Colts looking for new horse

[Sterling84]

I was trying to reconcile my desire for success, against the blatant embarrassment this type of ?contest? is to all designers.

I got carried away for a time, but some conversations with some people that I trust helped change my mind...back to where it should have been all along I feel.

It?s not bad enough that the ?prize? for this design work is under-priced to a criminal degree. But keep in mind the work may be (and probably will be) bastardized beyond recognition. This is an underhanded focus group charade to get the first round of ideas for free. The winner (if there is a winner) will be in name only.

Would you enter a contest to ?guest-write? an episode of The Office if the prize was a $50 Shakeys gift card? You?d be tempted, but the damage would be done to you and other writers.

So anyway, yeah, I?m out.

What I?d love to do is finish the concept anyway and post it here entitled ?NOT for submittal to the Colts contest?. I won?t try and stir the pot any further, but that would be an awesome thread. 15-20 concepts that all put the actual entries to shame?..each reading NOT for submittal. With some kind of ?united? banner to accompany each image.

Mr. Sterling -- care to elaborate on your change of heart?

[steiny_ramone]

All designs submitted should incorporate a youthful hose that is ?playful yet strong,? and which should appeal to Colts fans.

So you gonna vectorize that and send it in?

It IS blue...

And if I had the talent to design a professional logo, I wouldn't. Not for this contest. The amount of money you will get is nothing campared to the amount they will make off it. But that's just me..

[Waffles]

I was trying to reconcile my desire for success, against the blatant embarrassment this type of ?contest? is to all designers.

I got carried away for a time, but some conversations with some people that I trust helped change my mind...back to where it should have been all along I feel.

It?s not bad enough that the ?prize? for this design work is under-priced to a criminal degree. But keep in mind the work may be (and probably will be) bastardized beyond recognition. This is an underhanded focus group charade to get the first round of ideas for free. The winner (if there is a winner) will be in name only.

Would you enter a contest to ?guest-write? an episode of The Office if the prize was a $50 Shakeys gift card? You?d be tempted, but the damage would be done to you and other writers.

So anyway, yeah, I?m out.

What I?d love to do is finish the concept anyway and post it here entitled ?NOT for submittal to the Colts contest?. I won?t try and stir the pot any further, but that would be an awesome thread. 15-20 concepts that all put the actual entries to shame?..each reading NOT for submittal. With some kind of ?united? banner to accompany each image.

Mr. Sterling -- care to elaborate on your change of heart?

Thank you, not only for resisting this scam, but for expressing eloquently why any self- and profession-respecting designer should do the same.

[DEAD!]

All designs submitted should incorporate a youthful hose that is ?playful yet strong,? and which should appeal to Colts fans.

So you gonna vectorize that and send it in?

I don't know if I would send it in, if I were him... he'll end up getting hosed.

[flynnagain]

I was trying to reconcile my desire for success, against the blatant embarrassment this type of ?contest? is to all designers.

I got carried away for a time, but some conversations with some people that I trust helped change my mind...back to where it should have been all along I feel.

It?s not bad enough that the ?prize? for this design work is under-priced to a criminal degree. But keep in mind the work may be (and probably will be) bastardized beyond recognition. This is an underhanded focus group charade to get the first round of ideas for free. The winner (if there is a winner) will be in name only.

Would you enter a contest to ?guest-write? an episode of The Office if the prize was a $50 Shakeys gift card? You?d be tempted, but the damage would be done to you and other writers.

So anyway, yeah, I?m out.

What I?d love to do is finish the concept anyway and post it here entitled ?NOT for submittal to the Colts contest?. I won?t try and stir the pot any further, but that would be an awesome thread. 15-20 concepts that all put the actual entries to shame?..each reading NOT for submittal. With some kind of ?united? banner to accompany each image.

Mr. Sterling -- care to elaborate on your change of heart?

great call man .....just think how good you will feel when the idea you held back is sold to another client down the road....

[andrewharrington]

Even if you signed your rights away and the Colts systematically 'stole' your work and used it without compensating you (which they are legally allowed to do, with any of the submitted logos), there's still a certain novelty in having your logo seen week in and week out by millions of fans, both in person and on national television, and being able to say, "I did that. That's my work on coach's sweater." Yeah, the comp. is insulting, as is the process by which they are going about this, being a successful franchise in the planet's richest league, but it shouldn't always be about the money. Sometimes it needs to be about the accomplishment, regardless of the prize.

[pcgd]

Could this work?

Come on...its "playful"...

[Sterling84]

That's presuming you could even recognize it as your work. I suspect the team may forward the concepts to a real firm. And the ones they forward, may not even be the five "finalists".

Do what you want. I'm not judging.

Even if you signed your rights away and the Colts systematically 'stole' your work and used it without compensating you (which they are legally allowed to do, with any of the submitted logos), there's still a certain novelty in having your logo seen week in and week out by millions of fans, both in person and on national television, and being able to say, "I did that. That's my work on coach's sweater." Yeah, the comp. is insulting, as is the process by which they are going about this, being a successful franchise in the planet's richest league, but it shouldn't always be about the money. Sometimes it needs to be about the accomplishment, regardless of the prize.

[BlueSky]

So on the one hand there's complaining that professional sports leagues never give an opportunity to anyone but professional design firms, then when one does, there's complaining that the compensation is inadequate to the point of it being a 'scam'. My question to you is, what do you suggest would be fair for such a contest? Because as it is now, it seems to me you want your cake and to eat it too. You want to be compensated like a pro but you're not a pro. Or are you? If so, this isn't an RFP, it's a fan contest for a secondary logo.

I'm not suggesting the process is fair, and clearly high-end businesses like professional sports teams miss out on some outstanding work because they generally refuse to consider work from diverse sources. But that's the way it is and if you were in their position, with millions of dollars (not to mention your reputation and career) riding on your decisions, would you do it differently? If so, how?

[Mac the Knife]

All designs submitted should incorporate a youthful hose that is "playful yet strong," and which should appeal to Colts fans.

That hose does NOT look playful and strong. Playful maybe, but definitely too pliable to be considered strong.

[Waffles]

So on the one hand there's complaining that professional sports leagues never give an opportunity to anyone but professional design firms, then when one does, there's complaining that the compensation is inadequate to the point of it being a 'scam'. My question to you is, what do you suggest would be fair for such a contest? Because as it is now, it seems to me you want your cake and to eat it too. You want to be compensated like a pro but you're not a pro. Or are you? If so, this isn't an RFP, it's a fan contest for a secondary logo.

I'm not suggesting the process is fair, and clearly high-end businesses like professional sports teams miss out on some outstanding work because they generally refuse to consider work from diverse sources. But that's the way it is and if you were in their position, with millions of dollars (not to mention your reputation and career) riding on your decisions, would you do it differently? If so, how?

I don't think there's any inherently fair about this "contest".

There is nothing fair about getting potentially thousands of logo submissions, some of which may be of professional quality, for free, then awarding a meager prize that represents a fraction of the price of a professionally designed logo, and a small fraction of a small percentage of the amount of money they'll end up making off the logo, to ONE of the people who submitted something.

What's fair is hiring someone to create a secondary logo, and it could be one of the talented non-professionals around here; it doesn't have to be a "professional design firm", maintaining a development process that respects the designer instead of a free-for-all, and COMPENSATING the designer for his work within industry standards.

Seeing your logo on Tony Dungy's polo shirt may make you feel all tingly on the inside, but tingly feelings don't pay the bills, and $1000 and two tickets doesn't :censored:ing pay the bills either. Graphic design is not just a fun hobby for some of us. It is how many people on these boards, myself included, make a living. And it's not just the compensation, but the lack of respect to graphic design, that is galling about this.

[fiasco!]

So on the one hand there's complaining that professional sports leagues never give an opportunity to anyone but professional design firms, then when one does, there's complaining that the compensation is inadequate to the point of it being a 'scam'. My question to you is, what do you suggest would be fair for such a contest? Because as it is now, it seems to me you want your cake and to eat it too. You want to be compensated like a pro but you're not a pro. Or are you? If so, this isn't an RFP, it's a fan contest for a secondary logo.

I'm not suggesting the process is fair, and clearly high-end businesses like professional sports teams miss out on some outstanding work because they generally refuse to consider work from diverse sources. But that's the way it is and if you were in their position, with millions of dollars (not to mention your reputation and career) riding on your decisions, would you do it differently? If so, how?

I don't think there's any inherently fair about this "contest".

There is nothing fair about getting potentially thousands of logo submissions, some of which may be of professional quality, for free, then awarding a meager prize that represents a fraction of the price of a professionally designed logo, and a small fraction of a small percentage of the amount of money they'll end up making off the logo, to ONE of the people who submitted something.

What's fair is hiring someone to create a secondary logo, and it could be one of the talented non-professionals around here; it doesn't have to be a "professional design firm", maintaining a development process that respects the designer instead of a free-for-all, and COMPENSATING the designer for his work within industry standards.

Seeing your logo on Tony Dungy's polo shirt may make you feel all tingly on the inside, but tingly feelings don't pay the bills, and $1000 and two tickets doesn't :censored:ing pay the bills either. Graphic design is not just a fun hobby for some of us. It is how many people on these boards, myself included, make a living. And it's not just the compensation, but the lack of respect to graphic design, that is galling about this.

You took the words out of my mouth.

http://www.no-spec.com/articles/design-contests/

Design Contests Are Dangerous For Your Business

By Robert Wurth, Creative Director, Freshly Squeezed Design

I recently wrote a blog entry on Freshly Squeezed Droplets about Powerball winners and the dangers that a sudden windfall of success can bring – whether it’s in the form of money from a lottery, or customers from the unwise practice of running “sale” ads. I’d like to continue the lottery theme with some thoughts about a growing problem within the industry of design.

Right now, there exists a trend in the business world whereby companies get it in their heads that it would be a good idea to run a contest for their design work. What they will do is announce that they need, say, a new logo. The intent is for designers to individually spend the time to develop designs and then submit them. The company then goes over the entries and selects a “winner.” Only the winner receives any compensation for the work.

On the surface, and without applying any deeper thought to it, this might seem like a great idea. Rather than trust one designer to come up with a solution, a company can solicit the creative talent of dozens, or even hundreds of talented creatives.

As with most things, however, the reality of the situation is rarely so simple.

Advertising is a business, and working with a designer is a business relationship. Because of that, there are far more factors at work than just the final product. People will switch doctors because they don’t get along. They will refuse to shop at a certain store (despite really liking the products) because they can’t stand the employees. Conversely, people will go out of their way to do business with someone they like, even if doing so might be inconvenient or even a little more expensive. It is no different with a company’s relationship with its designer.

It isn’t only important to find someone talented and who can get your projects done on time. The best relationships between companies and designers occur when they understand each other, when the designer “gets” what the company wants and needs to be successful.

This kind of relationship is almost never possible in a contest.

Design contests are obviously huge gambles for the designers. They have to commit to doing a significant amount of work, and they have to do so essentially blind. Without the benefit of meeting with those putting on the contest face-to-face and gaining some in-depth insight into the project, the designers have to guess at the tastes of those in charge and just hope they do something appealing.

The thing that contest originators don’t understand, however, is that the contest model is just as much a lottery for them, too. Without meeting with the contest entrants, and seeing their past work and experiencing their personalities, the contest originators put themselves in the middle of a very risky gamble. Based simply on a submitted image, it is impossible to determine whether or not the designer has the knowledge and background to guide the project to an efficient (or even successful) conclusion.

It really isn’t all that difficult for someone with some basic creative skills to put some shapes together into a pleasing arrangement. However, making sure that those shapes have the technical foundation to meet the needs of a company is a different matter, as is having the knowledge and skill to follow up the project with changes, modifications, or even application to future projects.

Once the winner of the contest is chosen, the company has committed itself into a relationship with the designer. Now, at least on some level, the company is going to have to deal with this person. It’s not unlike choosing a mail-order bride based just on a picture. It’s not going to matter how pretty she is in the picture if she’s a complete and total shrew in person, or if it’s discovered that she can’t speak your language and has no skills to speak of. I’d venture to guess that very few of the companies running contests have the knowledge of the design industry to take over a project should they discover that their winner’s only skill is in making pleasing pictures.

What it boils down to is a loss of control. By running a contest, the company gives up its power to choose a designer based on talent, skill, personality and all of the other factors that make it possible to conduct business with someone. This is no more a sound business model than playing the lottery in the hopes of making a profit.

[conesbeans]

Touche', Sterling.

Touche', United Waffles.

Touche', Fiasco.

Touche', Touche', Touche'!

[andrewharrington]

Graphic design pays my bills, too, but that doesn't mean I'm above doing work for free every now and then, no matter if the prize is a good feeling from doing an ad for the Red Cross or the recognition from having your work on a professional sports team's licensed apparel.

The point is, you don't even get this opportunity without a team going out of its way to hold a contest, which is as much a gamble for them as it is for anyone who enters. What if they don't get anything of professional quality? They're not going to hire one of the 'talented non-professionals' here, either, because they don't know about them. They don't have any exposure. This is an opportunity for exposure. Another team might say, "Wow, call up the guy who designed that logo. I want to talk to him about doing some work."

As for the rights to all the work, their legal team most likely drew it out as such in order to protect the Colts. We all know there are people who would jump at any opportunity to sue a multi-million dollar organization to make a quick buck. And you can't be certain of what they're going to do with all the submitted work, either, so lets not jump to conclusions about them sending a thousand entries off to a design firm.

[leggman01]

As for the rights to all the work, their legal team most likely drew it out as such in order to protect the Colts. We all know there are people who would jump at any opportunity to sue a multi-million dollar organization to make a quick buck. And you can't be certain of what they're going to do with all the submitted work, either, so lets not jump to conclusions about them sending a thousand entries off to a design firm.

i don't fault the colts for putting this legalese into the contract...it's their contest, they can do what they want with it

i don't fault anyone for entering this contest...it's their design, they can do what they want with it

i simply wanted clarification...i'd like to have the option to sell a logo that wasn't used, even if i gave it to a local high school in exchange for gear

[BlueSky]

So on the one hand there's complaining that professional sports leagues never give an opportunity to anyone but professional design firms, then when one does, there's complaining that the compensation is inadequate to the point of it being a 'scam'. My question to you is, what do you suggest would be fair for such a contest? Because as it is now, it seems to me you want your cake and to eat it too. You want to be compensated like a pro but you're not a pro. Or are you? If so, this isn't an RFP, it's a fan contest for a secondary logo.

I'm not suggesting the process is fair, and clearly high-end businesses like professional sports teams miss out on some outstanding work because they generally refuse to consider work from diverse sources. But that's the way it is and if you were in their position, with millions of dollars (not to mention your reputation and career) riding on your decisions, would you do it differently? If so, how?

I don't think there's any inherently fair about this "contest".

There is nothing fair about getting potentially thousands of logo submissions, some of which may be of professional quality, for free, then awarding a meager prize that represents a fraction of the price of a professionally designed logo, and a small fraction of a small percentage of the amount of money they'll end up making off the logo, to ONE of the people who submitted something.

What's fair is hiring someone to create a secondary logo, and it could be one of the talented non-professionals around here; it doesn't have to be a "professional design firm", maintaining a development process that respects the designer instead of a free-for-all, and COMPENSATING the designer for his work within industry standards.

Seeing your logo on Tony Dungy's polo shirt may make you feel all tingly on the inside, but tingly feelings don't pay the bills, and $1000 and two tickets doesn't :censored:ing pay the bills either. Graphic design is not just a fun hobby for some of us. It is how many people on these boards, myself included, make a living. And it's not just the compensation, but the lack of respect to graphic design, that is galling about this.

Lack of respect for graphic design? They created a contest and established rules. People may choose to participate or not participate based on their circumstances. Up and coming design student? Probably a good exercise. Established professional? Not so much. But it is what it is, a contest, and I'd agree with you completely if they were taking this route for a complete logo/uni redesign. I'd also agree that having logos professionally done and then letting fans choose one from a set of finalists would be a better alternative, the same way when I worked at Delta Air Lines I never understood why they kept flailing around with goofy airplane paint designs rather than choosing say five designs and letting the employees vote.

Now perhaps you're right, and this isn't something to help fans feel closer to the team but instead it's a plot by the cheap b***tards to get design work done basically for free. If so, justice would be for them to slog through a ton of unusable, amateurish crap. But to play devil's advocate, is what's really bothering you guys the fact that an amateur who has paid no dues at all may come up with something they can actually use, that can't be distinguished from professional work? Like an amateur photographer whose lucky shot wins a Pulitzer over all the photojournalists working their tails off, some risking their lives, all over the world? That would be understandable, but if that's it, just say it, I can respect that much more than all this indignance over one little contest.

And isn't there some irony in the Flying Elvis story recounted in another thread recently, where the logo created by a professional firm looks like it came from a fan contest?

[tajmccall]

Beautifully put Jared, Joel.

Basically if you don't depend on it for a meaning to put food in your mouth (or maybe even a families,) then you probably don't understand how insulting this is.

Its well veiled as an exciting opportunity, yes. But surely the 2007 Super Bowl Champions can do much more than this. Its a cheap way to use their leverage as a way to rob professionals of a paycheck.

...of course the NFL is getting exceedingly proficient at that.

[fiasco!]

Lack of respect for graphic design? They created a contest and established rules. People may choose to participate or not participate based on their circumstances. Up and coming design student? Probably a good exercise. Established professional? Not so much. But it is what it is, a contest, and I'd agree with you completely if they were taking this route for a complete logo/uni redesign. I'd also agree that having logos professionally done and then letting fans choose one from a set of finalists would be a better alternative, the same way when I worked at Delta Air Lines I never understood why they kept flailing around with goofy airplane paint designs rather than choosing say five designs and letting the employees vote.

Now perhaps you're right, and this isn't something to help fans feel closer to the team but instead it's a plot by the cheap b***tards to get design work done basically for free. If so, justice would be for them to slog through a ton of unusable, amateurish crap. But to play devil's advocate, is what's really bothering you guys the fact that an amateur who has paid no dues at all may come up with something they can actually use, that can't be distinguished from professional work? Like an amateur photographer whose lucky shot wins a Pulitzer over all the photojournalists working their tails off, some risking their lives, all over the world? That would be understandable, but if that's it, just say it, I can respect that much more than all this indignance over one little contest.

And isn't there some irony in the Flying Elvis story recounted in another thread recently, where the logo created by a professional firm looks like it came from a fan contest?

I'm happy that someone will/might get their design used due to this contest. That's just great. I see that many of us don't see this eye to eye, but to me, as a professional designer, it's pretty clear cut. I'm not doing glorified spec-art that will become the property of someone else just for the chance of "winning" $1000 and some tickets I'll never use. I know that many designers will enter this "contest", and that's their prerogative.

In my opinion, it hurts our profession as a whole, because it is spec work at it's very core. As pcgd once put it, would you go to your dentist and ask to get some work done, then go to another one to see if his work is better, then only pay the one you feel did a better job? No. Would any other profession allow that type of bastardization of their craft? No. For some reason, design isn't viewed as a viable profession to most people, rather a hobby, and allowing ourselves to continue to do spec work only solidifies that in potential clients' minds.

The draw of seeing my logo on some fat slob's mustard stained sweatshirt isn't as great as the draw of being appropriately compensated for the work that I would put many hours of research and fine tuning into. It's just not worth it to me. That's the way I feel about it.

[Waffles]

So on the one hand there's complaining that professional sports leagues never give an opportunity to anyone but professional design firms, then when one does, there's complaining that the compensation is inadequate to the point of it being a 'scam'. My question to you is, what do you suggest would be fair for such a contest? Because as it is now, it seems to me you want your cake and to eat it too. You want to be compensated like a pro but you're not a pro. Or are you? If so, this isn't an RFP, it's a fan contest for a secondary logo.

I'm not suggesting the process is fair, and clearly high-end businesses like professional sports teams miss out on some outstanding work because they generally refuse to consider work from diverse sources. But that's the way it is and if you were in their position, with millions of dollars (not to mention your reputation and career) riding on your decisions, would you do it differently? If so, how?

I don't think there's any inherently fair about this "contest".

There is nothing fair about getting potentially thousands of logo submissions, some of which may be of professional quality, for free, then awarding a meager prize that represents a fraction of the price of a professionally designed logo, and a small fraction of a small percentage of the amount of money they'll end up making off the logo, to ONE of the people who submitted something.

What's fair is hiring someone to create a secondary logo, and it could be one of the talented non-professionals around here; it doesn't have to be a "professional design firm", maintaining a development process that respects the designer instead of a free-for-all, and COMPENSATING the designer for his work within industry standards.

Seeing your logo on Tony Dungy's polo shirt may make you feel all tingly on the inside, but tingly feelings don't pay the bills, and $1000 and two tickets doesn't :censored:ing pay the bills either. Graphic design is not just a fun hobby for some of us. It is how many people on these boards, myself included, make a living. And it's not just the compensation, but the lack of respect to graphic design, that is galling about this.

Lack of respect for graphic design? They created a contest and established rules. People may choose to participate or not participate based on their circumstances. Up and coming design student? Probably a good exercise. Established professional? Not so much. But it is what it is, a contest, and I'd agree with you completely if they were taking this route for a complete logo/uni redesign. I'd also agree that having logos professionally done and then letting fans choose one from a set of finalists would be a better alternative, the same way when I worked at Delta Air Lines I never understood why they kept flailing around with goofy airplane paint designs rather than choosing say five designs and letting the employees vote.

Now perhaps you're right, and this isn't something to help fans feel closer to the team but instead it's a plot by the cheap b***tards to get design work done basically for free. If so, justice would be for them to slog through a ton of unusable, amateurish crap. But to play devil's advocate, is what's really bothering you guys the fact that an amateur who has paid no dues at all may come up with something they can actually use, that can't be distinguished from professional work? Like an amateur photographer whose lucky shot wins a Pulitzer over all the photojournalists working their tails off, some risking their lives, all over the world? That would be understandable, but if that's it, just say it, I can respect that much more than all this indignance over one little contest.

And isn't there some irony in the Flying Elvis story recounted in another thread recently, where the logo created by a professional firm looks like it came from a fan contest?

The amateurism doesn't bother me at all. Good design doesn't by any stretch of the imagination only come only from people with the words "graphic designer" next to their name, as this board consistently proves. There are bankers, burger flippers and middle school students that could design circles around me, and I have no problem accepting that. This isn't an elitist or ego thing. I fully expect that the winner of this contest will not be a graphic designer (and that their last name will be Irsay ) and that their work will be miles above what the Colts deserve for pulling this.

My indignation lies not in the professional status of the designers involved, but in the lack of professionalism on the part of the Colts. Designers, regardless of day job, should be compensated for their design and should work with the group they are designing in a design process. I don't care if you're Joe Bosack, or Joe Schmoe, $1000 and two tickets is nowhere near adequate compensation, ESPECIALLY for an NFL team (and for a team about to open a ridiculously expensive taxpayer-funded stadium) and a contest is not a design process that respects the designer, or for that matter, is the most conducive to developing a high-quality final product (unless there are rounds of post-contest revisions by the designer I am unaware of).

At the end, it's up to everyone to decide for themselves if this is right for them. If seeing your logo on TV and on t-shirts that the team is making loads of money off of is more important to you than being, at the very minimum, adequately compensated for your time, effort, and abilities and getting to work WITH the team to produce the perfect result...that's your decision.

Pro bono design work is an admirable use of one's time. But save it for people who really need it, not multimillionaire sports teams.

[BlueSky]

Basically if you don't depend on it for a meaning to put food in your mouth (or maybe even a families,) then you probably don't understand how insulting this is.

Right. No one else knows disrespect or having their work and dignity insulted? Like working for a major international airline for five years and having them hire two new college grads with zero experience in the same position but paying them more because that's what it took to be "competitive" in the job market?

You, Fiasco and United Waffles have some good points (even if thinking you have dibs on feeling dissed isn't one of them), and you're right, my perspective on the Colts' contest is far different than a professional graphic designers'. I don't think I'm right or you're wrong and I respect your views.

Just don't be a hypocrite and hire day laborers to tile your floor or build your deck for half of what a professional contractor would charge you, ok? See, it's not just NFL teams that want professional results on the cheap.