bat; big whoop. The CFL has rules about the number of non-Canadian players each team has, uses a larger field, larger footballs, and vastly different fundamental rules (3 downs, men in motion). An NFL-CFL merger would be disastrous. The CFL had a better chance trying its game out in markets like Baltimore, and look how that ended up.

Let's keep our game here, their game there, and appreciate them both for what they are.

[Brian in Boston]

TwinCities.com and the Pioneer Press are reporting that Toronto could be a bigger threat than Los Angeles to land the Vikings should the franchise continue to struggle in it's efforts to get a new stadium built in the State of Minnesota.

The word comes in the wake of NFL officials announcing that they will travel to Minnesota before the end of the year in an effort to assess the realities of the Vikings' stadium construction efforts.

[DDR]

TwinCities.com and the Pioneer Press are reporting that Toronto could be a bigger threat than Los Angeles to land the Vikings should the franchise continue to struggle in it's efforts to get a new stadium built in the State of Minnesota.

The word comes in the wake of NFL officials announcing that they will travel to Minnesota before the end of the year in an effort to assess the realities of the Vikings' stadium construction efforts.

Delicious. I would gladly make the trek up to Toronto (in my top five cities) to see the Packers play the Vikings. Or the Mounties. Or whatever.

[Fred T. Jane]

IMO, if I were to move the Bills to Toronto, I would suggest that the stadium would be built in nearby Mississauga, which is just outside of Toronto. Either that, or I might place them in either Etobicoke or Scarborough, both former municipalities which are now part of Toronto.

And now I know

[rams80]

TwinCities.com and the Pioneer Press are reporting that Toronto could be a bigger threat than Los Angeles to land the Vikings should the franchise continue to struggle in it's efforts to get a new stadium built in the State of Minnesota.

The word comes in the wake of NFL officials announcing that they will travel to Minnesota before the end of the year in an effort to assess the realities of the Vikings' stadium construction efforts.

Is it really that bleak in Minnesota? I thought things had moved back to the backburner on the Vikes threatening to move.

[mania]

If the Bills moved to Toronto, they would not be NEAR as fun to hate. So here's hoping they don't, for that reason.

[Mac the Knife]

The Bills are not going to move they will use moving to Toronto or LA as a ploy to get a new stadium.

Also the NFL isnt going to expand for a long long time, the current owners even with a hefty expansion fee don't want to split up revenues anymore. The only move that might happen is San Diego and Jacksonville(switch to NFC) to LA with both teams sharing a stadium that would be located next to Dodger Stadium(the LA City Council will give up on putting a team in the Coliseum at some point).

I'm afraid you're wrong, LTP... the only thing that's keeping the Bills in Buffalo is Ralph Wilson. Once he dies and any stadium lease they are in at the time expires, the Bills are gone.

There won't be expansion again anytime soon (i.e., within 15 years). The NFL used to like having 28 teams, but they really, really like 32 now, to a point where it'd take AstroBucks to get them to add another franchise or two.

I think you'll see the Bills, along with another team (the Chargers perhaps, possibly the Saints, maybe the Vikings, who knows?) take the Toronto and Los Angeles markets, probably within the next 5-10 years). In each case there's something there that entices owners too much, though in all honesty I can't see in LA's case just what that is.

[rams80]

In case you didn't read my discussion with Gothamite in another thread, I'd also consider the Rams as a dark horse for LA.

[nolegboy]

We didn't even sell out the 163? boxes until after the season started

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't this be the reason the Bills would want to tap into the Toronto market?? I never took their desire to play a game there as a precursor to moving....but as a way to say, "Hey- better football than you have is just an hour and a half away!!!"

[dfwabel]

First of all, we (Erie County citizens) payed for 100% of the stadium, and renovations. Part of that contract includes that the Bills MUST play 1/2 of the regular season games at RWS. These 10 games pumps revenue into the OP/Buffalo economy. This is the reason Erie County payed for the stadium 30 years ago. If one or two of these games are taken away not as much $ is going to the businesses in OP and Buffalo.

RWS may be a 35 year old stadium, but it is in great condition. We just got a new scoreboard, and a whole stadium makeover less than 10 years ago. There is NO need for a new stadium in Buffalo. Most of the new stadiums are built for the luxury boxes and suites. We didn't even sell out the 163? boxes until after the season started. More boxes are not needed. Also there is no more money in the county to build a new stadium. The county, and city government is a mess and their budgets are not able to add another half a Billion dollars to build a new stadium to keep the NFL in Buffalo/OP.

Personally I believe before I turn 30 (13 years away) there will be no NFL in Buffalo. Some rich Toronto business man will win the sale away form a group of Buffalo natives (Tom Golisano, The Rich Family, Jeremy Jacobs, and former players) There is already talk between Jim Kelly, Thurman Thomas, Andre Reed, and Steve Tasker (All of which still live in Buffalo) about a group trying to launch and buy part of the team from Wilson before he passes, so they have the rights to the team when he does die. But I think a group of Semi-Rich people are going to get outbid by a single uber-rich Toronto man, and Toronto will build a new $1 Billion stadium and the NFL will let them move to the big city.

The Eric County PAID for the stadium, and in 1996, i voted "no" for Tampa's Comminuty Investment Tax, which was basically to build Raymond James Stadium. I was a sport managemetn major at the time too. If they leave, they leave.

I was at RWS in 2002 for a game verses the Raiders, the same day, I drove to Cleveland for the Sunday night game against the Ravens. RWS is just like Texas Stadium, but without the standing water if it rains. It served its time, was updated for suites, but is still inferior today. Most BSC teams have better venues, hence why Jerry Jones is building the stadium in Arlington. Granted, the buffalo has had a population slide in the past decade, but if Cleveland and Cincinnati can do it with two or more venues, then Buffalo might be able to. Plus, the Rich family refused to keep title sponsorship, so why might they want to buy the team?

[BaltimoreFan]

Would the NFL actually let Toronto get an expansion/moved franchise before LA? I just don't see it happening without a franchise in LA.

Does the NFL have much of a say in relocation? I mean doesn't the final decision of where to move a team really come down to who the owner is (barring something rediculous that the NFL could stop). Also the relocated team's conference may come into play. Would the NFL want LA to have an AFC team with San Diego so close? You could change the conferences, but there might be some big time changes since the team would be moving across the country and switching conferences.

[DDR]

For what it's worth (which may be nothing), if the Bills or Vikings were to move to Toronto, there potentially wouldn't have to be any division realignment. Toronto would fit just fine in the NFC North and AFC East, whereas if either team would move to LA, you'd at least have to move a few other teams around [(Vikings to LA in the NFC West, Rams to the NFC North? Are the Rams' NFC West rivalries that strong, that it would be a shame to break any of them up?) (Bills to LA in the AFC West....well, that's not nearly as easy with geography and breaking up traditional rivalries)].