Colts looking for new horse

[fiasco!]

Basically if you don't depend on it for a meaning to put food in your mouth (or maybe even a families,) then you probably don't understand how insulting this is.

Right. No one else knows disrespect or having their work and dignity insulted? Like working for a major international airline for five years and having them hire two new college grads with zero experience in the same position but paying them more because that's what it took to be "competitive" in the job market?

You, Fiasco and United Waffles have some good points (even if thinking you have dibs on feeling dissed isn't one of them), and you're right, my perspective on the Colts' contest is far different than a professional graphic designers'. I don't think I'm right or you're wrong and I respect your views.

Just don't be a hypocrite and hire Pedro the day laborer to tile your floor or build your deck for half of what a professional contractor would charge you, ok? See, it's not just NFL teams that want professional results on the cheap.

What does that even mean? Another generalization? I do that by myself anyway.

[BlueSky]

Basically if you don't depend on it for a meaning to put food in your mouth (or maybe even a families,) then you probably don't understand how insulting this is.

Right. No one else knows disrespect or having their work and dignity insulted? Like working for a major international airline for five years and having them hire two new college grads with zero experience in the same position but paying them more because that's what it took to be "competitive" in the job market?

You, Fiasco and United Waffles have some good points (even if thinking you have dibs on feeling dissed isn't one of them), and you're right, my perspective on the Colts' contest is far different than a professional graphic designers'. I don't think I'm right or you're wrong and I respect your views.

Just don't be a hypocrite and hire Pedro the day laborer to tile your floor or build your deck for half of what a professional contractor would charge you, ok? See, it's not just NFL teams that want professional results on the cheap.

What does that even mean? Another generalization? I do that by myself anyway.

It means exactly what it says: you would be a hypocrite if you personally did what you're so upset about and accuse the Colts of doing, taking a cheap shortcut to get professional services.

[tBBP]

If it means anything to anyone, and helps put this whole thing in perspective...us Army does this kind of stuff all the time.

Real confidence-inspiring to know that the weapons we shoot and depend on to keep from getting shot were all built by the lowest bidder...

(Just a lil military humor, people--chuckle!)

[slapshot]

How did this denegrate into a discussion about immigration?

The point is, this is not a non-profit organization looking to score some pro bono work. This is a highly commercialized industry trying to score free work under the guise of a "contest".

Considering the use and potential merchandising and revenue prospects that a logo like this would generate, a designer could probably receive thousands of dollars for work like this.

Even spec work (which is technically what all the non-winning entries would be) should be heavily compensated.

This is not some silly little fan t-shirt or booster club logo. This is going to be a part of a professional major league sports franchise's licensing and trademark library, the designer of which should be compensated fairly and appoproriately.

[Waffles]

Basically if you don't depend on it for a meaning to put food in your mouth (or maybe even a families,) then you probably don't understand how insulting this is.

Right. No one else knows disrespect or having their work and dignity insulted? Like working for a major international airline for five years and having them hire two new college grads with zero experience in the same position but paying them more because that's what it took to be "competitive" in the job market?

You, Fiasco and United Waffles have some good points (even if thinking you have dibs on feeling dissed isn't one of them), and you're right, my perspective on the Colts' contest is far different than a professional graphic designers'. I don't think I'm right or you're wrong and I respect your views.

Just don't be a hypocrite and hire Pedro the day laborer to tile your floor or build your deck for half of what a professional contractor would charge you, ok? See, it's not just NFL teams that want professional results on the cheap.

What does that even mean? Another generalization? I do that by myself anyway.

It means exactly what it says: you would be a hypocrite if you personally did what you're so upset about and accuse the Colts of doing, taking a cheap shortcut to get professional services.

Gratuitous Lou Dobbsian rhetoric aside, the more analogous situation would be if I gathered a group of contractors together, told them they were taking part in a Tiling Contest, had them all tile my floor, and then declared one of them the "winner", and paid him (and only him) a fraction of what his work was worth and told him he could be proud that I would stare at his floor every time I took a dump.

[BlueSky]

Tell you what, you have your opinions and I have mine, which is you guys are blowing this WAY out of proportion. Is it 'gratuitous rhetoric' because it contradicts your position?

Does Lou Dobbs think the right to disagree is one of the great things about America? 'Cause I do.

Oh, and you never addressed the Flying Elvis question.

[Sterling84]

Tell you what, you have your opinions and I have mine, which is you guys are blowing this WAY out of proportion. Is it 'gratuitous rhetoric' because it contradicts your position?

Does Lou Dobbs think the right to disagree is one of the great things about America? 'Cause I do.

Oh, and you never addressed the Flying Elvis question.

I don?t recall the particulars of that ?Flying Elvis? logo article with complete accuracy. But I don?t really see how that is relevant. The Pats logo isn?t my favorite ever, but it seems to buy your thesis requires the assumption that the end result is bad (re amateurish) which I don?t think it is. Plus, while it was sort of an open casting call for spec-work?at least they WERE paid; something that the Colts entrants will not be. That firm was preposterously UNDERpaid when all was said and done. But they are the ones who agreed to that price and that arrangement.

Furthermore, I think the end price (what was it? $10K?) only further makes our argument for us. That is an unacceptable amount for a property than earns tens of millions per year?.and every time one of us does that; makes that compromise? it makes the next potential client look that much harder to get over on the next potential designer. The Patriots then are just as culpable as the current Colts.

Several years ago, some buddies and I tried to start a web firm. We weren?t the greatest, but we were doing dynamic data and administrative back ends?.stuff that could make a real impact for small businesses. We found ourselves consistently underbidding projects to try and ?get noticed??.?get our foot in the door? All that ends up happening is you ?get noticed? as the dime store alternative. We?d screwed ourselves (unsustainable profits) and lowered perception of our competitors and the local industry in the process. It just seems like there are some jobs that people assume are not ?real? jobs or distinguishable from hobbies.

Ever since I was 12 years old, people have been asking me to draw portraits of their children??.from existing photos no less. Don?t even get me started on this topic?.I mean, you already HAVE the photograph! If you want them to sit for a live portrait that is one thing?.but I digress. When I was finished they always ask?..?What do you want for this?? To which I?d reply in thinly veiled contempt?.?whatever you think is reasonable?. $25 later I?m out back swearing to never EVER do that again. Now, yes. Part of that is my fault. Which I eventually realized. I started just throwing out $1000 to every inquiry. That scares people away pretty quick. But if the drawing took me 8 hours?..I?d be better off mowing lawns for that kinda scratch. Right?

I don?t begrudge anyone who wants to go ahead and enter this. But you have to decide if you are Walmart or Bloomingdales. Whichever you choose, get comfortable with it. Walmart customers only refer other Walmart customers. That comes from personal experience.

[andrewharrington]

As for the rights to all the work, their legal team most likely drew it out as such in order to protect the Colts. We all know there are people who would jump at any opportunity to sue a multi-million dollar organization to make a quick buck. And you can't be certain of what they're going to do with all the submitted work, either, so lets not jump to conclusions about them sending a thousand entries off to a design firm.

i don't fault the colts for putting this legalese into the contract...it's their contest, they can do what they want with it

i don't fault anyone for entering this contest...it's their design, they can do what they want with it

i simply wanted clarification...i'd like to have the option to sell a logo that wasn't used, even if i gave it to a local high school in exchange for gear

No doubt. I wasn't calling you out. That's actually the only thing that stops me from hitting the green light on this one is that I don't get to keep the rights to my work. Maybe you could ask them (if you don't win) if you can have the rights back?

[STL FANATIC]

My only complaint about the contest is that every design becomes their property and not just the winning design.

That's huge and would stop me from submitting something I put tons of work into.

I don't know if that's a qualification of "spec" or not. But as someone slowly entering the profession (I'll have a degree in a couple of years), I'm not opposed to the idea of contests or anything of the such.

It may be bad for the profession, but such is the nature of capitalism, God bless it.

We go into this field because we believe our work is good enough to demand enough money to make a living on. I still believe that's the case and don't feel threatened by the occassional contest. If there are alternatives for businesses to find equal quality work for cheaper, good for them, they should.

I believe the best work will come from high quality, well-trained, designers most of the time. As such, I don't think the profession is in any sort of jeopardy. But there's good work that can also be had for cheap, and in the right situations that makes sense, so good on businesses for finding it.

I would find this fully worth my time if I knew I could keep the rights to a losing effort. I can't, so I won't enter. And everyone has that same option.

I wanna add that I'm young, dumb, and inexperienced. Maybe my views will begin to shift, for better or worse, towards some of the veterans of the field as time goes on.

[rmered]

Tell you what, you have your opinions and I have mine, which is you guys are blowing this WAY out of proportion. Is it 'gratuitous rhetoric' because it contradicts your position?

Does Lou Dobbs think the right to disagree is one of the great things about America? 'Cause I do.

Oh, and you never addressed the Flying Elvis question.

I don?t recall the particulars of that ?Flying Elvis? logo article with complete accuracy. But I don?t really see how that is relevant. The Pats logo isn?t my favorite ever, but it seems to buy your thesis requires the assumption that the end result is bad (re amateurish) which I don?t think it is. Plus, while it was sort of an open casting call for spec-work?at least they WERE paid; something that the Colts entrants will not be. That firm was preposterously UNDERpaid when all was said and done. But they are the ones who agreed to that price and that arrangement.

Furthermore, I think the end price (what was it? $10K?) only further makes our argument for us. That is an unacceptable amount for a property than earns tens of millions per year?.and every time one of us does that; makes that compromise? it makes the next potential client look that much harder to get over on the next potential designer. The Patriots then are just as culpable as the current Colts.

Several years ago, some buddies and I tried to start a web firm. We weren?t the greatest, but we were doing dynamic data and administrative back ends?.stuff that could make a real impact for small businesses. We found ourselves consistently underbidding projects to try and ?get noticed??.?get our foot in the door? All that ends up happening is you ?get noticed? as the dime store alternative. We?d screwed ourselves (unsustainable profits) and lowered perception of our competitors and the local industry in the process. It just seems like there are some jobs that people assume are not ?real? jobs or distinguishable from hobbies.

Ever since I was 12 years old, people have been asking me to draw portraits of their children??.from existing photos no less. Don?t even get me started on this topic?.I mean, you already HAVE the photograph! If you want them to sit for a live portrait that is one thing?.but I digress. When I was finished they always ask?..?What do you want for this?? To which I?d reply in thinly veiled contempt?.?whatever you think is reasonable?. $25 later I?m out back swearing to never EVER do that again. Now, yes. Part of that is my fault. Which I eventually realized. I started just throwing out $1000 to every inquiry. That scares people away pretty quick. But if the drawing took me 8 hours?..I?d be better off mowing lawns for that kinda scratch. Right?

I don?t begrudge anyone who wants to go ahead and enter this. But you have to decide if you are Walmart or Bloomingdales. Whichever you choose, get comfortable with it. Walmart customers only refer other Walmart customers. That comes from personal experience.

Nothing to add, it just bears repeating.

If you want to do it, have a go.

But you will have as much of a reputation for being the guy who did the Colts logo for season tickets as you will for being the guy who did the Colts logo at all.

[flynnagain]

Tell you what, you have your opinions and I have mine, which is you guys are blowing this WAY out of proportion. Is it 'gratuitous rhetoric' because it contradicts your position?

Does Lou Dobbs think the right to disagree is one of the great things about America? 'Cause I do.

Oh, and you never addressed the Flying Elvis question.

I don?t recall the particulars of that ?Flying Elvis? logo article with complete accuracy. But I don?t really see how that is relevant. The Pats logo isn?t my favorite ever, but it seems to buy your thesis requires the assumption that the end result is bad (re amateurish) which I don?t think it is. Plus, while it was sort of an open casting call for spec-work?at least they WERE paid; something that the Colts entrants will not be. That firm was preposterously UNDERpaid when all was said and done. But they are the ones who agreed to that price and that arrangement.

Furthermore, I think the end price (what was it? $10K?) only further makes our argument for us. That is an unacceptable amount for a property than earns tens of millions per year?.and every time one of us does that; makes that compromise? it makes the next potential client look that much harder to get over on the next potential designer. The Patriots then are just as culpable as the current Colts.

Several years ago, some buddies and I tried to start a web firm. We weren?t the greatest, but we were doing dynamic data and administrative back ends?.stuff that could make a real impact for small businesses. We found ourselves consistently underbidding projects to try and ?get noticed??.?get our foot in the door? All that ends up happening is you ?get noticed? as the dime store alternative. We?d screwed ourselves (unsustainable profits) and lowered perception of our competitors and the local industry in the process. It just seems like there are some jobs that people assume are not ?real? jobs or distinguishable from hobbies.

Ever since I was 12 years old, people have been asking me to draw portraits of their children??.from existing photos no less. Don?t even get me started on this topic?.I mean, you already HAVE the photograph! If you want them to sit for a live portrait that is one thing?.but I digress. When I was finished they always ask?..?What do you want for this?? To which I?d reply in thinly veiled contempt?.?whatever you think is reasonable?. $25 later I?m out back swearing to never EVER do that again. Now, yes. Part of that is my fault. Which I eventually realized. I started just throwing out $1000 to every inquiry. That scares people away pretty quick. But if the drawing took me 8 hours?..I?d be better off mowing lawns for that kinda scratch. Right?

I don?t begrudge anyone who wants to go ahead and enter this. But you have to decide if you are Walmart or Bloomingdales. Whichever you choose, get comfortable with it. Walmart customers only refer other Walmart customers. That comes from personal experience.

Nothing to add, it just bears repeating.

If you want to do it, have a go.

But you will have as much of a reputation for being the guy who did the Colts logo for season tickets as you will for being the guy who did the Colts logo at all.

once again some bang-on wisdom from down-under..... for me I would think it would be a lot cooler to do an AFL logo...

[kmw_29]

As a professional designer, I do agree with the many people who feel that the winner of this contest will be grossly under-compensated, and that it is made worse by the fact that the contest is hosted by a team and league who make more money in one hour than any of us will in a lifetime. However, how many professionals or amateurs on these message boards have ever designed a logo for a top-level professional sports team? For that matter, how many have even had an opportunity given to them to attempt to design a logo for a top-level sports team.

Being able to tell people that I designed a logo for the Colts, even if it meant I was screwed financially for the deal would be pretty darn cool. Anyone who thinks otherwise is kidding themselves. And, if you were to win, do you think you will be turned down for a job because you won this contest for a paltry $1000 and season tickets? Or, do you think it might actually impress someone that you were able to design a logo that is featured in high production? Professionally, I can design logos for food markets, blood glucose monitors, the Red Cross, small insurance agencies any day of the week, but it is extremely rare to get an opportunity to design something on as grand of a scale as this project. Now, maybe everyone else here is getting their doors knocked down to design logos for the NFL, MLB, NHL, and NBA, but I haven't received that call yet.

Unfortunately, this is the power and selfishness of the NFL. They can afford to offer an insulting amount of money for a logo. And, while I don't like the joke that they are calling a monetary prize, I would hate it even more to see some schmuck with a bad design win and take the money. Though, whenever there are contests put up to vote, the wrong logo usually wins anyways.

[shiznit1083]

Tell you what, you have your opinions and I have mine, which is you guys are blowing this WAY out of proportion. Is it 'gratuitous rhetoric' because it contradicts your position?

Does Lou Dobbs think the right to disagree is one of the great things about America? 'Cause I do.

Oh, and you never addressed the Flying Elvis question.

I don?t recall the particulars of that ?Flying Elvis? logo article with complete accuracy. But I don?t really see how that is relevant. The Pats logo isn?t my favorite ever, but it seems to buy your thesis requires the assumption that the end result is bad (re amateurish) which I don?t think it is. Plus, while it was sort of an open casting call for spec-work?at least they WERE paid; something that the Colts entrants will not be. That firm was preposterously UNDERpaid when all was said and done. But they are the ones who agreed to that price and that arrangement.

Furthermore, I think the end price (what was it? $10K?) only further makes our argument for us. That is an unacceptable amount for a property than earns tens of millions per year?.and every time one of us does that; makes that compromise? it makes the next potential client look that much harder to get over on the next potential designer. The Patriots then are just as culpable as the current Colts.

Several years ago, some buddies and I tried to start a web firm. We weren?t the greatest, but we were doing dynamic data and administrative back ends?.stuff that could make a real impact for small businesses. We found ourselves consistently underbidding projects to try and ?get noticed??.?get our foot in the door? All that ends up happening is you ?get noticed? as the dime store alternative. We?d screwed ourselves (unsustainable profits) and lowered perception of our competitors and the local industry in the process. It just seems like there are some jobs that people assume are not ?real? jobs or distinguishable from hobbies.

Ever since I was 12 years old, people have been asking me to draw portraits of their children??.from existing photos no less. Don?t even get me started on this topic?.I mean, you already HAVE the photograph! If you want them to sit for a live portrait that is one thing?.but I digress. When I was finished they always ask?..?What do you want for this?? To which I?d reply in thinly veiled contempt?.?whatever you think is reasonable?. $25 later I?m out back swearing to never EVER do that again. Now, yes. Part of that is my fault. Which I eventually realized. I started just throwing out $1000 to every inquiry. That scares people away pretty quick. But if the drawing took me 8 hours?..I?d be better off mowing lawns for that kinda scratch. Right?

I don?t begrudge anyone who wants to go ahead and enter this. But you have to decide if you are Walmart or Bloomingdales. Whichever you choose, get comfortable with it. Walmart customers only refer other Walmart customers. That comes from personal experience.

Nothing to add, it just bears repeating.

If you want to do it, have a go.

But you will have as much of a reputation for being the guy who did the Colts logo for season tickets as you will for being the guy who did the Colts logo at all.

once again some bang-on wisdom from down-under..... for me I would think it would be a lot cooler to do an AFL logo...

This is bigger than you, though. It's about you screwing the professionals, who do this for a living, out of wages they need and deserve.

A few years ago I willingly did the Canton Legends logo for peanuts. I'm not blaming the person that hired me to do the work or the team. The responsibility falls on my shoulders ultimately. Not only did I not get the exposure that I wanted, but I screwed over the people who need this for their livelihood and encouraged the behavior of underpaying for professional work. Now? I am a graphic designer for a living and I regret having done a professional logo for practically nothing. Moral of the story: don't be a self-serving douche.

[STL FANATIC]

This is bigger than you, though. It's about you screwing the professionals, who do this for a living, out of wages they need and deserve.

A few years ago I willingly did the Canton Legends logo for peanuts. I'm not blaming the person that hired me to do the work or the team. The responsibility falls on my shoulders ultimately. Not only did I not get the exposure that I wanted, but I screwed over the people who need this for their livelihood and encouraged the behavior of underpaying for professional work. Now? I am a graphic designer for a living and I regret having done a professional logo for practically nothing. Moral of the story: don't be a self-serving douche.

If high quality work is available for wages that one can't support themselves on, then perhaps its not an industry worthy of careers.

I don't for one second believe that's the case. Way more often than not, you get what you paid for.

The nature of capitalism is to get the most bang for your buck. If you can do so without paying someone a great amount, I'm supposed to mad that you did? If someone can produce work as good as mine and is willing to do the work for cheaper I'm supposed to be mad at them?

No, I think that's crazy.

I want to earn my money, not get it because the profession b****es at those who don't uphold a high price tag.

I have plenty of confidence that I can earn a living off of graphic design because my work will more often than not be better than those who are willing to do the work for cheaper.

If a business goes cheaper and gets bad work, then by all means, tee off on them for not realizing the importance of good design.

But I won't get upset if they find high quality work for cheap, and I won't be upset at the designer.

Let your work speak for itself.

[tajmccall]

Being able to tell people that I designed a logo for the Colts, even if it meant I was screwed financially for the deal would be pretty darn cool.

Super cool idea, and I get that you can draw parallels to this in many different arenas, as our friend with the Saints avatar has pointed out. However all these points just underline to me the same idea: The Colts are taking a great, and underutilized idea and ruining it by paltry compensation.

Ultimately, there is no law saying you must use a designer, and you must pay him this. Its ethics. Skyaa(?) you were reinforcing it and using what I assume to be your craft...yet you still disagree?

I think Jared's (Waffles) analogy is much closer to the truth of what this is.

I get it, we look like elitist snobs (I'm not even a "professional," I make silly t-shirts on the side and work a 9-5 in the finance industry,) because it looks like we're crying that someone is taking a job off the table. But this is simply not so. Put as many jobs out there with equal opportunity for all designers...but if you can afford to pay the going rate, do it. Don't insult our intelligence by making it some half-assed contest, or use your leverage as the supreme brand in America to be able to grossly low-ball a young designer who may or may not be a colts fan. OK, so lets say they are decent season tickets. You could probably sell them for $1,000. Thats it. A good logo can take hours. I assume you'll have to spend at least 7-10 hours to win unless you're a freak like a few people are on here that can just bust them out...but even they go back and tinker- which takes me longer. The revisions kill you.

I'm rambling. I just think its a shame such a beautiful opportunity is spoiled once you take off the veil of excitement that comes with having Peyton Manning POSSIBLY wearing your logo on those AWFUL hats he wears on the sidelines.

...seriously, does he have a contract that he must wear the ugliest hat available, or is his taste just that bad? Nevermind, I think I just found the answer. Nice mustache.

[kmw_29]

This is bigger than you, though. It's about you screwing the professionals, who do this for a living, out of wages they need and deserve.

A few years ago I willingly did the Canton Legends logo for peanuts. I'm not blaming the person that hired me to do the work or the team. The responsibility falls on my shoulders ultimately. Not only did I not get the exposure that I wanted, but I screwed over the people who need this for their livelihood and encouraged the behavior of underpaying for professional work. Now? I am a graphic designer for a living and I regret having done a professional logo for practically nothing. Moral of the story: don't be a self-serving douche.

It's a bit of a catch-22 in a sense... If you abstain from participating, there will always be someone who does enter the contest, regardless. And, until you can ensure that a contest such as this either gets zero entries, or that all of the entries are so horrible that no one ever attempts this strategy again, I don't see how staying out of the contest will change things. That does not excuse the Colts from what they're doing. As has been said, it is a personal decision for every individual. The professional side of me is angered by the lack of compensation. The competitive side of me doesn't want some talentless hack winning, because someone WILL win this contest. I don't think the Colts can/will just cancel the contest if all of us "pros" boycott. Unfortunately, this is a situation in which you cannot completely win. But, as I stated before, I may never get another chance to design a logo for the NFL. I just all of those who have stated that it is a designer's personal choice, will support anyone who does enter and become a finalist (and might even win).

[DG_ThenNowForever]

If high quality work is available for wages that one can't support themselves on, then perhaps its not an industry worthy of careers.

I might be out of place here, but I agree whole-heartedly with what's above. If you're an independent contractor, it's nice to have an expectation of what your work is worth, but ultimately, it's only as valuable as what someone is willing to pay. There are ways to make your worth seemingly more valuable -- like have experience having designed an NFL logo -- but in the end, your professional value is at the mercy of the people paying you. That's the industry you've decided to pursue, and those are the ramifications.

I think we'd all like to institute strict price controls on our respective industries. We'd all like to be able to set our wages and have them free from outside influence. However, that simply isn't reasonable. Just like the gourmet pizza maker can be undercut by a Pizza Hut moving into his neighborhood, so too can a graphic designer be undercut by an NFL make-the-logo contest. It might not be the best thing for you personally as a designer, but I think you have to remove you yourself from the situation.

The Indianapolis Colts want a logo and they thought this would be the cheapest, most efficient way to get one. They could have sent out an RFP, but they decided to not go that route. Is the compensation insulting or disgusting? Only as much as someone would turn it down. And, based on the thousands of entries they're sure to receive (many from board members here, no doubt), the compensation might really be not so bad after all. And that all brings it back to the point STL makes above: if the wages getting paid to graphic designers are unsustainable, then perhaps it's not the best career choice. Ask any number of thousands of musicians, writers, or painters that work at Kinkos or Starbucks during the day so they can afford rent. We don't all get to do what we love and make a living at it.

[Sterling84]

This is bigger than you, though. It's about you screwing the professionals, who do this for a living, out of wages they need and deserve.

A few years ago I willingly did the Canton Legends logo for peanuts. I'm not blaming the person that hired me to do the work or the team. The responsibility falls on my shoulders ultimately. Not only did I not get the exposure that I wanted, but I screwed over the people who need this for their livelihood and encouraged the behavior of underpaying for professional work. Now? I am a graphic designer for a living and I regret having done a professional logo for practically nothing. Moral of the story: don't be a self-serving douche.

If high quality work is available for wages that one can't support themselves on, then perhaps its not an industry worthy of careers.

I don't for one second believe that's the case. Way more often than not, you get what you paid for.

The nature of capitalism is to get the most bang for your buck. If you can do so without paying someone a great amount, I'm supposed to mad that you did? If someone can produce work as good as mine and is willing to do the work for cheaper I'm supposed to be mad at them?

No, I think that's crazy.

I want to earn my money, not get it because the profession b****es at those who don't uphold a high price tag.

I have plenty of confidence that I can earn a living off of graphic design because my work will more often than not be better than those who are willing to do the work for cheaper.

If a business goes cheaper and gets bad work, then by all means, tee off on them for not realizing the importance of good design.

But I won't get upset if they find high quality work for cheap, and I won't be upset at the designer.

Let your work speak for itself.

I?m picking up what you are putting down STL. Sometimes when I?m about to make an argument, I like to think through the counter-argument first.

And one of the things that came to mind in this thread was the idea that capitalism is ?supposed? to function like this. Competition brings the best products to the consumer at the best prices. It?s why a company like Vizio can grab a foothold in the HDTV market despite making nowhere near the product that Sony or Panasonic makes.

So, are we on the wrong side of this?

I don?t think we are. I think there are some key differences. First among them is that this is not a product being lowered to the level of everyday affordability to Joe Customer. This is also not a commodity decreasing in price over time due to technological advances or R&D expenditures. In other words, when you enter a contest like this?..you aren?t building a better mousetrap?.No, this isn?t a case in where new ideas are running circles around an outmoded, plodding infrastructure. I think those type of examples are more in keeping with what is at the heart of the capitalistic argument.

You asked,

?If someone can produce work as good as mine and is willing to do the work for cheaper I'm supposed to be mad at them??

The answer is yes AND no. If they buckled down like the Henry Ford of logos and found a way to beat you at your own game by working faster, cheaper, better or more efficiently or what have you?.then ?No?. Hats off to that person.

I don?t agree that is what we?re talking about. The industry is still very intimate; very custom; hands-on, face to face and time consuming.

So what?s to be done then? Surely despite our protests some thousands of people will enter this. 95% of the entries will be in crayon, include photographs, or include expressly forbidden player images or the Horseshoe etc. That?s awfully tempting odds to any of us would-be designers out there. I could only suggest some sort of unofficial unionization?.an unspoken rule to avoid these things at all costs. One could argue price fixing, but it?s really the only way labor ever levels the playing field. It?s never going to work, but if everyone with ability refrained from the temptation, perhaps the message would be received. I doubt it. I guess I?m saying there isn?t a grand solution. One can only make the choice that works for them.

The Colts could?ve fixed this by merely awarding a prize of $50 thousand dollars. Still under market value by quite a bit, but a gesture of understanding as to what the business and creativity entails.

[BlueSky]

Whichever side you're on, for me it's truly a pleasure to read a legitimate and civilized discourse on the issue without the usual internet consequence of rapid descent into personal attacks and name-calling. That happens often on other boards I read and it's tiresome to say the least. So thanks to all for the points you've made. As I said previously, I respect the perspective held by the professional designers, but though my own view has been broadened by what I've read here, it still seems to me in the end that this is not a contest meant to draw professional entries, it's more for Joe Fan. Put another way, they're not looking for a finished product but for rough ideas that will likely be polished into final form by a professional firm as a previous poster speculated. And if Joe Fan wins, he'll be thrilled with the prizes, so what do they care?

Some of you may find irony in this story considering the views I've expressed in this thread. I worked for Delta Air Lines for several years before being snagged in the last big layoff back in 2004. It was my first layoff in nearly 20 years in the airline industry so I can't complain. Anyway, Delta developed an in-house pricing tool, the function of which is too complex to explain briefly, but they had an employee contest for a name and logo and my entry won. The new application was (and still is) known as the O & D Market Network Integrator, or OMNI. I don't think I even have a copy of the logo any more, but while it wasn't anything special, it was cool enough in that it graphically represented the tool's function.

So the prize was two positive-space employee passes, which wasn't much since I could fly space-available anyway, but hey, it was something. Until they tried to give me the passes, at which point the Travel Department informed my boss that 'policy' prohibited the awarding of passes as prizes in employee contests. So my 'prize' was nada, unless you count my boss's apology. You'd think somebody would have known that or checked on it first.

Karma smiled on me though. Some time later, they had a random drawing for tickets to a weekday afternoon Braves game. They also gave the winner paid time off to go to the game, and I won. Beautiful afternoon, great game, took my camera and found the seats were pretty good. Always looked at that as my 'prize' for the contest.

[rtrich11]

it still seems to me in the end that this is not a contest meant to draw professional entries, it's more for Joe Fan. Put another way, they're not looking for a finished product but for rough ideas that will likely be polished into final form by a professional firm as a previous poster speculated. And if Joe Fan wins, he'll be thrilled with the prizes, so what do they care?

This goes with an early post by Sterling (Dave). He said it was just a focus group charade. You get fans to decide for you what they want to see. You take the winner and clean it up with a pro. Start selling. What a time and money saver. Much smaller chance of introducing a logo that people reject. We've all seen short-run logos that the fans hated before they were replaced. It costs tons to replace signs and what-not at a stadium or at your team office.