Toronto Argonauts

[IceCap]

Now with that being said, if the NFL did grant a team to Toronto, I think it would be a huge hit. I don't think anyone should look at the success of the Argos as a proxy to how a future NFL team would do in Toronto.

I say build a new stadium in the Port Lands, with ample parking...and watch it take off....

I'm not using the Argos as a proxy for how a NFL team would do in Toronto, I'm using the Bills' pre-season and regular season games in Toronto as a proxy. Everyone, from the Bills, to the NFL, to the media in southern Ontario expected it to light the city, nay the country, on fire as we Canadians counted our lucky stars that the NFL would grace us with their presence.

What happened? They had give away free tickets to fill a stadium that's smaller then your standard NFL venue and Canadians didn't take to NFL-style tailgating.

If the trendy Toronto crowd gave a rat's ass about the NFL they would have filled the Rogers Centre like they do the ACC for Leafs games, if for no other reason then the NFL in Toronto would have been a novelty event, and thus a place to be seen.

Quite frankly I think the CFL is perfect for the amount that Canadians really care about football. Take the country as a whole, and I just don't think we're as football crazed as the States is. In the States the top team to have in your market is the NFL. People say that in Canada a CFL team is just another team, and I won't argue that. I will argue, however, that if you stuck the NFL in Canada the franchises wouldn't be as revered as they are in the States. A NFL team in Toronto, for example, would become just another team, just like the Argos are.

For the amount this country, on average, cares about football as a sport, the CFL is just fine. Thanks for the slight interest National Football League, but we'll pass.

On top of all of that, Canadian football really is a different game from its American counterpart. If the CFL becomes marginalized or dies off in favour of NFL teams north of the border, Canadian football will die off. And to be honest, I would rather not see that happen.

Let the two leagues continue to coexist, as they have for years.

FTR I feel just as strongly about keeping the CFL out of the States.

Mr.Bluejay made a great point in pointing out that finding Argos merchandise is next to impossible. Go to any Footlocker, Champs, Athletes World etc. etc. in Toronto, and good luck finding Argos gear. You can find Chris Bosh/Jose Calderon jerseys, Luke Schenn jerseys, Roy Halladay jerseys, and even Toronto FC gear. Then you'll find a whole host of NFL gear, but no Argos.

Or maybe you don't see stores selling Argos gear because they can't get it. From what I've heard the CFL's merchandise distribution is piss poor at best. Stores can't sell what the league and teams don't give them, and people can't buy what stores don't sell. Who knows? If the CFL and the teams got their act together and got their merchandise into the mainstream outlets people might be more open to buying it.

I respectfully disagree, I also don't think that using the 'Bills in Toronto' series is a good proxy of how the NFL would be in Toronto. A lot of people in Toronto wouldn't touch that game with 20 foot stick. That series was designed to fail. I mean look at all the negatives,

- $185 upper level tickets,

- Game was played at the Rogers Centre, which isn't fan friendly. Its a cave, its very impersonal, lifeless, and just not a pleasant venue all around.

- No Tailgating

- The Bills were playing.

I mean it really wasn't designed to succeed. I know quite a few people who have traveled to America to watch football games, not just to Buffalo, but to Pittsburgh, to Oakland, to Detroit, to Dallas etc. etc. None of these folks wanted to see the Bills Series. And I've traveled to Baltimore to watch a game. But I would not watch these games at the Rogers Centre. Its just doesn't have that authentic NFL feel to it. It feels so wrong, like a Mercedes Benz dealership in a rusty run down building. It might just be me.

Now build an outdoor stadium with tail gating, and you have a success recipe.

I look at the Toronto FC, the reason why its so successful is because MLSE has successfully managed to capture the European soccer experience in BMO Field.

It brought out all out the European fans living in Toronto to support the team. Now had they put Toronto FC in the Rogers Centre, then it would have been an epic fail.

Eh, NFL tickets are pricey, be they for a one-off game or a regular situation.

Also, if Toronto gets any NFL team it will be the Bills. Make no mistake about that. The NFL's current setup is perfect from a scheduling and alignment point of view. So expansion's out of the question.

Toronto would fall within Buffalo's "market" I would think, so any team other then the Bills wouldn't get the go-ahead to make the move. So if you're saying part of the reason the Bills in Canada experiment failed was because it was the Bills, well, that's a pretty big sticking point because in all likelihood the Bills would be Toronto's NFL team if one were to relocate to the Centre of the Universe.

As for the Rogers Centre, well I've never been there for an Argos game, so I can't speak to the stadium's effect regarding football. I've found it a very pleasant stadium to watch a baseball game, however.

I'm not sure the city of Toronto would be in favour of another new stadium, so shortly after the completion of BMO Field. Toronto and the NFL would be like Tampa Bay and MLB- one of the biggest selling points of the market is that they have a stadium that's ready to go to host games. It may not be the best for the situation, but it works, and proposing an entirely new stadium would negate any potential advantage the Rodgers Centre gives Toronto as far as bidding goes.

It's also worth noting that BMO Field isn't the only reason for TFC's success. There's a strong British and European community in Toronto that loves soccer, and thus was willing to support the team. No such population base exists that would guarantee the success of an American football team.

I would also say that the proportion of hardcore NFL fans in Canada, much less the city of Toronto, is a lot smaller then many people assume. Hardcore pro football fans in Canada are small in number proportionally (when compared to the States), and of those I would say only a fraction are NFL fans first and foremost. Say the Bills move to Toronto. Well what is your causal fan who wants to see a pro football game going to do? Go see a pricey NFL game or go the much more economically viable CFL game? Given that we, as a nation, aren't that football crazy, I would say the CFL would win in the minds of most casual southern Ontario sports fans.

Finally, there's the point that many seem to be forgetting; Canadian and American football are two different, distinct games that evolved along nationalistic divisions. If football as a sport was the same across the border, sure no harm in letting the CFL go under. That's not the case though. The CFL is, without a doubt, the vanguard of Canadian football. Junior, high school, and university teams are already using hybrid rules in some cases.

If you allow the NFL into Toronto, you're kissing the Argos goodbye. If that happens the CFL loses the country's largest media market, and eventually goes under. Without a major professional league to uphold the game, Canadian football will slowly, but surly die out. And that's not something I want to see happen.

Look, I'm a Chargers fan. I've been one all my life. Yet I've never even been to San Diego, much less been to a Chargers game (or even a NFL game). While I admit it would be nice to go to at least one in my lifetime, I can honestly say I could go my entire life without going to a NFL game and still remain a loyal Bolts fan. I don't need to destroy a national institution to validate my loyalty to my NFL team of choice.

I'm a Chargers fan and I'm a Ti-Cats fan. I'm also a NFL fan and a CFL fan. I like both games for different reasons. I would HATE to see the CFL go under just so the NFL can make an unneeded expansion up north.

[Jer15]

Icecap has made a really great point in terms of the stadium.

The city of Toronto is broke, like, flat-ass broke. I can't see how they could possible justify even helping finance a new stadium project.

I recall alot of scruteny (sp?) towards the mayor for allowing the city to help finance BMO field.

[CAVALIER]

I am from New Orleans and I honestly try to watch the CFL...I love any football...do any of you have a place that I can read up about the history and rules? Has there ever been a interest in American rules? Just curious please don't blast me....I respect your brand of football

[walby2]

I am from New Orleans and I honestly try to watch the CFL...I love any football...do any of you have a place that I can read up about the history and rules? Has there ever been a interest in American rules? Just curious please don't blast me....I respect your brand of football

Wikipedia has the differences covered.

In terms of interest in American rules, it has come up on occasions. Frank Cosentino wrote a history of the modern-era CFL in which he mentioned at least one instance back in the 1980s where one team's governor proposed adding a fourth down, but it had no support and was quietly dropped.

While some minor aspects of the game may change and follow the NFL's lead, I think it's unlikely that any fundamentally different aspects of the Canadian game will change, i.e. 3 downs, 12 players on the field, 110 yard field with 20 yard endzones, etc.

[Brian in Boston]

Icecap has made a really great point in terms of the stadium.

The city of Toronto is broke, like, flat-ass broke. I can't see how they could possible justify even helping finance a new stadium project.

There's been talk that if Toronto is successful in landing the 2015 Pan American Games, the stadium which will need to be built for the opening ceremonies and track and field competition could later house an NFL franchise. However, unless I'm mistaken, Hamilton, Ontario is now also being eyed as a potential site for said Pan American Games facility.

[BBTV]

I am from New Orleans and I honestly try to watch the CFL...I love any football...do any of you have a place that I can read up about the history and rules? Has there ever been a interest in American rules? Just curious please don't blast me....I respect your brand of football

Wikipedia has the differences covered.

In terms of interest in American rules, it has come up on occasions. Frank Cosentino wrote a history of the modern-era CFL in which he mentioned at least one instance back in the 1980s where one team's governor proposed adding a fourth down, but it had no support and was quietly dropped.

While some minor aspects of the game may change and follow the NFL's lead, I think it's unlikely that any fundamentally different aspects of the Canadian game will change, i.e. 3 downs, 12 players on the field, 110 yard field with 20 yard endzones, etc.

Why does Canadian football use yards when Canada is on the metric system? Shouldn't the field be measured in meters?

[NickNickNick]

I am from New Orleans and I honestly try to watch the CFL...I love any football...do any of you have a place that I can read up about the history and rules? Has there ever been a interest in American rules? Just curious please don't blast me....I respect your brand of football

Wikipedia has the differences covered.

In terms of interest in American rules, it has come up on occasions. Frank Cosentino wrote a history of the modern-era CFL in which he mentioned at least one instance back in the 1980s where one team's governor proposed adding a fourth down, but it had no support and was quietly dropped.

While some minor aspects of the game may change and follow the NFL's lead, I think it's unlikely that any fundamentally different aspects of the Canadian game will change, i.e. 3 downs, 12 players on the field, 110 yard field with 20 yard endzones, etc.

Why does Canadian football use yards when Canada is on the metric system? Shouldn't the field be measured in meters?

Because the Canadian game has been around for 100 years, and the metric system only 40. I have met few Canadians who really on the metric system for anything other than buying drugs or pop. There's a new generation of some who are finally using it, but it will never change in football.

[walby2]

Because the Canadian game has been around for 100 years, and the metric system only 40. I have met few Canadians who really on the metric system for anything other than buying drugs or pop. There's a new generation of some who are finally using it, but it will never change in football.

I think there was at least a token effort to go metric back in the 1970s - the Winnipeg Velodrome (which was the site of a lot of high school football back then) had a scoreboard which read "metres to go".

I'm sure the fact that a metre is not the same as a yard was also a complicating factor - 110 yards (the length of a Canadian field) equals 100.6 metres.

[IceCap]

Because the Canadian game has been around for 100 years, and the metric system only 40. I have met few Canadians who really on the metric system for anything other than buying drugs or pop. There's a new generation of some who are finally using it, but it will never change in football.

I think there was at least a token effort to go metric back in the 1970s - the Winnipeg Velodrome (which was the site of a lot of high school football back then) had a scoreboard which read "metres to go".

I'm sure the fact that a metre is not the same as a yard was also a complicating factor - 110 yards (the length of a Canadian field) equals 100.6 metres.

Most English speaking nations that went Metric (British Commonwealth nations, for the most part) never really abandoned the Imperial system anyway, so it's not that odd that in Canada a duality would exist in some cases. Heck, Metric isn't universally excepted in Britain.

[Gothamite]

Because the Canadian game has been around for 100 years, and the metric system only 40.

Actually, the metric system goes back to the 18th century - George Washington considered moving the United States over to metric during his presidency.

The point itself is well taken, though. Canada's history with the metric system is much shorter than that of the CFL.

[BBTV]

Because the Canadian game has been around for 100 years, and the metric system only 40.

Actually, the metric system goes back to the 18th century - George Washington considered moving the United States over to metric during his presidency.

The point itself is well taken, though. Canada's history with the metric system is much shorter than that of the CFL.

That would have cemented his status as the greatest president of all time.

[NickNickNick]

Because the Canadian game has been around for 100 years, and the metric system only 40.

Actually, the metric system goes back to the 18th century - George Washington considered moving the United States over to metric during his presidency.

The point itself is well taken, though. Canada's history with the metric system is much shorter than that of the CFL.

In Canada. Metric was made law in 70-71ish.