are some uniform concepts pointless?

[heernumurr]

am i the only one who finds that trying to redesign or create certain uniforms pointless?

baseball is an easy example. your whole design can boiled down to a one word question: pinstripes?

even football is problem. most concepts end up indistinguishable from the real thing to the casual observer, or look like crap. youve got a jersey with a huge number on the front and back, leaving you with the complexities sleeve design.

dont get me wrong, im not taking a swipe at anyone and im not suggesting people should stop doing these sorts of concepts. after all, baseball shirts dont create themselves and these teams would have no identity without their colours, logos and wordmarks. but surely thats as for as you can take it?

like i said, im not having a go at anyone at all. its just something i was thinking about and wondered what others thought!

[capn89]

Is there really a point to anything, really, when we all just die in the end. It gives people something to do, kill some time, get some enjoyment out of it, interact with fellow uniform enthusiasts. It doesn't hurt anyone and you could do far worse things with your time. I don't even mind the people who just copy already existing uniforms, if you get something fun out of it, what does it matter?

[heernumurr]

Is there really a point to anything, really, when we all just die in the end. It gives people something to do, kill some time, get some enjoyment out of it, interact with fellow uniform enthusiasts. It doesn't hurt anyone and you could do far worse things with your time. I don't even mind the people who just copy already existing uniforms, if you get something fun out of it, what does it matter?

I know what youre saying and i agree. im all for fun!

maybe then what im trying to ask is, do people find themselves limited by the conventions of these uniforms?

i know i do, to the point where i dont see the point!

[slapshot]

Technically, all concepts are pointless unless they will eventually be produced as real jerseys or uniforms. But if everyone had that attitude, sports would be very boring from an aesthetic point of view.

There have been some design innovations over the year that range from the bad to the good. All-one color (besides white or gray). Piping. Polyester double-knit pullovers. Mesh side panels. Lace-up collars. Some design elements are purely visual, others are designed that way for the comfort of the players.

Sometimes, it's just a matter of illusion. Side panels and shoulder piping in baseball, combined with tighter-fitting uniforms, gave the impression of faster players. Look at teams in the mid-80's: Mets, Expos, Mariners, Astros. All had shoulder piping, some also had it one the sides, all the way down to the cuffs of the pants.

Necessity breeds innovation. And aesthetics can be used to enhance the technology further, or to minimize the visual impact. Take cool-flow jerseys. On the batting jerseys, the cool-flow areas are different colors. But on home and away jerseys, they are the same primary color as the jersey, so you don't notice them.

This might have progressed beyond the original intended point, but here it is anyway: if people feel the concepts are pointless, then there's no point trying to innovate them, and everyone may as well wear the exact same uniforms, except for colors. That's pretty boring. It looks like gym class.

[capn89]

Is there really a point to anything, really, when we all just die in the end. It gives people something to do, kill some time, get some enjoyment out of it, interact with fellow uniform enthusiasts. It doesn't hurt anyone and you could do far worse things with your time. I don't even mind the people who just copy already existing uniforms, if you get something fun out of it, what does it matter?

I know what youre saying and i agree. im all for fun!

maybe then what im trying to ask is, do people find themselves limited by the conventions of these uniforms?

i know i do, to the point where i dont see the point!

Well see, I can understand that, as well. A lot of people limit themselves simply because so many people ARE limited in their taste of uniforms. "No one" would ever want to see some sort of "bizarre" hockey style baseball uniform, yet I'd be all for that. I used to be well known for my lack of traditional thinking when it came to making hockey uniforms. It really comes down to a designer, at times, getting tired of hearing "that's too crazy for [insert sport or team] and just forcing them self to do something "traditional." I got to the point where I stopped caring if people liked my nuttiness or not and just made what I thought looked good. I'd take ideas from time to time, but I'd never stray from the "odd."

[Mings]

Is there really a point to anything, really, when we all just die in the end. It gives people something to do, kill some time, get some enjoyment out of it, interact with fellow uniform enthusiasts. It doesn't hurt anyone and you could do far worse things with your time. I don't even mind the people who just copy already existing uniforms, if you get something fun out of it, what does it matter?

I know what youre saying and i agree. im all for fun!

maybe then what im trying to ask is, do people find themselves limited by the conventions of these uniforms?

i know i do, to the point where i dont see the point!

Well see, I can understand that, as well. A lot of people limit themselves simply because so many people ARE limited in their taste of uniforms. "No one" would ever want to see some sort of "bizarre" hockey style baseball uniform, yet I'd be all for that. I used to be well known for my lack of traditional thinking when it came to making hockey uniforms. It really comes down to a designer, at times, getting tired of hearing "that's too crazy for [insert sport or team] and just forcing them self to do something "traditional." I got to the point where I stopped caring if people liked my nuttiness or not and just made what I thought looked good. I'd take ideas from time to time, but I'd never stray from the "odd."

You shouldn't stray from doing work that isn't traditional because 1) it is your concept, do what you want 2) no matter what people are going to talk about it, good or bad 3) it makes you take risks 4) you are going to find something unique that really works one of these days.

I'm going to quote a professor here and tell you the advice that he gave me: "Do you want to work for Thom Mayne (meaning take risks, unique, avant garde) or do you want to work for SOM (traditional, not many risks taken)?" Even though that advice was only given to me recently, I know it is going to stick with me for a long time.

[Discrim]

sometimes, yeah. one ironic thing is aside from the Avs, the (big 4 + college) teams I like ooze tradition...yes, even the Bucks. However, I've come to view tradition as a double edged sword, in that for all its good, it can also paralyze you if you let it.

heh, sometimes I find using a traditional pattern somewhat pointless, and sometimes it's just staying true. as it is with capn, seeing things differently is a calling card of my concepts, so I'll find myself putting a baseball jersey's placket to more use than it usually gets, or putting a placket-ish stripe on a hockey jersey. Then there's elements I've used once and never again. Shoot, I'm not above using non-traditional colors.

heh, basically it's boiled down to making concepts and logos I like, and letting the world take a look. Whether anybody else likes em or not aint all that important to me nowadays (and never really was), cus I know whether or not I was able to put out my best on a given concept.

[heernumurr]

i did a hockey concept for liverpool fc ages back with an alternate shirt that some seemed to hate and others seem to love. so i agree totally that you should keep doing what you enjoy. after all, who knows what baseball or football jerseys will look like in 10, 20 years time?

i think most of the time though it is a double edged sword. i love traditional designs, especially the direction some soccer shirts in england have been heading. but at the same time i feel less need to tamper with say, the cubs, the red wings, the yankees because of that.

is it that some uniforms, again especially baseball, have probably already attained their perfect format? or are people like me too defeatest to try something new?

[Chief.]

Football uniforms actually lend themselves greatly to one's creativity. All of the different components allow for a very basic or a very insane design element. I enjoy concepts both for traditional and bold designs because I actually enjoy doing both. The Chiefs concept I did was very traditional with a slight modern twist, and in the meantime, I do crap like this to keep things interesting:

Case in point, think inside the box, outside the box, or completely away from the box, just have fun with it. It's not like these things are ever going to see the field.

[winghaz]

When I look at concepts, the thing that draws my eye the most (as it should be) is the main logo -- the cap or jersey wordmark for baseball, the helmet for football, the wordmark for basketball and the jersey logo for hockey.

Because of that, when I see hockey concepts, I often don't see much of a difference between the new concept and what they have now because the changes in the concept are usually in the striping and not in the logo. I'd much rather see people come up with new logos in hockey concepts rather than new striping.

There are exceptions, of course, as to what I see first. If colors in the concept are really distinct -- such as the switch from yellow to gold in Packer concepts -- that draws my eye first.

[musikology]

I think it's good for people to want to see their favorite team with a different look. I agree that you are limited on what's there to work with. I don't post concepts mainly because I don't have time, and secondly, we can be friggin' brutal here in the boards. It can be an ego-crushing experience.

Of course then you have guys like Patsox, that will continually post crap. But at least he posts, so that puts him one step ahead of me.

[quantum]

Concepts should push design limits more. Most concepts are simple striping changes. That's OK, but I miss the days when the notable more talented board members posted concepts. They first and foremost created new logos, then built uniform sets around them. Logo theft really destroyed a once great aspect of this community.

That said, there is one type of concept that seems pointless. That type is when people merely post a assembly of elements already fielded. The most notable example of late is the love fest over the Bills throwbacks. Do we really need a post that just takes a version of the current helmet and matches it with the throwback? In this example, what seems to be ignored is do the design elements go together.

I realize this board is focused on the enthusiasm for sports identity. I just wish sometimes that the focus leaned more on good design over adhering to tradition for tradition's sake. That isn't to say it should have no influence. It just shouldn't be the overriding factor. The goal is a better identity, and team fanaticism handcuffs the pursuit of better design.

One thing is for sure. If the phrase This is just something I threw together or This is something I whipped up in X amount of time can be applied to your concept, do everyone a favor and don't post it. Those phrases define your concept as crap, and is something not to take pride in.

[josh_cat_eyes]

For me, I hardly ever post responses to football concepts (among others) and its mainly because I cant tell the difference. If someone did something that was completely new or something yeah I would probabaly respond but in terms of just s plain jersey...I find them quite boring and a waste of time.

OH and one more thing...would people stop posting concepts that are not done...yeah I know you are seeing if you are on the right track but most of the time its hard to tell cause they are not done. People need to have a idea, create it, then post it...not just randomly post something just to get their post count up.