Huge Disappointment In NCAA Selection Process

[NJTank]

Three Divisions is enough 1-A and 1-AA is confusing enough in football.

[STL FANATIC]

Some of these small conferences should be guranteed AT LEAST ONE bid. They can choose themselves how that bid goes: regular season, or tournament. Utah St. is also 39 in the RPI and Richmond is 43.

[NJTank]

That RPI number is big I think RPI shoudl be a major factor in detrmining at large teams.

[STL FANATIC]

That RPI number is big I think RPI shoudl be a major factor in detrmining at large teams.

I don't. The system seems flawed to me.

The Illini's strength of schedule is 63, while Wisconsin's if 37. They are in the same conference though, so they have basically the same schedule then. I will admit that we played Michigan St. only once overall, and Wisconsin played them twice during the regular season and once in the tournament. However, if you look at the preseason schedule, the Illini clearly played the harder of the two. It makes no sense to me how Wisconsin's is supposed to be that much harder.

[habsfannova]

This is why I hate US college sports.

[rant on]

NOT because of the selection process. But because of the multitude of people that come out and complain and whine and bitch about "Random Southeast Idaho Christian State College" not getting into the tournament. Everybody whines and whines about how everybody gets screwed over, how the NCAA is unfair, how everything should be changed, how this is the greatest injustice since the New Coke, how DARE the NCAA do that?

Then they pull wierd, strange, downright odd mathmatical equations and rankings, bizarre matchups (Because RSICSC beat USF, and USF beat MU, and becase MU beat so-and-so, this should happen)

Do you people realize that there is NO exact way ANY human or GROUPS of humans can pick every school that deserves to go? And yet, everybody whines when a computer does it for them! C'est impossible! Somebody's gonna get screwed EVERY YEAR! It's inevitable! Build a bridge and get over it!

[rant off]

BS, I'm not criticizing you, Just people in general. Yours was a decent question. Did they deserve to? Probably. I'm just saying....

[Sec19Row53]

That RPI number is big I think RPI shoudl be a major factor in detrmining at large teams.

I don't. The system seems flawed to me.

The Illini's strength of schedule is 63, while Wisconsin's if 37. They are in the same conference though, so they have basically the same schedule then. I will admit that we played Michigan St. only once overall, and Wisconsin played them twice during the regular season and once in the tournament. However, if you look at the preseason schedule, the Illini clearly played the harder of the two. It makes no sense to me how Wisconsin's is supposed to be that much harder.

According to collegerankings.com, here's a comparison of the two schedules:

Illinois

Date Site Score RPI Opponent

11/22/03 Home W 94-66 307 Western Ill

11/26/03 Home W 93-61 220 Mercer

11/29/03 Away W 75-60 88 Temple

12/2/03 Neut L 81-88 13 North Carolina

12/6/03 Neut W 84-61 102 Arkansas

12/9/03 Neut L 51-70 22 Providence

12/11/03 Home W 85-43 319 MD Eastrn Shore

12/13/03 Home W 74-64 28 Memphis

12/23/03 Neut W 71-70 55 Missouri

12/30/03 Neut W 75-60 70 Illinois Chi

1/3/04 Home W 80-73 188 Illinois St

Average Non-Conf 128

1/7/04 Home W 85-63 120 Ohio St

1/10/04 Home L 54-58 81 Purdue

1/14/04 Away L 60-70 98 Northwestern

1/17/04 Home W 88-82 72 Iowa

1/21/04 Home W 80-37 181 Penn St

1/24/04 Away L 56-76 16 Wisconsin

1/31/04 Home W 67-52 65 Michigan

2/3/04 Away W 51-49 90 Indiana

2/8/04 Away W 79-69 146 Minnesota

2/10/04 Home W 75-51 41 Michigan St

2/18/04 Home W 65-57 16 Wisconsin

2/21/04 Away W 66-58 181 Penn St

2/25/04 Away W 78-59 72 Iowa

2/28/04 Home W 66-56 98 Northwestern

3/3/04 Away W 81-79 81 Purdue

3/7/04 Away W 64-63 120 Ohio St

3/12/04 Neut W 71-59 90 Indiana

3/13/04 Neut W 74-60 65 Michigan

3/14/04 Neut L 53-70 16 Wisconsin

Ave Conf Reg Season 92

Season Ave 102

Wisconsin

Date Site Score RPI Opponent

11/21/03 Away W 64-53 124 Pennsylvania

11/25/03 Home W 81-47 296 Eastern Ill

11/29/03 Home W 55-43 74 Rutgers

12/2/03 Away L 67-73 14 Maryland

12/6/03 Home W 68-42 104 Detroit

12/10/03 Home W 73-57 135 Wisc Green Bay

12/13/03 Home W 89-71 86 Wisc Milwaukee

12/20/03 Home W 63-59 91 Marquette

12/27/03 Neut W 71-48 208 Ohio

12/30/03 Away L 56-71 34 Alabama

1/3/04 Home W 75-49 116 Coll Of Charltn

Average Non-Conf 117

1/6/04 Home W 79-45 90 Indiana

1/10/04 Home W 77-64 41 Michigan St

1/14/04 Away L 51-53 81 Purdue

1/21/04 Home W 74-63 65 Michigan

1/24/04 Home W 76-56 19 Illinois

1/28/04 Away W 69-57 120 Ohio St

2/4/04 Home W 80-66 146 Minnesota

2/7/04 Away L 51-69 98 Northwestern

2/11/04 Away W 54-52 72 Iowa

2/14/04 Home W 78-48 120 Ohio St

2/18/04 Away L 57-65 19 Illinois

2/22/04 Away L 59-71 65 Michigan

2/25/04 Home W 68-45 181 Penn St

2/29/04 Home W 82-46 81 Purdue

3/2/04 Away W 68-64 41 Michigan St

3/6/04 Away W 70-52 90 Indiana

3/12/04 Neut W 66-52 146 Minnesota

3/13/04 Neut W 68-66 41 Michigan St

3/14/04 Neut W 70-53 19 Illinois

Ave Conf Reg Season 83

Season Ave 94

So, Wisconsin DID play a tougher schedule, both in conference and out.

[STL FANATIC]

So, Wisconsin DID play a tougher schedule, both in conference and out.

Yeah, according to this RPI crap, but just compare them...the Illini's was harder. No matter what, Wisconsin's wasn't THAT much harder as RPI shows.

[jkrdevil]

This is why I hate US college sports.

[rant on]

NOT because of the selection process. But because of the multitude of people that come out and complain and whine and bitch about "Random Southeast Idaho Christian State College" not getting into the tournament. Everybody whines and whines about how everybody gets screwed over, how the NCAA is unfair, how everything should be changed, how this is the greatest injustice since the New Coke, how DARE the NCAA do that?

Then they pull wierd, strange, downright odd mathmatical equations and rankings, bizarre matchups (Because RSICSC beat USF, and USF beat MU, and becase MU beat so-and-so, this should happen)

Do you people realize that there is NO exact way ANY human or GROUPS of humans can pick every school that deserves to go? And yet, everybody whines when a computer does it for them! C'est impossible! Somebody's gonna get screwed EVERY YEAR! It's inevitable! Build a bridge and get over it!

[rant off]

BS, I'm not criticizing you, Just people in general. Yours was a decent question. Did they deserve to? Probably. I'm just saying....

I agree

[See Red]

Why is Utah State not getting in such a big deal? Let's say you were to put Utah State in as opposed to Air Force. Either way they get killed in the 1st round by North Carolina. It's not like they have ANY prayer of winning the tournament so who cares? It's not like their seasons over... they get to play in the NIT anyway. And they have a far better chance of winning the NIT than the NCAA Tournament anyway. The fine people at Utah State should rejoice that they were saved from a first round embarassment.

[the_cynic]

This is why I hate US college sports.

[rant on]

NOT because of the selection process.  But because of the multitude of people that come out and complain and whine and bitch about "Random Southeast Idaho Christian State College" not getting into the tournament.  Everybody whines and whines about how everybody gets screwed over, how the NCAA is unfair, how everything should be changed, how this is the greatest injustice since the New Coke, how DARE the NCAA do that?

Then they pull wierd, strange, downright odd mathmatical equations and rankings, bizarre matchups (Because RSICSC beat USF, and USF beat MU, and becase MU beat so-and-so,  this should happen)

Do you people realize that there is NO exact way ANY human or GROUPS of humans can pick every school that deserves to go?  And yet, everybody whines when a computer does it for them!  C'est impossible!  Somebody's gonna get screwed EVERY YEAR!  It's inevitable!  Build a bridge and get over it!

[rant off]

BS, I'm not criticizing you, Just people in general. Yours was a decent question.  Did they deserve to?  Probably.  I'm just saying....

That's not the case here dude! I heard this is the first time a nationally ranked team didn't make the tournament. Utah State is a small dinky school. They deserved to be in that tournament with the national ranking of #22 and a record of 25-3. How can you argue that they don't deserve it? Give me a break!

Why is Utah State not getting in such a big deal?  Let's say you were to put Utah State in as opposed to Air Force.  Either way they get killed in the 1st round by North Carolina.  It's not like they have ANY prayer of winning the tournament so who cares?  It's not like their seasons over... they get to play in the NIT anyway.  And they have a far better chance of winning the NIT than the NCAA Tournament anyway.  The fine people at Utah State should rejoice that they were saved from a first round embarassment.

You seem to forget that the NCAA tournament is about "Cinderella Teams". Who are you to say that Utah State doesn't have chance? If they're ranked #22 in the nation then I would say that they have move than a good chance of getting into the Final Four. It may take some luck but with a team like this it's happened in the past and it can happen again.

[habsfannova]

Hey, BS, I said they PROBABLY SHOULD MAKE IT. Read the bottom of my post. Take it easy man. I'm just saying that any system that has humans picking the teams is inherently imperfect.

[See Red]

You seem to forget that the NCAA tournament is about "Cinderella Teams". Who are you to say that Utah State doesn't have chance? If they're ranked #22 in the nation then I would say that they have move than a good chance of getting into the Final Four. It may take some luck but with a team like this it's happened in the past and it can happen again.

You're acting as though this happens all the time. Let me ask you when the last time a mid-major won the NCAA Tournament? It was Indiana State back when Larry Bird played. And it only took one of the best basketball players ever to lead them there. Chances are, Utah State doesn't even have a future NBA player on their roster. That was a loooong time ago. Who exactly did Utah State play this year that makes them SUCH a good team? Yes, I can say that they wouldn't have won it -- and if you ask anyone EVER -- they can say they wouldn't have won it. They didn't even make the tourney... what can that tell you about what their seeding would've been? It would've been awful and they would've faced probably a top 4 or 5 seed. Wow, they weren't saved from embarassment at all. The only teams they played that are worth ANYTHING were Utah and BYU and they're from the 'mighty' MWC. And they lost to Utah, and only beat BYU by 2.

When will you learn that the top 25 polls mean NOTHING?! Hate to break it to you but St. Josephs and Stanford never were, nor ever will be the 2 best teams in the country at the same time.

When it comes down to it... can you say that Utah State is better than any of the at large teams that were picked before them?

[Sec19Row53]

So, Wisconsin DID play a tougher schedule, both in conference and out.

Yeah, according to this RPI crap, but just compare them...the Illini's was harder. No matter what, Wisconsin's wasn't THAT much harder as RPI shows.

Well, which is it?? Illini's was harder? Wisconsin's wasn't THAT much harder?

Based on RPI, Wisconsin's non-conference schedule was 10 places tougher than Illinois'. It may be crap, but at least it's subjective.

Either way, I just can't wait for the dance to begin!!!

[Notch Novelty]

NCAA wanted award schools for going out and playing the big boys on the road. Utah State only wanted home and home. It's there mistake and their knew it.

[the_cynic]

You're acting as though this happens all the time. Let me ask you when the last time a mid-major won the NCAA Tournament? It was Indiana State back when Larry Bird played. And it only took one of the best basketball players ever to lead them there. Chances are, Utah State doesn't even have a future NBA player on their roster. That was a loooong time ago. Who exactly did Utah State play this year that makes them SUCH a good team? Yes, I can say that they wouldn't have won it -- and if you ask anyone EVER -- they can say they wouldn't have won it. They didn't even make the tourney... what can that tell you about what their seeding would've been? It would've been awful and they would've faced probably a top 4 or 5 seed. Wow, they weren't saved from embarassment at all. The only teams they played that are worth ANYTHING were Utah and BYU and they're from the 'mighty' MWC. And they lost to Utah, and only beat BYU by 2.

When will you learn that the top 25 polls mean NOTHING?! Hate to break it to you but St. Josephs and Stanford never were, nor ever will be the 2 best teams in the country at the same time.

When it comes down to it... can you say that Utah State is better than any of the at large teams that were picked before them?

And you fail to take notice that teams don't just want into the tournament to win the championship, it's for fact of just being there. Schools like Utah State live to make such huge accomplishments even if they were to lose in the first 2-3 rounds. Schools like Utah State pull off upsets all the time and that's their idea of winning a championship. The NCAA isn't about just winning championships, it's about being there and being part of the action. I'm not saying Utah State has a shot at a title but to deny them an invitation to a tournament they clearly deserve to be in is just crazy.

[Notch Novelty]

Winning isn't everything. Being there and playing in big arenas on national television will last those players lifetime memory especially if pro basketball isn't option. It's why sports are so great.

Utah State should hate themselves - they knew they had to win their tourney!

[NJTank]

You nailed it for these small schools just being there is a thrill and if they find away to win the are legends forever.

Pop quiz What do you rember the most about the 1st 2nd rounds every year, is nt it teh dramatic wins by schools like Valpo?

[Notch Novelty]

Valpo, Pepperdine, Gonzaga Who?

We wouldn't know who these schools were unless they let em in. Gonzaga wouldn't be a powerhouse if we didn't let em in.

Indiana State never won the tourney they lost to Michigan St.

It's the thrill of being a part of something. It's great honor no matter if you win or lose by 50.

[See Red]

Wasn't the play by Valpo a few years ago during the conference tournament, though? It probably was the NCAA tournament... but i have a memory of it being the conference tourney. You're probably right, though.

But anyways, for conferences like the Big West, winning the conference tournament is practically like winning the National Champion. And I'm sorry -- but winning the regular season of the Big West isn't enough to get you into the tourney.

And BS -- what're you basing your statement that they deserve to be there on? Record doesn't mean everything. Here's why they didn't deserve to make it.

In terms of the Selection committees criteria Utah State

• Didn't make an attempt to play big games on the road. Hell, they didn't make an attempt to play in big games period. This is essential for small schools in the eyes of the selectors. Even if they don't win the games, the schools have nothing to lose and just trying to get big time schools on the road helps their stock. Most schools will be willing to play them at home, so they can't make excuses as to why they didn't atleast schedule road games against them. I can understand why they didn't get home games against them because most of the big schools don't like to travel to play small conference schools.
  
• Didn't win any big games. Their biggest win of the season was against the mighty BYU Cougars who, if not for one good game against Oklahoma State, would not have made the tournament.
  
• They had very little in terms of strength of schedule. I'm sorry, but a schedule full of the Cal Polys, Jackson States, and Idaho States of the world doesn't look all that appealing to the selection committee.
  
• Regular season championships mean nothing when you play in a bad, and small conference like the Big West. These schools know that you have to win your tourney. Bottomline. They did not, so they're on their way to the NIT.
  
• It's supposed to be the best 34(?) at large teams. Can you honestly say that Utah State would beat any of the at large teams that were picked instead of them? Hell, their was a Colorado team that was far more screwed than Utah State that would kill them. Or an Oklahoma team that wasn't good enough for the tournament that would destroy them.
  

[-kj]

The shot for Valparaiso by Bryce Drew was against Mississippi in the 1998 Midwest Regional first round in Oklahoma City. Valpo was the 14 seed, Ole Miss was the 3.