HedleyLamarr Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 Even Chase Utley would be a better MVP candidate than Ryan ".250" Howard.You go beyond the "sexy" stats of HR and RBI(which is largely based on circumstances and not talent), and Howard DOES NOT TOUCH PUJOLS IN ANYTHING.RUNS CREATED: Pujols - 160, Howard - 113 (not even Top 10 in the NL)ADJUSTED BATTING RUNS: Pujols - 77, Howard - 18BATTING WINS: Pujols - 7.1, Howard - 1.7VALUE OVER REPLACEMENT PLAYER: Pujols - 96.7, Howard - 35.2How are these not DWARFING offensive superiority?You show me how many voters make their MVP decisions based on batting wins and these other stats, and I'll sell you some oceanfront property in Arizona near John McCain's numerous houses.We aren't arguing about who had the better stats, we're arguing about value to the team and how this player affected it. St. Louis finished 4th in their division with Pujols, and likely finishes 4th without him (because the Reds and Pirates suck). Philadelphia finished just 3 games ahead of the Mets in the division and 2 games ahead of Milwaukee for the Wild Card spot. Did Ryan Howard play a significant role in leading the Phillies to at least four of their wins during the season, especially the games in September? You bet your ass he did. The Phillies don't make the playoffs without Ryan Howard. The Cardinals already didn't qualify for the playoffs with Pujols.The voters care about two things when it comes to the MVP: stats in the "sexy" categories, and their performance down the stretch in getting their team to the postseason. The only way a player on a non-playoff contending should get considered for MVP is if their stats, the sexy ones and the math-adjusted ones, absolutely dwarf everyone else. Just how valuable can a player be if his team doesn't make it to postseason play? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mania Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 And you once again completely sidestep that they wouldn't have needed such a good September from him if he hadn't been absolutely horrible most of the season. Off The Top Rope: A Pro Wrestling Podcast Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cujo Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 White Sox 1,Twins 0 - FinalChicago wins game number 163 and the AL Central. The 2008 MLB Regular Season is over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris062190 Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 White Sox are the AL Central Champs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnWis97 Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 The Twins got what they deserved. The Sox, the better team, continued to open the door for them. 2 of 3 from the Royals at home. That's all they needed. Disclaimer: If this comment is about an NBA uniform from 2017-2018 or later, do not constitute a lack of acknowledgement of the corporate logo to mean anything other than "the corporate logo is terrible and makes the uniform significantly worse." BADGERS TWINS VIKINGS TIMBERWOLVES WILD POTD (Shared) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infrared41 Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 Sox win. The "red line?" (I heard them refer to it on the ESPN call of the game) series is a possibility. That ball Thome hit just landed in my back yard. Helluva catch to end the game too. Can I just add this to the MVP debate? It is the most ridiculous award MLB hands out every season. If the award is based on who is most valuable to their team then I think making the playoffs should not matter. I look at it like this, how much worse would the team be without that player? In St. Louis' case I'd say they aren't even in the hunt without Pujols. Same thing for Ryan Howard. Or Carlos Delgado. Etc. Personally I don't care who wins the damn thing. The whole process is silly. Just my opinion. Resume arguing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerbreadmann Posted October 1, 2008 Author Share Posted October 1, 2008 Even Chase Utley would be a better MVP candidate than Ryan ".250" Howard.You go beyond the "sexy" stats of HR and RBI(which is largely based on circumstances and not talent), and Howard DOES NOT TOUCH PUJOLS IN ANYTHING.RUNS CREATED: Pujols - 160, Howard - 113 (not even Top 10 in the NL)ADJUSTED BATTING RUNS: Pujols - 77, Howard - 18BATTING WINS: Pujols - 7.1, Howard - 1.7VALUE OVER REPLACEMENT PLAYER: Pujols - 96.7, Howard - 35.2How are these not DWARFING offensive superiority?You show me how many voters make their MVP decisions based on batting wins and these other stats, and I'll sell you some oceanfront property in Arizona near John McCain's numerous houses.We aren't arguing about who had the better stats, we're arguing about value to the team and how this player affected it. St. Louis finished 4th in their division with Pujols, and likely finishes 4th without him (because the Reds and Pirates suck). Philadelphia finished just 3 games ahead of the Mets in the division and 2 games ahead of Milwaukee for the Wild Card spot. Did Ryan Howard play a significant role in leading the Phillies to at least four of their wins during the season, especially the games in September? You bet your ass he did. The Phillies don't make the playoffs without Ryan Howard. The Cardinals already didn't qualify for the playoffs with Pujols.The voters care about two things when it comes to the MVP: stats in the "sexy" categories, and their performance down the stretch in getting their team to the postseason. The only way a player on a non-playoff contending should get considered for MVP is if their stats, the sexy ones and the math-adjusted ones, absolutely dwarf everyone else. Just how valuable can a player be if his team doesn't make it to postseason play?Let me just say, you're categorizing "should get considered" as "will likely be considered based on what the voters actually vote on." We know how they vote, but does that make it a good decision? Do you agree with the voters' criteria?Oh, and like bruschi said, if Howard didn't suck up the entire joint for 5 months he wouldn't have had to play such a big role in September, cause they'd have already clinched. Yes, just because of this he will get consideration but how in the :censored:ing world does that make him deserve it? A few years ago Chris Shelton absolutely pounded the ball like Stan Musial in April and after that fell apart completely. This is the year the Tigers made the WS. If his season was reversed, would he deserve to get MVP?jkr, you're right, I got the years mixed up. I meant the year they made the Wild Card and the Yankees won the div. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HedleyLamarr Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 And you once again completely sidestep that they wouldn't have needed such a good September from him if he hadn't been absolutely horrible most of the season.Guess what? Most of the Phillies roster struggled for a good portion of the season.Howard manned-up and carried his team to the playoffs in September. What did Pujols do during September when the Cardinals were still mathematically in contention? Whatever it was, it wasn't enough. Howard has proven himself to be a clutch hitter in September his entire career.Weren't the Cardinals within 4-6 games of first in the Central and/or the Wild Card entering September? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
See Red Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 Twins got screwed with the coin toss.Neither team could beat the other on the road... the Twins earned the right to host the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rams80 Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 And you once again completely sidestep that they wouldn't have needed such a good September from him if he hadn't been absolutely horrible most of the season.Guess what? Most of the Phillies roster struggled for a good portion of the season.Howard manned-up and carried his team to the playoffs in September. What did Pujols do during September when the Cardinals were still mathematically in contention? Whatever it was, it wasn't enough. Howard has proven himself to be a clutch hitter in September his entire career.Weren't the Cardinals within 4-6 games of first in the Central and/or the Wild Card entering September?Short answer: Pujols can't pitch. Neither can the Cardinals*rim shot* On 8/1/2010 at 4:01 PM, winters in buffalo said: You manage to balance agitation with just enough salient points to keep things interesting. Kind of a low-rent DG_Now. On 1/2/2011 at 9:07 PM, Sodboy13 said: Today, we are all otaku. "The city of Peoria was once the site of the largest distillery in the world and later became the site for mass production of penicillin. So it is safe to assume that present-day Peorians are descended from syphilitic boozehounds."-Stephen Colbert POTD: February 15, 2010, June 20, 2010 The Glorious Bloom State Penguins (NCFAF) 2014: 2-9, 2015: 7-5 (L Pineapple Bowl), 2016: 1-0 (NCFAB) 2014-15: 10-8, 2015-16: 14-5 (SMC Champs, L 1st Round February Frenzy) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mania Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 Pujols' September: .321/.427/.702But that performance is somehow less valuable just because they have to let 8 other people hit in between at bats, and Pujols can't play every position on the field and pitch, too. Off The Top Rope: A Pro Wrestling Podcast Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcgd Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 Sox win. The "red line?" (I heard them refer to it on the ESPN call of the game) series is a possibility. That ball Thome hit just landed in my back yard. Helluva catch to end the game too.Personally I'd call it "The Windy Series"I can't believe they don't call the annual matchup between them that instead of "The Crosstown Classic"I'm making up the t-shirts now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HedleyLamarr Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 And you once again completely sidestep that they wouldn't have needed such a good September from him if he hadn't been absolutely horrible most of the season.Guess what? Most of the Phillies roster struggled for a good portion of the season.Howard manned-up and carried his team to the playoffs in September. What did Pujols do during September when the Cardinals were still mathematically in contention? Whatever it was, it wasn't enough. Howard has proven himself to be a clutch hitter in September his entire career.Weren't the Cardinals within 4-6 games of first in the Central and/or the Wild Card entering September?Short answer: Pujols can't pitch. Neither can the Cardinals*rim shot*The Phillies weren't exactly pitching the lights out, either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshawaggie Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 2 LAs2 Chicagos0 New YorksWho woulda thunk. @josh_j12 CFA- Fargo Bobcats Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infrared41 Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 2 LAs2 Chicagos0 New YorksWho woulda thunk.And one Boston too many. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eye Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 Even Chase Utley would be a better MVP candidate than Ryan ".250" Howard.You go beyond the "sexy" stats of HR and RBI(which is largely based on circumstances and not talent), and Howard DOES NOT TOUCH PUJOLS IN ANYTHING.RUNS CREATED: Pujols - 160, Howard - 113 (not even Top 10 in the NL)ADJUSTED BATTING RUNS: Pujols - 77, Howard - 18BATTING WINS: Pujols - 7.1, Howard - 1.7VALUE OVER REPLACEMENT PLAYER: Pujols - 96.7, Howard - 35.2How are these not DWARFING offensive superiority?On all of these, Howard isn't first on his own team(that would be Utley).Howard winning MVP would be a horrendously stupid move, because he was flat out bad for every month but two. .172 in April, .238 in May, .234 in June, .213 in August. How damn valuable was he those months? If he had played like an MVP all season long, the Phillies would've locked up the NL East a whole HELL of a lot sooner than September 27th.So you say Pujols has better stats than Howard. One person may say he does and another may not. If someone says Pujols stats are better than Howard's, it is a valid argument; however, if someone says that Pujols is more valuable than someone (in this case Howard or whoever wins the MVP as long as their team is in the playoffs), I would disagree.My point is not necessarily that Howard should be MVP, but that Pujols should not. People can make a case for Howard being the MVP, but they cannot for Pujols. Pujols' team did not make the playoffs; therefore, he is not as valuable as whoever wins the MVP (as long as the MVP winner's team is in the playoffs.) If the Cardinals can lose with Pujols, then couldn't they lose without Pujols? It is very likely; therefore, Pujols is not the Most Valuable Player. He does have some value, but not nearly enough to win the MVP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mania Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 So, no matter how many wins you've accounted for for your team, if they're not one of the 4 best in the league, you can't be MVP?Mind-numbing logic, here. Off The Top Rope: A Pro Wrestling Podcast Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rams80 Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 So, no matter how many wins you've accounted for for your team, if they're not one of the 4 best in the league, you can't be MVP?Mind-numbing logic, here.Well...the Cardinals did have a better record that one playoff team in their league. On 8/1/2010 at 4:01 PM, winters in buffalo said: You manage to balance agitation with just enough salient points to keep things interesting. Kind of a low-rent DG_Now. On 1/2/2011 at 9:07 PM, Sodboy13 said: Today, we are all otaku. "The city of Peoria was once the site of the largest distillery in the world and later became the site for mass production of penicillin. So it is safe to assume that present-day Peorians are descended from syphilitic boozehounds."-Stephen Colbert POTD: February 15, 2010, June 20, 2010 The Glorious Bloom State Penguins (NCFAF) 2014: 2-9, 2015: 7-5 (L Pineapple Bowl), 2016: 1-0 (NCFAB) 2014-15: 10-8, 2015-16: 14-5 (SMC Champs, L 1st Round February Frenzy) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mania Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 I don't know if a player from a last place team has a legitimate statement for MVP, but if you keep your team at least viable throughout the season, then you deserve consideration. And with 86 wins, Pujols did that for the Cardinals. It would be different if they had 56 wins, but they don't.And on top of that, as previously pointed out, Ryan Howard is an awful candidate. Off The Top Rope: A Pro Wrestling Podcast Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcgd Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 Even Chase Utley would be a better MVP candidate than Ryan ".250" Howard.You go beyond the "sexy" stats of HR and RBI(which is largely based on circumstances and not talent), and Howard DOES NOT TOUCH PUJOLS IN ANYTHING.RUNS CREATED: Pujols - 160, Howard - 113 (not even Top 10 in the NL)ADJUSTED BATTING RUNS: Pujols - 77, Howard - 18BATTING WINS: Pujols - 7.1, Howard - 1.7VALUE OVER REPLACEMENT PLAYER: Pujols - 96.7, Howard - 35.2How are these not DWARFING offensive superiority?On all of these, Howard isn't first on his own team(that would be Utley).Howard winning MVP would be a horrendously stupid move, because he was flat out bad for every month but two. .172 in April, .238 in May, .234 in June, .213 in August. How damn valuable was he those months? If he had played like an MVP all season long, the Phillies would've locked up the NL East a whole HELL of a lot sooner than September 27th.So you say Pujols has better stats than Howard. One person may say he does and another may not. If someone says Pujols stats are better than Howard's, it is a valid argument; however, if someone says that Pujols is more valuable than someone (in this case Howard or whoever wins the MVP as long as their team is in the playoffs), I would disagree.My point is not necessarily that Howard should be MVP, but that Pujols should not. People can make a case for Howard being the MVP, but they cannot for Pujols. Pujols' team did not make the playoffs; therefore, he is not as valuable as whoever wins the MVP (as long as the MVP winner's team is in the playoffs.) If the Cardinals can lose with Pujols, then couldn't they lose without Pujols? It is very likely; therefore, Pujols is not the Most Valuable Player. He does have some value, but not nearly enough to win the MVP.You can have the most valuable player on a bad team. I'll take the arguement that the Cardinals would have finished 4th anyway without Pujols as a legitimate reason for not voting him as MVP. I'm ok with that. But I don't think the player HAS to be on a playoff team. I think its rediculous to say that. No player has complete control over his team making or not making the playoffs. Howard did not do it alone. You take Utley off the team they don't make the playoffs. You take hamel off the team they don't make the playoffs. Are they MVPs too? I just think its dumb to vote for or against a player, in any INDIVIDUAL award based on their team's performance. That's including using things like RBI's, Runs, Wins (all dependent on what the players around you do) too much into your decision making process. All that should play a part, but it shouldn't be a sole deciding factor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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