stretching the ball over the goal line

[DEAD!]

Regardless of how good the Raiders were in the Regular Season...he only coached for ten years, and only won one Super Bowl. If he had coached longer and still encountered that success, or had won more championships, I would feel differently. He was a good coach, but his coaching career isn't necessary HOF-worthy. The fact he didn't get in until 2006, well after he had established a different legacy and done more for the league as a builder and an ambassador, tends to lend credence to this thought.

Maybe ONLY one Super Bowl, but his record was very good in those ten years, 112-39-7. Maybe had Otto Graham and Jim Brown played ten seasons.... uhh... never mind

Maybe that record was partly the result of the talent on his roster....I'm looking at it and see 6-7 Hall of Famers playing for him, as well as several other good players.

The reason I say, "If he coached longer", is because we don't know what he would have done with a less-talented roster. If he had coached longer, that would likely be the case.

... yeah, so? I'm sure the best coaches in history had 6-7 hall of famers playing for them as well, right? Chuck Knoll, Don Shula, Vince Lombardi, Tom Landry...

[rams80]

Regardless of how good the Raiders were in the Regular Season...he only coached for ten years, and only won one Super Bowl. If he had coached longer and still encountered that success, or had won more championships, I would feel differently. He was a good coach, but his coaching career isn't necessary HOF-worthy. The fact he didn't get in until 2006, well after he had established a different legacy and done more for the league as a builder and an ambassador, tends to lend credence to this thought.

Maybe ONLY one Super Bowl, but his record was very good in those ten years, 112-39-7. Maybe had Otto Graham and Jim Brown played ten seasons.... uhh... never mind

Maybe that record was partly the result of the talent on his roster....I'm looking at it and see 6-7 Hall of Famers playing for him, as well as several other good players.

The reason I say, "If he coached longer", is because we don't know what he would have done with a less-talented roster. If he had coached longer, that would likely be the case.

... yeah, so? I'm sure the best coaches in history had 6-7 hall of famers playing for them as well, right? Chuck Knoll, Don Shula, Vince Lombardi, Tom Landry...

The same 6-7 guys for their entire coaching careers?

[DEAD!]

... yeah, so? I'm sure the best coaches in history had 6-7 hall of famers playing for them as well, right? Chuck Knoll, Don Shula, Vince Lombardi, Tom Landry...

The same 6-7 guys for their entire coaching careers?

I'm talking about, for the most part, the 6-7 guys who won the Super Bowl(s). Heck, Vince Lombardi didn't coach that long himself.

[rams80]

... yeah, so? I'm sure the best coaches in history had 6-7 hall of famers playing for them as well, right? Chuck Knoll, Don Shula, Vince Lombardi, Tom Landry...

The same 6-7 guys for their entire coaching careers?

I'm talking about, for the most part, the 6-7 guys who won the Super Bowl(s). Heck, Vince Lombardi didn't coach that long himself.

Yes....but he also won more championships.

[rmered]

Plus...how many football-themed movies have we seen in which a player was shown, mostly in slow motion, doing all he can to ssssttttttttrrrrreeeeeetttccchh out for each and every extra inch he can get?

Pick a football movie...I betcha there's probably a sequence in which someone is seen ssssssttttttttrrrrrrreeeeeeeettttccccchhhiinnng himself thinking he Mr. Fantastic or something, doing all he can for them extra inches.

Al Pacino. He fought for inches.

[Mac the Knife]

Oh, where to begin here...

A regular season record of 112-39-7, which in terms of win percentage ranked him alongside some guy who coached in Wisconsin. Oh, what was his name... oh, yeah... LOMBARDI. Let's look at some other comparatives, just for the hell of it:

Lombardi teams appeared in NFL championship games in 1960, 1961, 1962, 1965, 1966 an 1967. At the time the NFL comprised between 13-16 teams. Madden teams appeared in AFL/AFC championship games in 1969, 1970, 1973, 1974, 1975, 1976 and 1977. At the time the AFL/AFC comprised 13 teams. No other AFC team has played in five straight conference championship games, win or lose, and the only club that ever bested the Raiders' mark during this era was the Cleveland Browns, who appeared in 10 straight AAFC/NFL championship games from 1946-55.

True, Lombardi won five NFL titles while Madden won but a single AFC title. But Lombardi didn't have the likes of the competition Madden had in the 1970's versions of the Miami Dolphins, Baltimore Colts, and Pittsburgh Steelers. Lombardi's biggest competition during his era was Tom Landry's Dallas Cowboys, and even then they were considered a team "up and coming" more than a serious contender to actually beat the Packers.

Lombardi left no lasting legacy in Green Bay, as the franchise went a quarter century or so without playing in another significant championship game. Madden's legacy was felt for years after his departure, as the Raiders went on to win championships in the year after he left (1980) and again in 1983 under Tom Flores.

So yeah, Lombardi won more championships. No argument there. But Lombardi never coached in the (by then) 26-team NFL. Madden did, and posted Lombardi-like numbers as a coach doing so.

[DG_ThenNowForever]

So yeah, Lombardi won more championships. No argument there. But Lombardi never coached in the (by then) 26-team NFL. Madden did, and posted Lombardi-like numbers as a coach doing so.

Plus, he somehow fit into these pants:

That's got to be worth something.

[rams80]

Oh, where to begin here...

A regular season record of 112-39-7, which in terms of win percentage ranked him alongside some guy who coached in Wisconsin. Oh, what was his name... oh, yeah... LOMBARDI. Let's look at some other comparatives, just for the hell of it:

Lombardi teams appeared in NFL championship games in 1960, 1961, 1962, 1965, 1966 an 1967. At the time the NFL comprised between 13-16 teams. Madden teams appeared in AFL/AFC championship games in 1969, 1970, 1973, 1974, 1975, 1976 and 1977. At the time the AFL/AFC comprised 13 teams. No other AFC team has played in five straight conference championship games, win or lose, and the only club that ever bested the Raiders' mark during this era was the Cleveland Browns, who appeared in 10 straight AAFC/NFL championship games from 1946-55.

True, Lombardi won five NFL titles while Madden won but a single AFC title. But Lombardi didn't have the likes of the competition Madden had in the 1970's versions of the Miami Dolphins, Baltimore Colts, and Pittsburgh Steelers. Lombardi's biggest competition during his era was Tom Landry's Dallas Cowboys, and even then they were considered a team "up and coming" more than a serious contender to actually beat the Packers.

Lombardi left no lasting legacy in Green Bay, as the franchise went a quarter century or so without playing in another significant championship game. Madden's legacy was felt for years after his departure, as the Raiders went on to win championships in the year after he left (1980) and again in 1983 under Tom Flores.

So yeah, Lombardi won more championships. No argument there. But Lombardi never coached in the (by then) 26-team NFL. Madden did, and posted Lombardi-like numbers as a coach doing so.

1) I don't think you'd dispute that it would be difficult for Green Bay to attract needed talent in the pre-Salary Cap NFL. It'd be easier in Oakland and then Los Angeles, which are both more desirable markets, and have an owner willing to spend money.

2) Madden also inherited a good team.

Again...the biggest proof I have that he isn't in necessarily for coaching is the fact it took the NFL almost 30 years to put him in the Hall of Fame. By contrast, Landry was in 2 years after leaving the profession, Shula was also in after 2 years, as was Lombardi and Chuck Noll. By the time he was inducted, he was far more known as an announcer (and namesake of video games) to at least one full generation of NFL fans.

[Grish]

Oh, where to begin here...

A regular season record of 112-39-7, which in terms of win percentage ranked him alongside some guy who coached in Wisconsin. Oh, what was his name... oh, yeah... LOMBARDI. Let's look at some other comparatives, just for the hell of it:

Lombardi teams appeared in NFL championship games in 1960, 1961, 1962, 1965, 1966 an 1967. At the time the NFL comprised between 13-16 teams. Madden teams appeared in AFL/AFC championship games in 1969, 1970, 1973, 1974, 1975, 1976 and 1977. At the time the AFL/AFC comprised 13 teams. No other AFC team has played in five straight conference championship games, win or lose, and the only club that ever bested the Raiders' mark during this era was the Cleveland Browns, who appeared in 10 straight AAFC/NFL championship games from 1946-55.

True, Lombardi won five NFL titles while Madden won but a single AFC title. But Lombardi didn't have the likes of the competition Madden had in the 1970's versions of the Miami Dolphins, Baltimore Colts, and Pittsburgh Steelers. Lombardi's biggest competition during his era was Tom Landry's Dallas Cowboys, and even then they were considered a team "up and coming" more than a serious contender to actually beat the Packers.

Lombardi left no lasting legacy in Green Bay, as the franchise went a quarter century or so without playing in another significant championship game. Madden's legacy was felt for years after his departure, as the Raiders went on to win championships in the year after he left (1980) and again in 1983 under Tom Flores.

So yeah, Lombardi won more championships. No argument there. But Lombardi never coached in the (by then) 26-team NFL. Madden did, and posted Lombardi-like numbers as a coach doing so.

1) I don't think you'd dispute that it would be difficult for Green Bay to attract needed talent in the pre-Salary Cap NFL. It'd be easier in Oakland and then Los Angeles, which are both more desirable markets, and have an owner willing to spend money.

2) Madden also inherited a good team.

Again...the biggest proof I have that he isn't in necessarily for coaching is the fact it took the NFL almost 30 years to put him in the Hall of Fame. By contrast, Landry was in 2 years after leaving the profession, Shula was also in after 2 years, as was Lombardi and Chuck Noll. By the time he was inducted, he was far more known as an announcer (and namesake of video games) to at least one full generation of NFL fans.

And when he inherited that team he was the YOUNGEST coach in the NFL and that same set of players had not been achieving their ability. Yes, I think he left premature and so it is. The length in which it takes someone to get into the HOF fame is invalid, heck there are players that are not in because of the position they played, example: Ray Guy. He should be in the HOF, but because the voters don't see value in a punter he is not, this does not take away from his career. Plus, there is more weighed into the vote then just someone's availability. Remember the Raiders faced the Steelers for most of the decade of the 70's, also remember those names you are placing him with had more then 6-7 HOF players on their rosters. -- and if your discounting on the number of HOF's one coached Lombardi should not be considered a great coach he had 11 HOF players playing for him, so he had 4 more then Noll so Chucky must be the greatest.

VINCE LOMBARDI (From the HOF?s website) - HERB ADDERLEY (1980) - 1961-1969, WILLIE DAVIS (1981) - 1960-1969, FORREST GREGG (1977) - 1956, 1958-1970, PAUL HORNUNG (1986) - 1957-1962, 1964-1966, HENRY JORDAN (1995) - 1959-1969, RAY NITSCHKE (1978) - 1958-1972, JIM RINGO (1981) - 1953-1963, BART STARR (1977) - 1956-1971, JIM TAYLOR (1976) - 1958-1966, Emlen Tunnell (1967) - 1959-1961, WILLIE WOOD (1989) - 1960-1971

[rams80]

Oh, where to begin here...

A regular season record of 112-39-7, which in terms of win percentage ranked him alongside some guy who coached in Wisconsin. Oh, what was his name... oh, yeah... LOMBARDI. Let's look at some other comparatives, just for the hell of it:

Lombardi teams appeared in NFL championship games in 1960, 1961, 1962, 1965, 1966 an 1967. At the time the NFL comprised between 13-16 teams. Madden teams appeared in AFL/AFC championship games in 1969, 1970, 1973, 1974, 1975, 1976 and 1977. At the time the AFL/AFC comprised 13 teams. No other AFC team has played in five straight conference championship games, win or lose, and the only club that ever bested the Raiders' mark during this era was the Cleveland Browns, who appeared in 10 straight AAFC/NFL championship games from 1946-55.

True, Lombardi won five NFL titles while Madden won but a single AFC title. But Lombardi didn't have the likes of the competition Madden had in the 1970's versions of the Miami Dolphins, Baltimore Colts, and Pittsburgh Steelers. Lombardi's biggest competition during his era was Tom Landry's Dallas Cowboys, and even then they were considered a team "up and coming" more than a serious contender to actually beat the Packers.

Lombardi left no lasting legacy in Green Bay, as the franchise went a quarter century or so without playing in another significant championship game. Madden's legacy was felt for years after his departure, as the Raiders went on to win championships in the year after he left (1980) and again in 1983 under Tom Flores.

So yeah, Lombardi won more championships. No argument there. But Lombardi never coached in the (by then) 26-team NFL. Madden did, and posted Lombardi-like numbers as a coach doing so.

1) I don't think you'd dispute that it would be difficult for Green Bay to attract needed talent in the pre-Salary Cap NFL. It'd be easier in Oakland and then Los Angeles, which are both more desirable markets, and have an owner willing to spend money.

2) Madden also inherited a good team.

Again...the biggest proof I have that he isn't in necessarily for coaching is the fact it took the NFL almost 30 years to put him in the Hall of Fame. By contrast, Landry was in 2 years after leaving the profession, Shula was also in after 2 years, as was Lombardi and Chuck Noll. By the time he was inducted, he was far more known as an announcer (and namesake of video games) to at least one full generation of NFL fans.

And when he inherited that team he was the YOUNGEST coach in the NFL and that same set of players had not been achieving their ability. Yes, I think he left premature and so it is. The length in which it takes someone to get into the HOF fame is invalid, heck there are players that are not in because of the position they played, example: Ray Guy. He should be in the HOF, but because the voters don't see value in a punter he is not, this does not take away from his career. Plus, there is more weighed into the vote then just someone's availability. Remember the Raiders faced the Steelers for most of the decade of the 70's, also remember those names you are placing him with had more then 6-7 HOF players on their rosters. -- and if your discounting on the number of HOF's one coached Lombardi should not be considered a great coach he had 11 HOF players playing for him, so he had 4 more then Noll so Chucky must be the greatest.

VINCE LOMBARDI (From the HOF?s website) - HERB ADDERLEY (1980) - 1961-1969, WILLIE DAVIS (1981) - 1960-1969, FORREST GREGG (1977) - 1956, 1958-1970, PAUL HORNUNG (1986) - 1957-1962, 1964-1966, HENRY JORDAN (1995) - 1959-1969, RAY NITSCHKE (1978) - 1958-1972, JIM RINGO (1981) - 1953-1963, BART STARR (1977) - 1956-1971, JIM TAYLOR (1976) - 1958-1966, Emlen Tunnell (1967) - 1959-1961, WILLIE WOOD (1989) - 1960-1971

I'm not disputing Madden was a good coach. I'm disputing that he is in the Hall of Fame because he was a good coach.

[Mac the Knife]

1) I don't think you'd dispute that it would be difficult for Green Bay to attract needed talent in the pre-Salary Cap NFL. It'd be easier in Oakland and then Los Angeles, which are both more desirable markets, and have an owner willing to spend money.

2) Madden also inherited a good team.

Once again a gratutiously demonstrated lack of knowledge.

(1) Who, exactly, would the Packers have to 'attract?' There was no such thing as free agency in pro football during Lombardi's time, and barely one during Madden's. If you were drafted, you either signed or you didn't play. If you were a free agent, you hoped like hell someone - anyone - called you. Otherwise, you were selling insurance or carpeting for a living.

(2) Madden inherited a team that was slightly on an upswing, but you greatly discount the fact that his excellence was sustained over a Bill Walsh-like period of time. You don't do that in the NFL without a LOT of personnel turnover, and Madden experienced that as well.

(3) It could be argued that HOF voters waited to induct Madden because of a possible desire to return to coaching. HOF voters hate to induct someone they think might return (some lament inducting Joe Gibbs, for example). Bill Parcells could've been in the HOF three years after his Giants days except that he kept taking coaching jobs, usually just about the time HOF voters were to consider letting him in. In Madden's case it could simply be that they erred on the side of caution, having been burned by Gibbs and nearly so by Parcells. HOF voters knew Landry wasn't coming back, nor were Shula or Noll - "coach free agency" wasn't a common thing back then... and by the time Lombardi became HOF eligible, he wasn't going anywhere as he was dead. Dick Vermeil bounced back into coaching after nearly TWO DECADES OFF. You don't think it crossed the minds of some HOF voters that Madden could potentially do the same?

[BlueSky]

LT just stretched the ball across the goal line for a touchdown. If he didn't do that, it would be a one possession game and the Titans would have the ball.

Or if he hadn't been illegally pushed forward by his lineman...

Sorry. Pet peeve of mine. Plus I'm rooting for Tennessee. Therefore...figure I'll bring it up a lot.

This was an interesting play. His forward progress was clearly stopped, if only for a moment, and he was actually pushed back to some degree. Frankly, I couldn't decide whether the play should have been blown dead then or not. But let's say for argument's sake that at the moment LT was about to stretch the ball over the goal line, something different had happened - say one of the Titans slapped the ball out of LT's hands, scooped it up, and returned it for a TD. You can bet your a** the Chargers would have been howling that his progress was stopped, the play should have been blown dead, blah blah blah.

Sorry to butt in with an on-topic post...

[rams80]

(3) It could be argued that HOF voters waited to induct Madden because of a possible desire to return to coaching. HOF voters hate to induct someone they think might return (some lament inducting Joe Gibbs, for example). Bill Parcells could've been in the HOF three years after his Giants days except that he kept taking coaching jobs, usually just about the time HOF voters were to consider letting him in. In Madden's case it could simply be that they erred on the side of caution, having been burned by Gibbs and nearly so by Parcells. HOF voters knew Landry wasn't coming back, nor were Shula or Noll - "coach free agency" wasn't a common thing back then... and by the time Lombardi became HOF eligible, he wasn't going anywhere as he was dead. Dick Vermeil bounced back into coaching after nearly TWO DECADES OFF. You don't think it crossed the minds of some HOF voters that Madden could potentially do the same?

I don't have salary figures in front of me....but Madden did become the top broadcaster for CBS in 1981. Something tells me that Madden commanded more money as a broadcaster than he would as a coach....for a job that is in all likelihood much more secure and less stressful than coaching at the NFL level. What is the incentive to come back? (Also...the team would probably make him get on the team charter if he was hired...not let him simply drive the Madden Cruiser to games.)

Have teams asked him to come back as a coach?

[Mac the Knife]

I don't have salary figures in front of me....but Madden did become the top broadcaster for CBS in 1981. Something tells me that Madden commanded more money as a broadcaster than he would as a coach....for a job that is in all likelihood much more secure and less stressful than coaching at the NFL level. What is the incentive to come back? (Also...the team would probably make him get on the team charter if he was hired...not let him simply drive the Madden Cruiser to games.)

Have teams asked him to come back as a coach?

Madden left coaching due to ulcers. He went into broadcasting and yes, he makes more money today than he ever would have coaching. No argument there. Such was not the case however until the late 80's/early 90's by which time (i) someone figured out a way to whack out an ulcer with a pill rather than invasive surgery, and (ii) he'd been rumored on several occasions to be going back to the NFL sidelines.

And I suspect that a team hiring John Madden as its head coach would've let him do pretty much any damned thing he wanted. If I owned an NFL franchise and had the opportunity to have someone of his calibre, experience and record as my head coach, I'd let him travel to game sites in a roman chariot if he wanted as long as he got there by game day.

[rams80]

I don't have salary figures in front of me....but Madden did become the top broadcaster for CBS in 1981. Something tells me that Madden commanded more money as a broadcaster than he would as a coach....for a job that is in all likelihood much more secure and less stressful than coaching at the NFL level. What is the incentive to come back? (Also...the team would probably make him get on the team charter if he was hired...not let him simply drive the Madden Cruiser to games.)

Have teams asked him to come back as a coach?

Madden left coaching due to ulcers. He went into broadcasting and yes, he makes more money today than he ever would have coaching. No argument there. Such was not the case however until the late 80's/early 90's by which time (i) someone figured out a way to whack out an ulcer with a pill rather than invasive surgery, and (ii) he'd been rumored on several occasions to be going back to the NFL sidelines.

And I suspect that a team hiring John Madden as its head coach would've let him do pretty much any damned thing he wanted. If I owned an NFL franchise and had the opportunity to have someone of his calibre, experience and record as my head coach, I'd let him travel to game sites in a roman chariot if he wanted as long as he got there by game day.

Practices might be a tad difficult, though, especially before long road trips.

Still....what are the rules regarding the Veterans Committee voting guys into the Hall (eligibility and the like...)

[DG_ThenNowForever]

I like how this thread has become a referendum on John Madden's coaching career, while this one is a referendum on Frank Caliendo's. Brilliant.

[gingerbreadmann]

So yeah, Lombardi won more championships. No argument there. But Lombardi never coached in the (by then) 26-team NFL. Madden did, and posted Lombardi-like numbers as a coach doing so.

Plus, he somehow fit into these pants:

That's got to be worth something.

Seconded. Best post in this thread, lol