Bonds apparently busted for steroid use.

[The_Admiral]

I don't think Ty Cobb cheated and broke federal drug laws, though. He was just a douche.

[rams80]

I don't think Ty Cobb cheated and broke federal drug laws, though. He was just a douche.

Technically Bonds didn't cheat either. And the justification for keeping Bonds out (at least from the sportswriter types) seems to boil down to "he was just a douche" as well.

[FiddySicks]

Bobby Estella is set to testify against Bonds

Ok I'm pretty much past the whole "Bonds didn't use steriods" denial phase, but of all people to help kill your sides credibility, it'd be Estella. Dude was a backup catcher who had one big season and faded away back into nothing just at the break of the steroid scandal. Plus the biggest reason he wasn't retained by San Fran was because the guy was said to be impossible to get along with. I'm STILL a Bonds fan, of course, but the dude roided. There's no doubt. But really, try to get a guy more credible than Estella.

I can't wait till this Bonds issue and full steroids issue as a whole is over. We're gonna see about half of the roiders in the Hall, and the other half left out in the cold for some insane reason like personality.

[jkrdevil]

Breaking news on Sportscenter. A former teammate is set to testify against bonds.

I'm surprised it's not Kent

/sarcasm

Edited to reflect the above info.

[jkrdevil]

I don't think Ty Cobb cheated and broke federal drug laws, though. He was just a douche.

Technically Bonds didn't cheat either. And the justification for keeping Bonds out (at least from the sportswriter types) seems to boil down to "he was just a douche" as well.

MLB banned steroids and other PED in the early 1990's. It is just they had no way to enforce it until the 03 when Drug testing was finally implemented.

[The_Admiral]

I can't wait till this Bonds issue and full steroids issue as a whole is over. We're gonna see about half of the roiders in the Hall, and the other half left out in the cold for some insane reason like personality.

Personality isn't an "insane" reason. Coopertown inducts people, not statistics. If the guy winds up convicted of perjury, I wouldn't want the guy in. Character should absolutely be a criterion.

[RichardWitham]

then throw out all the guys who had horrible personalities . you do it for one,. do it for all IMHO

[BaltimoreFan]

Good. Get his mess out of the record books and keep him from the hall.

Can we throw that racist prick Cobb out while we're at it? I'd hardly classify Babe Ruth as a good person or role model either. Why is he there?

Trying to sweep the steroids era in baseball under the rug by keeping its participants out of the hall does nothing to educate the future generations about the game and its history.

However, said education is the very raison d'etre of the Hall of Fame. So Bonds and his fellow 'roiders should be in the Hall.

How exactely are we educating future generations by putting roiders in the HOF? The only message that seems to send, is that you have to cheat if you want to get ahead. I agree that we shouldn't sweep the steroid era under rug, but we shouldn't reward the people who benefited from steriod use.

[elkerzox]

I don't think Ty Cobb cheated and broke federal drug laws, though. He was just a douche.

haha. He was a gigantic accorded to the stories.

I agree that with the others that have said that they can't wait until he is replaced in the record books, but i have to ask everyone what they think of this:

what if he is never passed? this was an incredible feat which he may not have reached without the aid of steroids...what if this feat is unreachable without that unnatural aid by all players?

obviously, its a stretch to say that in all the years, decades, maybe even centuries that professional baseball plans to be around, that his record will stand. but what if it does? his spot will surely be asterisked for that entire time as it is now. but what would it do to the sport to know that it's home run king was a cheater? would it encourage a new home run era? would the mlb encourage teams to build shorter parks in order to wipe the slate clean if it was tarnished long enough? or will they take no action and just allow the cheater to claim his rightful place in the top of the record books.

personally i am disappointed that he resorted to steroids to increase his talent. He was already a five tool player with a great career ahead of him, all hes done is tarnish his reputation on the biggest stage possible.

[rams80]

I can't wait till this Bonds issue and full steroids issue as a whole is over. We're gonna see about half of the roiders in the Hall, and the other half left out in the cold for some insane reason like personality.

Personality isn't an "insane" reason. Coopertown inducts people, not statistics. If the guy winds up convicted of perjury, I wouldn't want the guy in. Character should absolutely be a criterion.

If it's part of your history it should be included, no matter how sordid it is. You can even make note of it on the plaque, pointing out why perhaps this person should not be emulated. In fact I would recommend pointing out Bonds' steroid use with the plaque, along with Jackson's role in the Black Sox scandal and Rose's gambling. These all play large roles in the individuals' notoriety, and should not be forgotten.

More importantly, the Hall exists for the history of the game, not to honor a bunch of boy scouts who best fit the idealized notions and decades-old remembrances of a bunch of aging members of a dying industry.

[DG_ThenNowForever]

I can't wait till this Bonds issue and full steroids issue as a whole is over. We're gonna see about half of the roiders in the Hall, and the other half left out in the cold for some insane reason like personality.

Personality isn't an "insane" reason. Coopertown inducts people, not statistics. If the guy winds up convicted of perjury, I wouldn't want the guy in. Character should absolutely be a criterion.

But perhaps a limited one. Barry Bonds holds incredibly relevant baseball records. No one has hit more home runs than him. Because he used the resources of his time -- much like Ruth did of his and Aaron of his -- he should be demonized? I don't buy it. Of course, that doesn't argue your points, but I felt like it needed saying.

And I really don't buy the "character counts" thing. If anything, it takes more integrity to be yourself and stare down people you don't like for 20 years, rather than to fake it. And with the media pressure Bonds got compared to those who came before him, who's to say someone like, say, Joe Morgan would have handled it better?

[STL FANATIC]

Bonds deserves in the HOF.

When McGwire and Clemens, etc. get in.

Yes, Bonds has a much stronger case than McGwire, but that isn't the point.

The point is they both had HOF careers and it's crap to call shenanigans after the fact.

(That and the fact that two guys who are in a dire need of money and screwed their own body up with steroids and are telling two very different tattle-tail stories are the only real case against McGwire. There's a pretty solid chance he took them, but I get tired of this definite assumption business. People have dug the dirt up on Barry. If someone wants to do it on Mac, then start calling it a fact, until then, they all played in a tainted era, but the numbers are the numbers and it still took talent, so let the guys with the numbers in.)

Oh. And let Pete Rose in too.

[DG_ThenNowForever]

I don't know if you're joking, but you're not allowed to wager on games you're managing. For a while in baseball, you were allowed to use steroids. Rose broke the rules, but Bonds didn't.

Blame baseball, not Bonds. Blame Pete Rose, not baseball.

[See Red]

Bonds deserves in. And, hell, I'll say that without even looking at the tail end of his career, when he was probably the best to ever swing a bat. Even before 2001 he was a 3 time MVP (in the top five in voting 8 times), 9 time All-Star, 8 time Gold Glover, and forget Griffey, Bonds was the best player of the 90's -- I get that he 'cheated', and even with a positive test, you can debate whether he even did cheat since it wasn't ever enforced -- cheating is part of baseball's lore. If Barry Bonds doesn't have a place in the Hall of Fame, then it's a joke to even have a Hall of Fame

[Mac the Knife]

Good. Get his mess out of the record books and keep him from the hall.

Can we throw that racist prick Cobb out while we're at it? I'd hardly classify Babe Ruth as a good person or role model either. Why is he there?

Because neither Cobb nor Ruth ever violated federal law related to their on-field performances?

[The_Admiral]

then throw out all the guys who had horrible personalities . you do it for one,. do it for all IMHO

I said character is a criterion, not the only one. It should be taken into account, though. With Bonds, it's not even how he treated sportswriters. That's irrelevant. I think more people's objections are to how he treated coaches, managers, teammates, charities, on and on. DG's point that it's courageous to be an unfettered asswipe is intriguing, but I won't go for it.

[jkrdevil]

Good. Get his mess out of the record books and keep him from the hall.

Can we throw that racist prick Cobb out while we're at it? I'd hardly classify Babe Ruth as a good person or role model either. Why is he there?

Because neither Cobb nor Ruth ever violated federal law related to their on-field performances?

I don't understand why this point is lost on many people. Some people act like all of this is completely off the field stuff not related to their play. It is directly related to their play on the field and thus should absolutly be considered for Hall of Fame entry.

[jkrdevil]

For a while in baseball, you were allowed to use steroids. Rose broke the rules, but Bonds didn't.

Wrong, they both broke the rules.

-MLB under Fay Vincent placed steroids on the banned substance list in 1991. While there was no drug testing it did mention that any player caught with steroids would be subject to penalties. Selig sent out a similar memo in 1997. So they were against the rules.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2217361

-Secondly, steroids became illegal in baseball when they were banned by the government. While MLB does have an anti-trust exemption for some areas of its business it is not above the drug laws.

EDIT: Here is a copy of the Vincent memo courtest of ESPN. As you can see it banned all illegal drugs including steriods, which was specifically mentioned.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/eticket/for...=1991&num=1

[TFoA]

I'd put Bonds in based on his "supposed pre-steroids" performance in the 90s. Even if we were to take away all of the "steroid tainted" numbers, he's still got a HOF quality resume.

Too bad he probably won't get in.

[STL FANATIC]

I don't know if you're joking, but you're not allowed to wager on games you're managing. For a while in baseball, you were allowed to use steroids. Rose broke the rules, but Bonds didn't.

Blame baseball, not Bonds. Blame Pete Rose, not baseball.

As JKR keeps noting, Steroids were very much illegal, so they both broke the rules. Exile from the game if you must.

But they deserve in the HOF. And as much as I think Bonds (and others) should get in, at least what Rose did had absolutely no effect on his career line (as a player).

But hey. Go ahead keep 'em out.

I'll just make fun of the sports hall of fame that tries to be legit while simultaneously not including it's hits and HRs leaders.