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Toronto Argonauts


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Let me correct myself, I'd like to see the CFL expand into the US, but only to cities close to the canadian border in the northern US, like buffalo's location. Sort of how the CHL uses a couple American cities in their leagues.

Sorry, no.

It's been mentioned before; the two leagues coexist with one and other. Canadian football and American football are two different games. The NFL plays in the States, the CFL plays in Canada. Football fans in both countries can follow both leagues, but why risk a stable coexisting relationship by having the two leagues expand into each other's markets?

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Give the Bills name to the Toronto CFL team and move them to Buffalo and give the Argonauts name to the Buffalo NFL team and move them to Toronto. Its a compromise, and I'd love to see the NFL expand to Canada and CFL expand to America. This will probably never happen, but thats the way I'd do it not being a huge football fan.

The CFL doesn't belong in the United States. It's the Canadian Football League and should stay that way. The CFL and NFL both do great coexsisting with each other and I would hate to see the CFL go under.

What he said.... :vaderandluke:

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I keep hearing that the Buffalo Bills will most likely relocate to Toronto within 5 years (if they don't end up relocating to LA). Personally, it's okay by me since I've never liked the name Bills (should have been Bisons) but I've also heard that the Canadian government would block any NFL expansion as long as there's a CFL. And for some reason, the NFL has been subsidizing the CFL to help keep her afloat. So, I'm going to assume that sooner or later, the NFL would stop that and let the CFL go belly-up.

If that happens, Toronto would be a great market for the NFL. Would you favor the NFL keeping the Argonauts name (with a revamped logo) or coming up with a new name... since Toronto Bills wouldn't work. And if not Argonauts...what?

Per one of the many press conferences held by the beloved commish of the NFL during 2008.....ain't gonna happen. Bills are NOT moving anywhere (unless they get sold). The NFL has an agreement with the CFL to not have assistance. Go to NFL.com and watch the press conf. from the Super Bowl for that one. RG isn't perfect, but at least he's doing something while in office, and not just coasting. IN fact, I think Toronto has a better chance of being a permanent pre-season market than it ever does hosting a team...... The NFL doesn't want to expand - 32 teams is perfect for scheduling, etc. Even when the NFL expands to an 18 game regular season, all they will do is add 1 to 2 foreign-soil games every year to give international fans a bigger piece of the NFL pie. That being said, should the NFL ever develop a similar concept to the NBAD League, in the spring (March-June), we could possibly see Toronto as a viable North American market (along with Orlando, San Antonio, Las Vegas, Salt Lake City, Portland, Sacramento, Birmingham, just to name a few cities)..... :flagusa:

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Let me correct myself, I'd like to see the CFL expand into the US, but only to cities close to the canadian border in the northern US, like buffalo's location. Sort of how the CHL uses a couple American cities in their leagues.

9, actually.

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Personally, it's okay by me since I've never liked the name Bills (should have been Bisons)

You don't care if the team moves and breaks the hearts of fans in upstate NY just because you don't like team name? :blink:

I'm aware Buffalo fans are among the most rabid of fans...however IF they are going to move..... and sure, Ralph Wilson won't move them but he won't be the owner forever and the new owner can relocate them to LA or San Antonio or Vegas or Birmingham or Raleigh or Toronto.

Now, I might have the whole CFL being subsidized by the NFL scenario wrong. I thought it was a continuing situation. As I understood it, it was a million dollars to each CFL franchise and assistance in marketing and using the CFL as a farm system to give some players some more seasoning as they did with NFL Europa.

I have heard all along that Canada would not allow an NFL franchise in Toronto (or Vancouver or Montreal etc) as long as there is a CFL. So, I would imagine that the CFL would have to fold first. Does anyone know what the chances of that happening are? Is the CFL in good shape financially? I used to do a lot fo projects with Canadian companies and it was odd that whenever I asked any of them about the CFL, noen of them followed the local CFL franchise. They all were asking me about the NFL teams for office pools and fantasy leagues. And yet I know there are a lot fo Argonaut fans. Hell, when I talk to New York companies I can never find one Jets fan!

People say that the NFL wants to keep the number of teams at 32. Well, if LA gets a franchise, you would think that they would have to add another team to the other conference to at least have an even number. The Bills (and c'mon, no team will be named the Bills outside of Buffalo...Utah Jazz and Los Angeles Lakers are bad enough) might be that team to end up in LA. So, a new team would have to be in Birmingham, San Antonio (Austin?), Raleigh, Las Vegas, Portland.....somewhere.

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The only way the Bills are moving is if some city gives them the same type deal Baltimore gave Art Modell and that isn't going to happen in the current economic climate.

The NFL isn't going to expand when LA gets a team it will be the Chargers, Vikings or Jaguars.

Las Vegas, Raleigh, and Brimingham will never get a teams, any team moving to San Antonio will have to deal with the Cowboys or Texans trying to block it.

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Personally, it's okay by me since I've never liked the name Bills (should have been Bisons)

You don't care if the team moves and breaks the hearts of fans in upstate NY just because you don't like team name? :blink:

I have heard all along that Canada would not allow an NFL franchise in Toronto (or Vancouver or Montreal etc) as long as there is a CFL. So, I would imagine that the CFL would have to fold first. Does anyone know what the chances of that happening are? Is the CFL in good shape financially? I used to do a lot fo projects with Canadian companies and it was odd that whenever I asked any of them about the CFL, noen of them followed the local CFL franchise. They all were asking me about the NFL teams for office pools and fantasy leagues. And yet I know there are a lot fo Argonaut fans. Hell, when I talk to New York companies I can never find one Jets fan!

Now see, I walk all over Toronto, and not only do I never see any Argos merchandise being worn by people, I can never find stores carrying stuff, and that in the host city. Buffalo has all sorts of Biils stuff in every store you go to. Where's the love and support? As crappy as Buffalo has it, there is no question it's people are rabid for the Bills. I cannot say the same for the People of Toronto and the Argos despite the teams long history. On the other hand I have no such trouble finding people wearing NFL stuff. The Bills is the most common but there are other teams floating around. Remember merchandise being worn is as good as advertising, and right not T.O. has very little publicity for the Argos- which in fact may be part of the problem.

Game attendance for Argo games do not impress me either. They have the biggest stadium, and yet they are not attendance leaders and are lucky if they can fill the SkyDome (Rogers Centre) halfway. People around here do not get excited about CFL games. Maybe they do in the west, but not so much here.

I find it almost laughable how militantly some Canadians on this board rush to Canadian football's defense, and yet I just don't see it in actuality. If Toronto showed the same passion and dedication for the Argos that they did for all the other sport teams it host, there might be something to it. Seriously, if the game were hockey, there's be no question of its support. Baseball does great- and even better when the team is doing well. Even Basketball and Soccer are finding their footholds. But CFL football in Toronto is a niche sport even which ever disturbing in the heart of its most populous city.

But even now the Argos have been suffering from step-child syndrome as it has for years. I hear a few Canadians talk a good patriotic stance about how Canadian football is their heritage and means so much for them, yet I see teams that struggle at the gate and in ratings. I see college/university games than get crowds that don't even rival high school games in the States. I hear how the CFL is as popular as ever, and yet the NFL still gets much higher TV ratings in Canada over it's CFL counterpart. Even playoff games and even the Championship struggle at times to find buyers- something that's all but unheard of in the NFL. (Yes I know Arizona & Minnesota flirted with the idea- but they still sold out). When that happens I hear nothing but lame excuses, mostly from the same people, flag waving when it comes to defending the game by word of mouth, yet collectively cannot do a blessed thing when it comes to money. Really, if it's such a great game, then why can they not sell the Dome out every game? Why are the ratings on TV in the toilet in Toronto? Why aren't there hoards of kids wearing Argos ball caps, jackets and jerseys? Don't tell me it's because the team is bad, because they struggled in when the do well on the field. Besides, if the fan base was stable they should still do well when the team's performance is lacking. There's something more to it and yet no one wishes to address it seriously.

I know many people seem to forget is that the NFL has been a constantly evolving sport. Every time a rival league comes along, the NFL is smart enough to recognize new innovation the public takes to and implements them into their own. The game is different even from a decade ago. Because of which the game always seems fresher. Perhaps it's just in it's presentation. Maybe most of the changes do nothing. But it keeps things interesting. The CFL seems to be very much an organization that has struggled to find change. They're afraid of losing their unique identity, afraid of becoming a pale clone to the NFL, and yet they have risked being left behind to another sport (or even a version of its own sport)that might be potentially more entertaining. Something needs to change. I have a feeling that if the NFL wants to, they could put franchises in places like Toronto or Vancouver and without the bigger cities, the other cities could be left with no pro football at all. I'm not saying the CFL needs to switch to the NFL rules, but seriously if you you think they can stay in an unchanging state and remain viable, you have a severe case of denial- both in the sense of entertainment and business. If this is a great product, then what are the Argos/CFL doing wrong in their failure to sell it, that the NFL isn't even trying to do yet succeeding at? Who knows, dare I say it maybe the NFL is just a superior product. If that's the case, it's really okay to say it out loud, nobody will ask you to turn in your citizenship. If however, you're at least willing to say, the CFL is a good brand of football it just needs to do something different- that's okay too. You tell me.

I don't know what changes if any can be implemented to the sport to be applied to make it more accessible to Torontonians. Maybe it's in the marketing, or maybe it's a rule change. I don't know. But despite all the rabid defense I hear about the CFL in here, nobody can actually give a real reason as to why a city with a metro area population of 5 million people, can only sell 18,000 tickets for a pro football game beyond saying some off color remark about how Toronto "sucks". Well which is it? Is there something wrong with how the sport/team/league is presented or is Toronto out of touch with the rest of the country ? Because if they are, and the CFL needs a franchise in Toronto to survive, then the League is in a lot of trouble.

Sorry for the length of this post, but watching the financial troubles of this league is sometime like watching a slow-motion train wreck. There's still plenty of time to change before something drastic happens but it's like nobody is seriously willing to address anything before it's too late. Personally I find Canadian football to be just as entertaining as the American flavor. But I still say it needs to change how it's presented- hether it is going for stability in the markets it already has, or if it hopes to expand to other ones; be it Canadian or American.

We all have our little faults. Mine's in California.

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bluejayone,

great post. Ok lengthy, but w/e.

If I could quickly throw my 2 cents in about why I personally think the Argos aren't doing as well selling the game as the Riders or Bombers of the CFL world.

Before I do, let me say these 2 quick points so you know how I feel about football.

1- I'm a die-hard Bills fan. Bought the Bills in Toronto series, go to 2 or 3 games a year in Buffalo and am seriously considering season tickets next year.

2- I'm a big Argos fan as well. Go to probably 2 to 5 games a year. My dad used to be on the practice squad in the early 80s and it holds that special place in my heart.

So with that said, part of the reason the Argos slipped to averaging below 20,000 this past season was the performance of the team. The season prior I was dating a lady who had season tickets and went to about half of the games and they were generally announced in the 30,000 range. But the point remains...why aren't the Argos a huge attraction in Toronto?

Well, I think the proximity to the states sure helps that. I mean I jump down the highway and an hour and a half later I'm drinking in a parking lot outside the Ralph. Which brings me to the next point. You can hang out and drink. Tailgating is missing from the Argos(or Bills in Toronto) games. It's something that every football fan can enjoy. Then you've got the suit factor. Toronto is Canada's biggest city, we have the best of the best for everything, so I get the feeling that some people are snobby and think "CFL is not the best! we deserve the best!". I disagree with that, but that's an attitude I've noticed.

Something else I think would help is for the Argos to play outside. I'm probably wrong, but let's look at the Als. They moved from the bigger indoor stadium to the smaller outdoor stadium. I feel like that is part of the deal of the CFL, it's outside no matter what and smaller more intimate stadiums seem to bring it together. I could be crazy. It's just something I always thought would be a good idea.

So that's my 2 cents.

I love football no matter how you slice it, but this is why I think the CFL hasn't been as successful in Toronto as it has in other cities.

GTA United(USA) 2015 + 2016 USA Champions/Toronto Maroons (ULL)2014, 2015 + 2022 Gait Cup Champions/Toronto Northmen (TNFF)

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Do the Argos underperform at the gate? Yes.

Do they draw pathetic and apathetic crowds? No.

Did the NFL's "Bills in Toronto" experiment fail to set the country on fire? Most definitely.

Is the CFL in dire straits when it comes to all around attendance, ratings, and financing? Not at all.

Furthermore I've been to my fair share of OUA (Ontario University Athletics) football games, and none of them were anywhere near as large or excited as CFL crowds were in Hamilton and Montréal (the two CFL franchises I've attended home games to).

Sorry Bleujayone, you're simply looking at a small fraction of the overall situation. The CFL isn't a HUGE presence here, you're right. That's just due to the country's general feeling about football, however. If we were truly, as a nation, excited about football and the CFL just didn't do it for us, then the Bills game in Toronto would have been HUGE.

Instead it was met with apathy. As a country we're just not as excited about football compared to the States.

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If Toronto showed the same passion and dedication for the Argos that they did for all the other sport teams it host, there might be something to it. Seriously, if the game were hockey, there's be no question of its support. Baseball does great- and even better when the team is doing well. Even Basketball and Soccer are finding their footholds. But CFL football in Toronto is a niche sport even which ever disturbing in the heart of its most populous city.

Your post is well thought out and makes some good points, but I have to take issue with this section. How can soccer be praised while the Argos are portayed as a failing enterprise, when TFC sells two-thirds as many tickets as the Argos do? The soccer stadium holds 20k and is usually full; the football stadium holds around 32k for CFL (with the upper deck closed) and the Argos averaged around 29k this past season despite an abysmal won-loss record and poor entertainment value.

Also, I really dispute that baseball does "great." It did great in the early 1990s when Skydome was new and the Blue Jays were good, but attendance has been mediocre since 1995. Take away the three dozen Red Sox and Yankees games each season that draw huge crowds from New England and upstate New York, and I bet the Jays would barely average 20,000 per game.

Of all the sports in Toronto, the only ones where the fans are loudly into the game are football, soccer and lacrosse. Crowds at Leafs games are quiet, Jays fans scream for routine flyouts to centre but don't come close to their counterparts in Detroit or Cleveland at really knowing and appreciating the game, and Raptors crowds are there to party as much as they are to watch the game.

A lot of people in Toronto say it is not a "sports town" but rather a "Leafs town." I mostly agree with that but it's not even much of a Leafs town -- a lot of yahoos go nuts when the team wins a first-round playoff game, but it's not like the whole town cares. As is the case in just about every major metropolis in North America (possible exception Philadelphia), there are way more people here who don't give a rat's a$$ about sports than there are sports fans. That's generally not the case in smaller cities like Edmonton, say, or Buffalo.

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A lot of people in Toronto say it is not a "sports town" but rather a "Leafs town." I mostly agree with that but it's not even much of a Leafs town -- a lot of yahoos go nuts when the team wins a first-round playoff game, but it's not like the whole town cares. As is the case in just about every major metropolis in North America (possible exception Philadelphia), there are way more people here who don't give a rat's a$$ about sports than there are sports fans. That's generally not the case in smaller cities like Edmonton, say, or Buffalo.

Good point. Sports teams are far more integral to the identities of smaller cities than larger ones.

Just compare the agonizing in Buffalo to the situation in L.A. - has anyone there lost any sleep over the fact there is no NFL team there? Probably not.

Interest in the Leafs is a mile wide but an inch deep. Sure there are die-hards, but it is more of a cultural talking point than anything else. Just one of those things you make small talk about, like the weather.

Football, soccer and lacrosse, on the other hand, are more of a niche interest where it is really only the diehards that attend. There is no glamour factor in attending a TFC or Argos game, so the Bay Street crowds stay away in favour of events at the ACC instead.

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Just compare the agonizing in Buffalo to the situation in L.A. - has anyone there lost any sleep over the fact there is no NFL team there? Probably not.

But LA sports fans have the Lakers, Dodgers, Angels, Kings, Ducks and Clippers for their pro sports fix and USC and UCLA for their football fix. All Buffalo sports fans would have if the Bills move are the Sabers, U of Buffalo football and Buffalo Bisons minor league baseball.

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There's another difference in that LA has a sizeable population of people who have moved there from other cities, with their loyalties intact. So on any given Sunday in LA you'll have people watching Packer games, or Steeler games, or what have you.

And the Raiders still have a fairly strong hold on the locals (or at least they did when I lived there a couple years ago). Given that football is a television sport first and foremost, having your local team play 400 miles to the north isn't as much a hinderance as you might suspect. You can even go to one of the Raiders clubhouse stores in LA and buy stuff.

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There's another difference in that LA has a sizeable population of people who have moved there from other cities, with their loyalties intact. So on any given Sunday in LA you'll have people watching Packer games, or Steeler games, or what have you.

And the Raiders still have a fairly strong hold on the locals (or at least they did when I lived there a couple years ago). Given that football is a television sport first and foremost, having your local team play 400 miles to the north isn't as much a hinderance as you might suspect. You can even go to one of the Raiders clubhouse stores in LA and buy stuff.

I could be wrong on this and likely am, but don't the Rams still have a pretty strong fanbase in Southern California?

Also, on the topic at hand, until the team packs the vans and moves out of town, I cannot see the Bills leaving Buffalo anytime soon.

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I can't see the NFL really allowing the Bills to move out of Buffalo. The PR downside is huge, and I don't know where they could go that would be beneficial enough for the League to risk it.

There are still a number of Rams fans in LA, but in my experience it's a static number of people who were fans back in the day. New arrivals to LA bring their own allegiances, or adopt the Raiders if they want a local team. The Raiders keep a foothold in the area.

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My two cents: I attended the University where the Argos have their training facilities. We saw Argos players roaming around campus, (usually in the weight room, or near Mr.Sub), and were we starstruck? Were we Impressed? Did we care? No! No! No!

Let me tell you how it is for the demographic of males 18-24 in Toronto....short and sweet: nobody really gives a rat's ass about the Argos. I mean there are some kids who like the CFL, but its safe to say that most people in Toronto are NFL fans.

Mr.Bluejay made a great point in pointing out that finding Argos merchandise is next to impossible. Go to any Footlocker, Champs, Athletes World etc. etc. in Toronto, and good luck finding Argos gear. You can find Chris Bosh/Jose Calderon jerseys, Luke Schenn jerseys, Roy Halladay jerseys, and even Toronto FC gear. Then you'll find a whole host of NFL gear, but no Argos.

Another poster was bang on when he said that Torontonians feel as though they're high class. And I think this is true. Many feel that the CFL is an inferior league to the NFL, and won't support the CFL. It's a snobbish attitude, but this is why Toronto is despised by the rest of Canada.

Now with that being said, if the NFL did grant a team to Toronto, I think it would be a huge hit. I don't think anyone should look at the success of the Argos as a proxy to how a future NFL team would do in Toronto.

I say build a new stadium in the Port Lands, with ample parking...and watch it take off....

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Now with that being said, if the NFL did grant a team to Toronto, I think it would be a huge hit. I don't think anyone should look at the success of the Argos as a proxy to how a future NFL team would do in Toronto.

I say build a new stadium in the Port Lands, with ample parking...and watch it take off....

I'm not using the Argos as a proxy for how a NFL team would do in Toronto, I'm using the Bills' pre-season and regular season games in Toronto as a proxy. Everyone, from the Bills, to the NFL, to the media in southern Ontario expected it to light the city, nay the country, on fire as we Canadians counted our lucky stars that the NFL would grace us with their presence.

What happened? They had give away free tickets to fill a stadium that's smaller then your standard NFL venue and Canadians didn't take to NFL-style tailgating.

If the trendy Toronto crowd gave a rat's ass about the NFL they would have filled the Rogers Centre like they do the ACC for Leafs games, if for no other reason then the NFL in Toronto would have been a novelty event, and thus a place to be seen.

Quite frankly I think the CFL is perfect for the amount that Canadians really care about football. Take the country as a whole, and I just don't think we're as football crazed as the States is. In the States the top team to have in your market is the NFL. People say that in Canada a CFL team is just another team, and I won't argue that. I will argue, however, that if you stuck the NFL in Canada the franchises wouldn't be as revered as they are in the States. A NFL team in Toronto, for example, would become just another team, just like the Argos are.

For the amount this country, on average, cares about football as a sport, the CFL is just fine. Thanks for the slight interest National Football League, but we'll pass.

On top of all of that, Canadian football really is a different game from its American counterpart. If the CFL becomes marginalized or dies off in favour of NFL teams north of the border, Canadian football will die off. And to be honest, I would rather not see that happen.

Let the two leagues continue to coexist, as they have for years.

FTR I feel just as strongly about keeping the CFL out of the States.

Mr.Bluejay made a great point in pointing out that finding Argos merchandise is next to impossible. Go to any Footlocker, Champs, Athletes World etc. etc. in Toronto, and good luck finding Argos gear. You can find Chris Bosh/Jose Calderon jerseys, Luke Schenn jerseys, Roy Halladay jerseys, and even Toronto FC gear. Then you'll find a whole host of NFL gear, but no Argos.

Or maybe you don't see stores selling Argos gear because they can't get it. From what I've heard the CFL's merchandise distribution is piss poor at best. Stores can't sell what the league and teams don't give them, and people can't buy what stores don't sell. Who knows? If the CFL and the teams got their act together and got their merchandise into the mainstream outlets people might be more open to buying it.

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Now with that being said, if the NFL did grant a team to Toronto, I think it would be a huge hit. I don't think anyone should look at the success of the Argos as a proxy to how a future NFL team would do in Toronto.

I say build a new stadium in the Port Lands, with ample parking...and watch it take off....

I'm not using the Argos as a proxy for how a NFL team would do in Toronto, I'm using the Bills' pre-season and regular season games in Toronto as a proxy. Everyone, from the Bills, to the NFL, to the media in southern Ontario expected it to light the city, nay the country, on fire as we Canadians counted our lucky stars that the NFL would grace us with their presence.

What happened? They had give away free tickets to fill a stadium that's smaller then your standard NFL venue and Canadians didn't take to NFL-style tailgating.

If the trendy Toronto crowd gave a rat's ass about the NFL they would have filled the Rogers Centre like they do the ACC for Leafs games, if for no other reason then the NFL in Toronto would have been a novelty event, and thus a place to be seen.

Quite frankly I think the CFL is perfect for the amount that Canadians really care about football. Take the country as a whole, and I just don't think we're as football crazed as the States is. In the States the top team to have in your market is the NFL. People say that in Canada a CFL team is just another team, and I won't argue that. I will argue, however, that if you stuck the NFL in Canada the franchises wouldn't be as revered as they are in the States. A NFL team in Toronto, for example, would become just another team, just like the Argos are.

For the amount this country, on average, cares about football as a sport, the CFL is just fine. Thanks for the slight interest National Football League, but we'll pass.

On top of all of that, Canadian football really is a different game from its American counterpart. If the CFL becomes marginalized or dies off in favour of NFL teams north of the border, Canadian football will die off. And to be honest, I would rather not see that happen.

Let the two leagues continue to coexist, as they have for years.

FTR I feel just as strongly about keeping the CFL out of the States.

Mr.Bluejay made a great point in pointing out that finding Argos merchandise is next to impossible. Go to any Footlocker, Champs, Athletes World etc. etc. in Toronto, and good luck finding Argos gear. You can find Chris Bosh/Jose Calderon jerseys, Luke Schenn jerseys, Roy Halladay jerseys, and even Toronto FC gear. Then you'll find a whole host of NFL gear, but no Argos.

Or maybe you don't see stores selling Argos gear because they can't get it. From what I've heard the CFL's merchandise distribution is piss poor at best. Stores can't sell what the league and teams don't give them, and people can't buy what stores don't sell. Who knows? If the CFL and the teams got their act together and got their merchandise into the mainstream outlets people might be more open to buying it.

I respectfully disagree, I also don't think that using the 'Bills in Toronto' series is a good proxy of how the NFL would be in Toronto. A lot of people in Toronto wouldn't touch that game with 20 foot stick. That series was designed to fail. I mean look at all the negatives,

- $185 upper level tickets,

- Game was played at the Rogers Centre, which isn't fan friendly. Its a cave, its very impersonal, lifeless, and just not a pleasant venue all around.

- No Tailgating

- The Bills were playing.

I mean it really wasn't designed to succeed. I know quite a few people who have traveled to America to watch football games, not just to Buffalo, but to Pittsburgh, to Oakland, to Detroit, to Dallas etc. etc. None of these folks wanted to see the Bills Series. And I've traveled to Baltimore to watch a game. But I would not watch these games at the Rogers Centre. Its just doesn't have that authentic NFL feel to it. It feels so wrong, like a Mercedes Benz dealership in a rusty run down building. It might just be me.

Now build an outdoor stadium with tail gating, and you have a success recipe.

I look at the Toronto FC, the reason why its so successful is because MLSE has successfully managed to capture the European soccer experience in BMO Field.

It brought out all out the European fans living in Toronto to support the team. Now had they put Toronto FC in the Rogers Centre, then it would have been an epic fail.

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