DPS approves Denver South High move to drop 'racist' logo

[The_Admiral]

There's a lot more to Confederate/southern imagery and nostalgia than racism.

Kinda off topic: What does 'Bourica" mean? I see it on cars all the time; my hypothesis is that it is Spanish for "bad driver".

[RollWolfpack]

The consequences of secession and having rebel troops of the confederacy held prevalent for a century following the war and some would argue the effects are continuing today, and it's ignorant/unrealistic to expect all memory and nostalgia to be forgotten from the period that helped shape the entire American landscape.

It's been 150 years. What effects are still present?

My point exactly.

And that's also the point I was trying to get across. I guess I didn't necessarily word everything correctly. Thanks jayjackson for arguing the same point.

But to answer the question about 150 years later...after the war, little to no money for reconstruction was awarded to the states, and many southern states were left to deteriorate and fend for themselves. Those consequences of secession, providing less money for advancement during that time period left the south behind other areas in the country. I don't feel the south is any different than any other part of the nation today, but some would argue that.

[The_Admiral]

You have better food than New England.

[TalktoChuck]

Oh Johnny Rebel, good riddance. Finally he is gone. It took South long enough to get rid of it.

[DrBear]

My great-grandfather fought for the Confederates*, so I'm getting a kick out of these replies...oops, sorry, a little FARK.com there.

Anyway, for anyone to say the Civil War was not fought over slavery was, well, bogus, to use a term of the 1860s. The Southern states did not secede because they just didn't like the cut of Lincoln's beard. This was the end of a long and ongoing battle over the spreading of slave states into new territories, something the Southern states backed. It was covered with the term "states rights" as was the continuing battle over segregation in the mid-20th century. I agree that the South is a different place now than it was 50 years ago, and I am glad to see those changes. Those changes, certainly, should include casting away the symbolism of almost 200 years ago for modern, understandable representations.

Admittedly, I believe one can honor ones ancestors - bravery in battle is something that should always be honored - without approving the cause for which they fought. I respect our Vietnam and Iraq veterans but believe the U.S. should never have been in either place, for example, and I abhor those in the 60s who attacked returning soldiers because they were against the war.

Actually, if you want to do a modern symbol for "Rebels," how about James Dean?

--

*He is the only Wisconsin Confederate veteran, having decided on a whim to join a Mississippi regiment when he was down south while the war broke out. He fought and was wounded at Gettysburg, escaped, and returned home to Wisconsin, where he lived until 1901.

[twi]

There's a lot more to Confederate/southern imagery and nostalgia than racism.

Kinda off topic: What does 'Bourica" mean? I see it on cars all the time; my hypothesis is that it is Spanish for "bad driver".

Oh noes!! I've been outed!!

[footballfiji]

Good. Stupid name, bad logo.

DPS approves Denver South High move to drop 'racist' logo

I like this headline. See, if this were in Alabama, the school board would probably deny the high school's move to drop a racist logo. "No! You'll KEEP being the Rebels!"

Considering there are only 9 schools in the entire state with "Rebels" as their nickname, I doubt it.

[lbr218]

Well, the fact that many southerners still religiously display the Confederate flag is a bit disturbing to me.

On the campus where I live, there is a fraternity house right across the street (KA) and they have a very large flagpole in front of their house. They display the flag of the CSA, then the old state flag of Georgia (http://www.confederatemercantile.com/GAflag-big.gif), and finally, below those two, the flag of the United States. Now I think that's wrong. Do you?

Here's kind of what it looks like:

[roxfan00]

ON a different subject, this a pic of the Denver South High footbal team...is that a Superman decal on the helmet? and if that is the Superman logo for their helmet decal, wouldn't they need DC Comics permission to use it?

[Breakwood]

Kinda off topic: What does 'Bourica" mean? I see it on cars all the time; my hypothesis is that it is Spanish for "bad driver".

Boricua's are Puerto Ricans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puerto_Rican_people#Boricua

[The_Admiral]

Oh noes!! I've been outed!!

It's just that your timing was impeccable.

[roxfan00]

Kinda off topic: What does 'Bourica" mean? I see it on cars all the time; my hypothesis is that it is Spanish for "bad driver".

Boricua's are Puerto Ricans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puerto_Rican_people#Boricua

[The_Admiral]

Miguel Perez sure had a lot of body hair.

[footballfiji]

Well, the fact that many southerners still religiously display the Confederate flag is a bit disturbing to me.

On the campus where I live, there is a fraternity house right across the street (KA) and they have a very large flagpole in front of their house. They display the flag of the CSA, then the old state flag of Georgia (http://www.confederatemercantile.com/GAflag-big.gif), and finally, below those two, the flag of the United States. Now I think that's wrong. Do you?

Here's kind of what it looks like:

I wouldn't use KA as an example. KA's everywhere do that. It's part of the history and ritual. Most other greek organizations think it's asinine and stupid.

[scottysprings]

Negative connotation of the Confederate flag has much more to do with its association with the ancestors of the actual Confederates rather than the Confederates themselves. 150 years is long enough to accept the Confederates' actions as history, but the history of southern racism and segregation is still fresh in everyone's minds. When KKK members and other supremacist and racist whites down south were displaying the Confederate flag around for everyone to see, that's what it became associated with.

[oldschoolvikings]

I am both happy and, frankly, amazed that some moron has yet to use this thread to complain about "political correctness".

[chakfu]

I'll be the first one to say that slavery is wrong,

You say that like the wrongness of slavery is a point of contention...

Seriously, you do have a point; but I don't think that the fact that the North wasn't exactly a bunch of idealist abolitionist angels, and that they had somehow means that the Civil War wasn't about slavery and that the Confederacy and its flags don't have extremely racist connotations. A racist-by-modern-standards Union faught a really-racist-by-modern-standards Confederacy; the Union survives today and its flag symbolizes lots of things, good and bad, about the United States. The Confederacy ceased to exist long ago and its flags represent a legacy of the losing side, the side of treason and slavery.

I don't see why the Confederacy isn't swept under the rug and avoided as a dark and unfortunate time in the history of the South - much like any decent German treats the Nazi era. The implication is that anyone flying the Confederate banner endorses the values of the old south and confederacy - it doesn't seem a lot different than Neo-Nazi's and swastikas.

The Civil War wasn't necessarily about slavery from the North's perspective, but it seems obvious it was from the South's. From the North's perspective it may have been about perserving the Union, but are we supposed to think that from the South's perspective it was about breaking up the Union and seceding for the fun of it, seceding just to say they could? States' rights has always just been doublespeak for the right to institutionalize racism, so in that way maybe secession was about "states' rights".

[chakfu]

Secession was about much more than slavery. Saying that all the Confederacy was about is slavery is just as wrong as tajmccall's analogy. Remember, most of the southerners did not own any slaves and shared living conditions that were just as poor.

Were those poor, non-slave owners the ones that decided to secede? I doubt that they had any quarrel with the Viet Cong.

I guess most actual soldiers may not have had much at stake regarding slavery, but I doubt they had much at stake regarding states rights either - I doubt that the average soldier in a large army has ever had a huge stake in a war apart from an idea of defending his home.

[rams80]

Well, the fact that many southerners still religiously display the Confederate flag is a bit disturbing to me.

On the campus where I live, there is a fraternity house right across the street (KA) and they have a very large flagpole in front of their house. They display the flag of the CSA, then the old state flag of Georgia (http://www.confederatemercantile.com/GAflag-big.gif), and finally, below those two, the flag of the United States. Now I think that's wrong. Do you?

Here's kind of what it looks like:

Did Sherman show up in that part of the world in 1864/5? Maybe they are using the "we never surrendered" argument.

[rams80]

I don't see why the Confederacy isn't swept under the rug and avoided as a dark and unfortunate time in the history of the South - much like any decent German treats the Nazi era. The implication is that anyone flying the Confederate banner endorses the values of the old south and confederacy - it doesn't seem a lot different than Neo-Nazi's and swastikas.

Speaking as a historian, it's a very bad idea to "sweep under the rug" any part of your history. The bad parts of your history are as much a part of your identity as the good, and ignoring them only hinders your understanding of yourself. For what it's worth the Civil War will always be one of the seminal events in American history; it was only through the bloodshed and conflict that the idea of the supremacy of the Federal Government were hammered home to all involved, in addition to eventually bringing an end to slavery.

Personally, I feel "the Great Forgetting" in Germany is not a good thing. It would be far better for Germany to continue to confront its past on occasion, explain why Nazism is so abhorrent, and generally not take a "everyone was on vacation stance" from 1939-1945.

(Of course, Germany at least has handled the legacy of World War Two better than Japan, which, well, doesn't try to really come to grips and still on occasion tries to paint itself as the defender of Asia against Western Aggression. Hey, we needed the bases during the Cold War, so sure, whatever. )

The Civil War wasn't necessarily about slavery from the North's perspective, but it seems obvious it was from the South's. From the North's perspective it may have been about perserving the Union, but are we supposed to think that from the South's perspective it was about breaking up the Union and seceding for the fun of it, seceding just to say they could? States' rights has always just been doublespeak for the right to institutionalize racism, so in that way maybe secession was about "states' rights".

Slavery was certainly one of the central states' rights they wished to preserve, but there was more to the idea of states' rights than that. The Southern states (and likely some of the Northern states as well) had an attitude that the Constitution was indeed a compact or agreement between multiple equal states or polities, and that like any agreement, it could be abandoned if necessary-typically if they felt that the federal government had overstepped its bounds under the agreement. The Nullification Crisis of 1832, for example, was not over the issue of slavery, but rather over tariffs. Essentially, from the creation of the Constitution until the end of the Civil War, there was a conflict over how the states related to the central government and its laws.

It's also interesting, and pertinent, to point out that Richmond also encountered difficulties in trying to get the states to agree to something approaching a coherent military strategy for defense and offense, or to release soldiers for use where they could do the most good. Some of the Confederate States were so married to the idea of states rights that they allowed it to overwhelm their best interest.