A Fraud caught Juicing in 2003

[Mac the Knife]

Mac, you're waiting for further confirmation that he's on this list, not denying the impact of this list, correct?

Absolutely. I'm merely playing devil's advocate; if it's confirmed, Alex Rodriguez should be held in the same view as anyone else who roided.

And as for the Cobb vs. Bonds argument, it doesn't hold up for me for the simple reason that nothing Ty Cobb did illegally was related to his play on the field. Ty Cobb might've been a lot of things, but nothing he's ever been accused of can be perceived to have had a direct impact on his ability to play the game. From an "HOF eligibility" perspective, in my view, Bonds perjuring himself doesn't have nearly the weight as committing the federal crime of using the stuff in the first place.

I firmly believe Bonds, McGwire, Palmiero, Sosa, or anyone else who juiced shouldn't be HOF-eligible, and that notations (asterisks if you will) should accompany their lifetime statistical totals along with any seasonal statistics that were potentially steroid-enhanced. Whether a "baseball rule" or not, anyone who used such substances was violating federal law in an effort to improve their performance on the field, which to me supersedes the "it wasn't against baseball's rules" argument. And a precedent of sorts already exists here - Dave Parker has not, nor ever will get into the HOF due to his involvement in the 1985 Pittsburgh drug trials. Did he violate a baseball rule? No. Did he commit crimes? You bet. Does that exclude him from the HOF? It doesn't, if it improved his performance in any way, I think it should.

[Mac the Knife]

ty cobb was a bad person, if you listen to the media, so was bonds. we all know that is hogwash on bonds. but because he pissed off sportswriters he wont get into the hall and that is a damn shame. and if you go by his records, bonds deserves to go into the hall. just take steroids out of it. but if we are compairing situations here, ty cob was a racist and yet he still got in, but because bonds used steroids he doesnt? WTF?

Ty Cobb never committed a crime for the purposes of improving his ability to perform on the field, then amplify the issue by committing a felony (i.e., perjury) when asked about it.

Again I will point out that Juan Marichal did commit a crime on the field but he's still in the Hall of Fame. He may not have been charged but his actions in clubbing Johnny Roseboro with a bat were criminal. Should he not be there either? If you're going to keep Bonds out then Marichal should be booted too.

Personally, I'd have no problem with that.

[jkrdevil]

If you're going to keep a player out of the hall of fame for cheating, when his numbers, regardless of cheating, justify his placement in the Hall of Fame, kick everyone who's ever been caught cheating out of the Hall of Fame. Bonds was the best player of the 90's, and he put up Hall of Fame numbers as a scrawny, base-stealing, goldglove winning LF.

That's a bit of revisionist history there. I don't think at any point of the 1990's was Bonds considered the best player in the game. The consensus was that Ken Griffey Jr. was the best player of the 90's. Bonds was considered a star and future HOF then but not the very best player.

Bonds wasn't even considered at the top of the all time players rankings until he stated belting home runs late in a career. Bonds was left off the All-Century Team in 1999, which as a fan vote favored more of he contemporary player. Tony Gwynn recieved more votes than Bonds in that.

[WJMorris3]

You never know. A*Rod could very well be cleared.

Of course, he could also be creamed, but that's a whole nother kettle of fish.

[See Red]

Mac, you're waiting for further confirmation that he's on this list, not denying the impact of this list, correct?

Absolutely. I'm merely playing devil's advocate; if it's confirmed, Alex Rodriguez should be held in the same view as anyone else who roided.

And as for the Cobb vs. Bonds argument, it doesn't hold up for me for the simple reason that nothing Ty Cobb did illegally was related to his play on the field. Ty Cobb might've been a lot of things, but nothing he's ever been accused of can be perceived to have had a direct impact on his ability to play the game. From an "HOF eligibility" perspective, in my view, Bonds perjuring himself doesn't have nearly the weight as committing the federal crime of using the stuff in the first place.

Ty Cobb's been accused of participating in fixing games.

[See Red]

If you're going to keep a player out of the hall of fame for cheating, when his numbers, regardless of cheating, justify his placement in the Hall of Fame, kick everyone who's ever been caught cheating out of the Hall of Fame. Bonds was the best player of the 90's, and he put up Hall of Fame numbers as a scrawny, base-stealing, goldglove winning LF.

That's a bit of revisionist history there. I don't think at any point of the 1990's was Bonds considered the best player in the game. The consensus was that Ken Griffey Jr. was the best player of the 90's. Bonds was considered a star and future HOF then but not the very best player.

Bonds wasn't even considered at the top of the all time players rankings until he stated belting home runs late in a career. Bonds was left off the All-Century Team in 1999, which as a fan vote favored more of he contemporary player. Tony Gwynn recieved more votes than Bonds in that.

Bonds was the best of the 90's. Bonds also wasn't the most liked player in the League (he was considered a jerk long before he ever touched a syringe), even then, and Griffey was the leagues darling. The media loves Griffey, hated Bonds... so that would contribute to anything with voting. Bill James, one of the first people, and probably the most prominent person, to use Sabermetrics named Bonds as the best player of the 90's, saying "Certainly the most unappreciated superstar of my lifetime... Griffey has always been more popular, but Bonds has been a far, far greater player."

Here's the average season for the two from '90-'99

			AB	AVG	R	HR	RBI	SB	OBP	SLG
Bonds		489	.302	109	36	108	34	.432	.603
Griffey		538	.302	100	38	109	15	.383	.578

And for OPS+, Bonds was better every single year of the decade.

Granted, the first couple years of the 90's were also among the first couple years of Griffey's career, but the last couple years of the 90's were towards what should've been the downturn of Bonds' career. Griffey's batting average actually got worse later in his career, including the three years before he started to really battle injuries (his second season in Cincy on)

Barry Bonds was the best combination of power and speed in the history of the MLB -- who else in the history of the league has ever had a 30/30 decade? And he's one of only four guys in the 40/40 club. And he had a great eye -- surpassing Griffey's career high OBP 9 times before 2001. He's also considered one of the best defensive LF's of all-time, and one a gold glove in each year but one -- so while I'll give the nod to Griffey for playing the more difficult, and important position, its not by nearly as much as one would think. And for what it's worth, Griffey played in one of the leagues best hitters parks, Bonds played in one of the leagues best pitchers parks. I saw an article that an article that compared their WARP's on baseball prospectus out, and can't seem to find it now, but the numbers overwhelmingly favored Barry Bonds. Frankly, the further you look into the numbers, the less of a debate it becomes. Not only was Bonds better than Griffey... but it's not really even all that close.

I'll add: Bonds deserves in because steroids didn't make him a Hall of Famer -- steroids turned him from one of the 15 greatest of all-time, and maybe the most underappreciated talent in the history of the game, into, probably, the best player in the history of the game... but they did not make him a Hall of Famer.

[oddball]

A couple of things. First, I've always sat there and thought the question when people talked about how they were rooting for Alex to beat Barry's record, and it was, "What if Alex took steroids? Then what?" My theory is this, and this would clear a lot of problems as far as baseball is concerned, if a person is caught having used steroids, you find out what years and you wipe out all stats for those years. All of a sudden Bonds, McGuire, Sosa, etc. are no longer in the record books. If Roger Clemens used steroids and won a Cy Young, you take it away and it becomes invalid for that year. As long as these people are validated with records and awards, then baseball is admitting that it still is looking the other way and their credibility is still in question to me.

[pcgd]

A couple of things. First, I've always sat there and thought the question when people talked about how they were rooting for Alex to beat Barry's record, and it was, "What if Alex took steroids? Then what?" My theory is this, and this would clear a lot of problems as far as baseball is concerned, if a person is caught having used steroids, you find out what years and you wipe out all stats for those years. All of a sudden Bonds, McGuire, Sosa, etc. are no longer in the record books. If Roger Clemens used steroids and won a Cy Young, you take it away and it becomes invalid for that year. As long as these people are validated with records and awards, then baseball is admitting that it still is looking the other way and their credibility is still in question to me.

McGuire nor Sosa was ever caught. They gave terrible interviews in congress, but they were never caught nor tested positive.

The only thing you can say for a fact is that McGuire took Andro and Sosa corked his bat. Andro wasn't illegal or banned at that time. Sosa corked his bat in 2003. I guess if you want to take his 40 home runs away that season go ahead.

I think both used, but its a slippery slope if you're going to take away stats from people because you think or believe they took steroids...

[JQK]

You can't take away the stats, but it is up to the fans to make sure that these "records" are never accepted as legitimate.

It's the one thing the fans can actually do.

[BBTV]

A couple of things. First, I've always sat there and thought the question when people talked about how they were rooting for Alex to beat Barry's record, and it was, "What if Alex took steroids? Then what?" My theory is this, and this would clear a lot of problems as far as baseball is concerned, if a person is caught having used steroids, you find out what years and you wipe out all stats for those years. All of a sudden Bonds, McGuire, Sosa, etc. are no longer in the record books. If Roger Clemens used steroids and won a Cy Young, you take it away and it becomes invalid for that year. As long as these people are validated with records and awards, then baseball is admitting that it still is looking the other way and their credibility is still in question to me.

Say I had a clause in my contract in 200X that earned me an extra 500K for winning the Cy Young, but I finished second to Clemens that year. If his award is wiped out, do I now have a claim to that 500K?

What if I'm a pitcher who gave up five home runs to A-Rod in 2003. If his homeruns are wiped from the books, does my ERA now have to get re-calculated? If I had incentives in my contract, I'd sure want the numbers to be re-run.

Unfortunately, wiping records from the books is not practical. I think that the most that could possibly be done is a *.

[Cujo]

This just in from SportsCenter:

A-Rod has admited during an interview with Peter Gammons that he used performance-enhancing drugs during his three seasons in Texas, 2001-03.

[FiddySicks]

So are people still going to jump on Bonds and McGwire and peg them as such evil people? Yeah, probably. Oh well, they're still two of the best hitters of their time (which was now certainly PACKED with steroids) and should be recognized as so. Who cares if they were :censored:s?

[RichardWitham]

dan, dont you know that bonds and mcgwire are a embarrasment to the game, maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan?

i think they should be in the hall anyway

[gingerbreadmann]

I'm glad he just admitted it. I didn't want to make reactionary judgments from when the report came out until now, and I'm happy he didn't deny it. Now we can move on more easily than we could if he denied it, and he gains some respect out of it. Good for him.

[patsox]

Good move by A-Rod. A lot of people already hate him and would have hated him more had he denied it in a Bonds-like manner. People are still going to hate him and hate him even more than before, but I think this should blow over more quickly now. What I wonder is whether he has been on anything since then. That statement doesn't necessarily rule that out.

[wdm1219inpenna]

Baseball needs to fold. Pro sports needs to fold. This needs to go away. All the lying, all the greed has to stop. The second coming cannot happen soon enough for me. I'm no Saint, and I know I'm wrong to be writing this and passing judgment over A-Rod, and everybody else. I pray that this will destroy Major League Baseball. I have had it with MLB. I've had it with this game that has been ruined. It was disgraced in 1919 by the Black Sox scandal. It will be forever disgraced by the fact that MLB did not allow any black players until 1947. "Work" stoppages in 1981, 1994, endless greed, endless blind adoration for grown men hitting a ball, throwing a ball and catching a ball. Please, let MLB fold. Let these players get real jobs, and struggle like the rest of us, the very ones who continue to go to the ballpark and pay obscene prices to watch these liars, and these players who have zero morals, none, zero. Baseball was legit from 1947 - 1980. 1981 - 1993 it was semi-legit at best, but for me, in light of all of this, Joe Carter's 3 run homer in Game 6 of the 1993 World Series was the end of baseball. 3 divisions, wildcards, steroids, endless greed, no salary cap, all has ruined this game, and there is no winning me back. It's over, my love affair with MLB was already in critical condition for the past several years, but this news on Saturday pulled the plug for me. I truly hope and pray MLB folds in light of and in spite of their short-sightedness, greed, and trying to be bigger than the game itself. This is the ultimate shame. The United States once served as an example for others, now, we're a laughing stock, and we have disgraced the history of this nation and of mankind too.

[TFoA]

I'm glad he just admitted it. I didn't want to make reactionary judgments from when the report came out until now, and I'm happy he didn't deny it. Now we can move on more easily than we could if he denied it, and he gains some respect out of it. Good for him.

Agreed. He's got a rough year ahead of him, but if he has a good year on the field this year, and has another good year the next, this is basically going to blow over. America, as a society, is very forgiving if someone admits that they messed up and they don't go on trying to deny it like a Floyd Landis, Barry Bonds, or Roger Clemens. A-Rod will be alright in the long run.

[Mac the Knife]

Mac, you're waiting for further confirmation that he's on this list, not denying the impact of this list, correct?

Absolutely. I'm merely playing devil's advocate; if it's confirmed, Alex Rodriguez should be held in the same view as anyone else who roided.

And as for the Cobb vs. Bonds argument, it doesn't hold up for me for the simple reason that nothing Ty Cobb did illegally was related to his play on the field. Ty Cobb might've been a lot of things, but nothing he's ever been accused of can be perceived to have had a direct impact on his ability to play the game. From an "HOF eligibility" perspective, in my view, Bonds perjuring himself doesn't have nearly the weight as committing the federal crime of using the stuff in the first place.

Ty Cobb's been accused of participating in fixing games.

And if those accusations were proven accurate, Cobb shouldn't have been inducted, and should've been banned for life.

[Mac the Knife]

I didn't hate him before this, I don't hate him now, but everything he's done over the course of his career is now permanently tainted, no matter what.

[See Red]

Mac, you're waiting for further confirmation that he's on this list, not denying the impact of this list, correct?

Absolutely. I'm merely playing devil's advocate; if it's confirmed, Alex Rodriguez should be held in the same view as anyone else who roided.

And as for the Cobb vs. Bonds argument, it doesn't hold up for me for the simple reason that nothing Ty Cobb did illegally was related to his play on the field. Ty Cobb might've been a lot of things, but nothing he's ever been accused of can be perceived to have had a direct impact on his ability to play the game. From an "HOF eligibility" perspective, in my view, Bonds perjuring himself doesn't have nearly the weight as committing the federal crime of using the stuff in the first place.

Ty Cobb's been accused of participating in fixing games.

And if those accusations were proven accurate, Cobb shouldn't have been inducted, and should've been banned for life.

Okay, then guys like McGwire and Sosa belong in the Hall of Fame.