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Premier League Title Race


heernumurr

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Possible confusion here-I was referring to City's season in (the now) League One as most of the post was about the current position of the once mighty Leeds in that division and twice European Cup Winners Forest recent spell there.

Ah, I see now. Yeah, West Ham didn't go down that far, but I do feel that they came back stronger. I should get my brother to post on this (he lurks around these boards), he's a huge West Ham fan.

Would be interested to know the teams that you guys see as "deserving" of being in the Premiership, not on the strength of their game or squad, but on history and reputation. I've always felt Birmingham and Wolves should be there, but have never seemed to make it stick when they are. On the other hand, Wigan have done well in cementing their place, but I just don't see them as a top flight club.

I suppose what I'm asking in a way is, if the Premier League were to move to a franchise system, who would be in?

Personally I think it would be way to tough to do and that's what makes the EPL so great no league playoffs but teams fight to stave off relegation and that's what is great about this league but if you were planing on doing just 20 teams with no relegation it's a must you have the clubs that founded the Premier League no matter how bad or how good they are so that means.

10 Founding Members

Arsenal

Aston Villa

Blackburn

Chelsea

Everton

Liverpool

Manchester City

Manchester United

Middlesbrough

Tottenham

Leeds

Newcastle

Sheffield United

Southampton

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Possible confusion here-I was referring to City's season in (the now) League One as most of the post was about the current position of the once mighty Leeds in that division and twice European Cup Winners Forest recent spell there.

Ah, I see now. Yeah, West Ham didn't go down that far, but I do feel that they came back stronger. I should get my brother to post on this (he lurks around these boards), he's a huge West Ham fan.

Would be interested to know the teams that you guys see as "deserving" of being in the Premiership, not on the strength of their game or squad, but on history and reputation. I've always felt Birmingham and Wolves should be there, but have never seemed to make it stick when they are. On the other hand, Wigan have done well in cementing their place, but I just don't see them as a top flight club.

I suppose what I'm asking in a way is, if the Premier League were to move to a franchise system, who would be in?

Personally I think it would be way to tough to do and that's what makes the EPL so great no league playoffs but teams fight to stave off relegation and that's what is great about this league but if you were planing on doing just 20 teams with no relegation it's a must you have the clubs that founded the Premier League no matter how bad or how good they are so that means.

10 Founding Members

Arsenal

Aston Villa

Blackburn

Chelsea

Everton

Liverpool

Manchester City

Manchester United

Middlesbrough

Tottenham

Leeds

Newcastle

Sheffield United

Southampton

Portsmouth

West Ham United along with Newcastle were the first to clubs awarded Promotion back in 1993.

Wolves??

Sunderland???

 

JETS|PACK|JAYS|NUFC|BAMA|BOMBERS|RAPS|ORANJE|

 

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Would be interested to know the teams that you guys see as "deserving" of being in the Premiership, not on the strength of their game or squad, but on history and reputation.

I suppose what I'm asking in a way is, if the Premier League were to move to a franchise system, who would be in?

Hmmmmm. Interesting question. Off the top of my head, my 20 teams would be:

Arsenal

Aston Villa

Blackburn Rovers

Bolton Wanderers

Chelsea

Everton

Leeds United

Liverpool

Manchester City

Manchester United

Middlesbrough

Newcastle United

Nottingham Forest

Sheffield United

Sheffield Wednesday

Sunderland

Tottenham Hotspur

West Bromwich Albion

West Ham United

Wolverhampton Wanderers

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Would be interested to know the teams that you guys see as "deserving" of being in the Premiership, not on the strength of their game or squad, but on history and reputation.

I suppose what I'm asking in a way is, if the Premier League were to move to a franchise system, who would be in?

Hmmmmm. Interesting question. Off the top of my head, my 20 teams would be:

Arsenal

Aston Villa

Blackburn Rovers

Bolton Wanderers

Chelsea

Everton

Leeds United

Liverpool

Manchester City

Manchester United

Middlesbrough

Newcastle United

Nottingham Forest

Sheffield United

Sheffield Wednesday

Sunderland

Tottenham Hotspur

West Bromwich Albion

West Ham United

Wolverhampton Wanderers

Gimme Southampton over West Brom and we are in agreement, though a case can be made for Portsmouth too.

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Hmmmmm. Interesting question. Off the top of my head, my 20 teams would be:

Arsenal

Aston Villa

Blackburn Rovers

Bolton Wanderers

Chelsea

Everton

Leeds United

Liverpool

Manchester City

Manchester United

Middlesbrough

Newcastle United

Nottingham Forest

Sheffield United

Sheffield Wednesday

Sunderland

Tottenham Hotspur

West Bromwich Albion

West Ham United

Wolverhampton Wanderers

Gimme Southampton over West Brom and we are in agreement, though a case can be made for Portsmouth too.

It was a struggle to determine my last couple of slots. Birmingham City, Portsmouth, West Bromwich Albion, West Ham United and Sheffield Wednesday were all in the mix.

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Hmmmmm. Interesting question. Off the top of my head, my 20 teams would be:

Arsenal

Aston Villa

Blackburn Rovers

Bolton Wanderers

Chelsea

Everton

Leeds United

Liverpool

Manchester City

Manchester United

Middlesbrough

Newcastle United

Nottingham Forest

Sheffield United

Sheffield Wednesday

Sunderland

Tottenham Hotspur

West Bromwich Albion

West Ham United

Wolverhampton Wanderers

Gimme Southampton over West Brom and we are in agreement, though a case can be made for Portsmouth too.

It was a struggle to determine my last couple of slots. Birmingham City, Portsmouth, West Bromwich Albion, West Ham United and Sheffield Wednesday were all in the mix.

Can't argue with that.

It would be interesting to see this list in 10 years.

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Hmmmmm. Interesting question. Off the top of my head, my 20 teams would be:

Arsenal

Aston Villa

Blackburn Rovers

Bolton Wanderers

Chelsea

Everton

Leeds United

Liverpool

Manchester City

Manchester United

Middlesbrough

Newcastle United

Nottingham Forest

Sheffield United

Sheffield Wednesday

Sunderland

Tottenham Hotspur

West Bromwich Albion

West Ham United

Wolverhampton Wanderers

Gimme Southampton over West Brom and we are in agreement, though a case can be made for Portsmouth too.

It was a struggle to determine my last couple of slots. Birmingham City, Portsmouth, West Bromwich Albion, West Ham United and Sheffield Wednesday were all in the mix.

Can't argue with that.

It would be interesting to see this list in 10 years.

If you are gonna have a franchise system, a big question would be how do you run that? If its a money thing, then I think you get a very different list, if its a history thing, how far back do you go? If its a facilities thing then even then you get a different list. And then there is geopgraphy. I would go something like this list as a best fit compromise of those principles:

Arsenal, Aston Villa, Blackburn Rovers, Cardiff City, Chelsea, Everton, Fulham, Leeds United, Leicester City, Liverpool, Manchester City, Manchester United, MK Dons, Newcastle United, Nottingham Forest, Portsmouth, Sunderland, Tottenham Hotspur, West Ham United, Wolverhampton Wanderers.

But the Premier League will never ever ever go for a franchise system.

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I agree it would never happen, but just for the sake of argument...

Here are the criteria the engage Super League (Rugby League) used when they moved to a franchise system this year:

Super League clubs will score a point for each of the following criteria they satisfy:

1. A stadium capacity of at least 12,000;

2. An average crowd of 10,000 or more;

3. An average crowd that fills at least 40% of a club's stadium capacity;

4. A turnover of at least £4 million per annum;

5. Solvency, in accordance with accounting definitions of solvency, although this criterion can be satisfied if there is a written owner's guarantee of the club's debts;

6. A reasonable playing strength, which is likely to be satisfied if the club has finished the season in the top eight in each of the last three years;

7. A reasonable contribution to junior development, judged by the number of scholarships and the performances of the club's under-21 and under-18 Academy teams in the last three years;

8. The stadium meeting the standard of a premier sporting competition, which is judged on the quality and quantity of its facilities in accordance with detailed criteria;

9. Geographical position: clubs that are more than 20 miles away from any other Super League club will be allocated one point on this criterion;

10. Compliance with salary cap regulations. Specifically, clubs must not have incurred any beach of the salary cap in the last three years.

*The above criteria are a guide only at the current time of posting, and are subject to modification and more detailed development at the discretion of the RFL.

Licence categories:

A - 8+ points

B - 5-7 points

C - <4 points

Interesting to think how a similar set of criteria would impact on any Premier League franchise applications.

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But the Premier League will never ever ever go for a franchise system.

I'm not sure on the "never" front. Considering the amount of money a Premiership team goes for nowadays, they may eventually move to a franchise setup to protect the owners' investments.

On 8/1/2010 at 4:01 PM, winters in buffalo said:
You manage to balance agitation with just enough salient points to keep things interesting. Kind of a low-rent DG_Now.
On 1/2/2011 at 9:07 PM, Sodboy13 said:
Today, we are all otaku.

"The city of Peoria was once the site of the largest distillery in the world and later became the site for mass production of penicillin. So it is safe to assume that present-day Peorians are descended from syphilitic boozehounds."-Stephen Colbert

POTD: February 15, 2010, June 20, 2010

The Glorious Bloom State Penguins (NCFAF) 2014: 2-9, 2015: 7-5 (L Pineapple Bowl), 2016: 1-0 (NCFAB) 2014-15: 10-8, 2015-16: 14-5 (SMC Champs, L 1st Round February Frenzy)

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Also with bringing in the Franchise System you'd have to come up with Playoffs and I think it would be the only major league in the World outside of MLS to have a playoffs correct me if I'm wrong but I mean your don't have to bring in the playoffs but If your getting rid of the Relegation battle you should bring in a 6 or 8 team playoff.

 

JETS|PACK|JAYS|NUFC|BAMA|BOMBERS|RAPS|ORANJE|

 

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A lack of relegation may free those smaller teams who would have been battling to stay up the chance to play more attractive, exciting football. As for playoffs, I believe the Champions League acts as the ultimate playoff system, with each countries top league acting as a regional division in much the same way American divisions do.

Though we could go really hypothetical and mention what a European Superleague would consist of...

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To be honest a European Superleague is more likely than a Premier League on a franchise system. There is no way the FA or the Football League would allow the Premier League to start a franchise system. The EPL and football is a world away from Super League RL, I am not even sure that right now the SuperLeague is entirely closed off, with the two new teams this year getting a guaranteed place for (I think it is) 2 years, but I am not sure what happens after that. I'd also agree that a 20 team Franchise based EPL is not workable. What would happen if a team got left behind at the bottom of the league, as Derby did last year? Their crowds would dwindle to nothing after a while.

I could imagine a set of circumstances that see the top clubs in Europe breaking away from their home unions and setting up a seperate European Super League soccer system. Its also highly unlikely, but the big multinational teams like Man United or Real Madrid or Bayern Munich are very very powerful, and if UEFA ran the champions league in a way that ran counter productive to the clubs they might get snotty enough to form there own league. They already have there own organisation to lobby UEFA.

I think the principle of entry into a competition by performance in soccer is entrenched enough to assume that any franchise based system is highly unlikely.

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2011/12 WFL Champions

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But the Premier League will never ever ever go for a franchise system.

I'm not sure on the "never" front. Considering the amount of money a Premiership team goes for nowadays, they may eventually move to a franchise setup to protect the owners' investments.

I'll say it - never. The culture's too set against it.

The only way this would happen is if the Big Four break away from English football altogether to form a variation of the Super League. Which I just don't see happening for political considerations.

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But the Premier League will never ever ever go for a franchise system.

I'm not sure on the "never" front. Considering the amount of money a Premiership team goes for nowadays, they may eventually move to a franchise setup to protect the owners' investments.

I'll say it - never. The culture's too set against it.

The only way this would happen is if the Big Four break away from English football altogether to form a variation of the Super League. Which I just don't see happening for political considerations.

Well...Wouldn't the Premiership breaking away from the Football League's governorship also have flown in the face of the culture?

Never discount the almighty dollar pound sterling.

On 8/1/2010 at 4:01 PM, winters in buffalo said:
You manage to balance agitation with just enough salient points to keep things interesting. Kind of a low-rent DG_Now.
On 1/2/2011 at 9:07 PM, Sodboy13 said:
Today, we are all otaku.

"The city of Peoria was once the site of the largest distillery in the world and later became the site for mass production of penicillin. So it is safe to assume that present-day Peorians are descended from syphilitic boozehounds."-Stephen Colbert

POTD: February 15, 2010, June 20, 2010

The Glorious Bloom State Penguins (NCFAF) 2014: 2-9, 2015: 7-5 (L Pineapple Bowl), 2016: 1-0 (NCFAB) 2014-15: 10-8, 2015-16: 14-5 (SMC Champs, L 1st Round February Frenzy)

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Though we could go really hypothetical and mention what a European Superleague would consist of...

Well, it would depend upon the criteria. Still, based upon history, sustained success, current competitiveness, market size, etcetera, here are some teams - off the top of my head - that I would think warrant membership consideration...

AC Milan

Ajax

Arsenal

Barcelona

Bayern Munich

Celtic

Chelsea

Inter Milan

Juventus

Liverpool

Manchester United

Olympique de Marseille

Paris Saint-Germain

Porto

Rangers

Real Madrid

Sporting CP

Just something to get the debate started.

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But the Premier League will never ever ever go for a franchise system.

I'm not sure on the "never" front. Considering the amount of money a Premiership team goes for nowadays, they may eventually move to a franchise setup to protect the owners' investments.

I'll say it - never. The culture's too set against it.

The only way this would happen is if the Big Four break away from English football altogether to form a variation of the Super League. Which I just don't see happening for political considerations.

Well...Wouldn't the Premiership breaking away from the Football League's governorship also have flown in the face of the culture?

Never discount the almighty dollar pound sterling.

The breakaway from the Football League was very controversial and very painful. There were some moves early on to make the Premier League a closed shop, but that was quickly abandoned. Yes the top clubs are very powerful, but they have no vested interested in making it a franchise based closed shop. Some of the middle of the road teams might have a vested interest in protecting there place in the EPL, but they aren't as powerful as the very top clubs.

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2011/12 WFL Champions

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Exactly.

The Prem breaking away from the Football League showed how strong the culture really is - not even the largest and wealthiest clubs could change the essential nature of English football.

They got reduced television revenue sharing (split amongst the 20 Prem clubs and not all 92 Football League clubs), but other than that there isn't a whole lot of difference between the old First Division from the fan's perspective. They're still the top tier of English football, there's still promotion from and relegation to the next level of English football.

Heck, of the 20 clubs involved in the split, only seven have stayed in the top flight every year since. That shows how fluid the system really is.

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Out of curiosity...since the establishment of the Premiership, how many top-level teams in English football have changed ownership? I'm especially interested in the number of teams that are now owned by foreign interests.

On 8/1/2010 at 4:01 PM, winters in buffalo said:
You manage to balance agitation with just enough salient points to keep things interesting. Kind of a low-rent DG_Now.
On 1/2/2011 at 9:07 PM, Sodboy13 said:
Today, we are all otaku.

"The city of Peoria was once the site of the largest distillery in the world and later became the site for mass production of penicillin. So it is safe to assume that present-day Peorians are descended from syphilitic boozehounds."-Stephen Colbert

POTD: February 15, 2010, June 20, 2010

The Glorious Bloom State Penguins (NCFAF) 2014: 2-9, 2015: 7-5 (L Pineapple Bowl), 2016: 1-0 (NCFAB) 2014-15: 10-8, 2015-16: 14-5 (SMC Champs, L 1st Round February Frenzy)

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You mean of the seven which have stayed up the whole time?

Arsenal, Aston Villa, Chelsea, Everton, Liverpool, Manchester United, and Tottenham Hotspur are the seven, and they've all changed hands to a certain extent since the formation of the Premier League.

Arsenal is owned by a holding company which has had significant foreign investment in recent years, but not enough for outright control. Everton and Spurs were bought by British concerns. Controlling interest in the rest is owned by foreign groups, including a surprising number of Americans.

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current ownership in the Premiership is

Arsenal- Significant foreign shareholders, (Russia and USA), but I think I am right that the majority of the ownership is still UK (though that may not be true for much longer, Stan Kroenke upped his shareholding today)

Aston Villa- US owned (Randy Lerner)

Blackburn Rovers- UK owned

Bolton Wanderers- UK Owned

Chelsea- Russian owned

Everton- UK Owned

Fulham- Egyptian owned

Hull City- UK owned

Liverpool- US owned

Manchester City- UAE owned

Manchester United- US owned

Middlesbrough- UK owned

Newcastle United- UK owned

Portsmouth- Russian owned

Stoke City- UK owned

Sunderland- Irish/US owned

Tottenham Hostpur- UK owned (but with significant US investment)

West Bromwich Albion- UK owned

West Ham United- Icelandic ownership

Wigan Athletic- UK owned

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2011/12 WFL Champions

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