Back In The Game?

[Lee.]

This is why, as a Pheonix fan, that this is so hypocritical; they ask for Phoenix, Carolina, Atlanta, etc, but thou shall not harm the Kings, Sharks, Stars, Blues, etc.

1. The Kings run the Staples Centre, they're fine. If they've been in no danger of relocation for 42 years, they're in no danger now.

2. The Sharks have a huge fanbase and are in no danger.

3. See #2

4. The Blues are back, this year, anyway; also, 42 years, no danger, etc.

[SenatorJake]

If Balsillie wants to move the Coyotes to Southern Ontario, that idiot commissioner Bettman should step aside & let it happen. I'm not Canadian, but why do I feel that he has an anti-Canadian bias. If Balsillie wanted to move the team to Kansas City or another US city, Bettman wouldn't try to stop it. I also don't buy Bettman's statement "We fix the problems we don't run out on cities" REALLY?! Ask Quebec, Hartford, & Winnipeg. While I think that the NHL would benifit with more teams in Canada, there are US markets that would make great hockey markets: Kansas City, Houston, Milwaukee, Salt Lake City, Seattle, Portland OR., etc. I would have included Cleveland, but Ohio already has a team (Columbus Blue Jackets)

Should the Coyotes happen to move to Southern Ontario, that would mean that one of the existing Eastern Conference teams will have to move to the Western Conference (most likely Pittsburgh would be that team)

Possible NHL realignment

Eastern Conference

Northeast - Hamilton (PHX), MTL, OTT, TOR, BUF

Atlantic - BOS, PHI, NYR, NYI, NJ

Southeast - WSH, TB, FLA, CAR, ATL

Western Conference

Central - PIT, CHI, DET, CLB, STL

Northwest - COL, MIN, EDM, CGY, VAN

Pacific - DAL, NSH, LA, ANA, SJ

That's my 2 cents

The only way to fix those problems involves having a working human cloning machine to double the population of those markets. There were fundamental issues with those markets that cannot be corrected no matter how much time and effort is put into it. Phoenix is, with admittedly a lot of work, correctable. Atlanta is correctable. Nashville is correctable.

Also...Pittsburgh to the Western Conference is a nonstarter. As is Nashville to the Pacific Division.

Seattle might work if only you could fit both a NHL rink and a decent amount of fans into the arena.

Do you work for Gary Bettman's radio show? Newsflash: 95 % of people in Phoenix and Atlanta don't even know they have a hockey team.

I'm guessing your definition of "95% of people" in Orange County don't give two flips about the Ducks. And yet...

Let's try this:

Phoenix is hanging by a thread at this point. It will take an owner committed to both immediate winning and to the market itself (Reinsdorf?) to keep the Coyotes around past 2010.

Atlanta is a city that doesn't care enough about any of its sports franchises to show up until they're in the second round of the playoffs. Waddell is killing any hope for this franchise to resuscitate. He goes, someone competent comes in, people will pay attention, and the money will come in.

These two markets are not dead issues by virtue of their latitudes alone.

I'm sorry but with a 30 team league, the years where Atlanta will make it to the playoffs, let alone the second round, may be few and far between. If they can't accept that, the team won't survive.

[BigMac12]

This is why, as a Pheonix fan, that this is so hypocritical; they ask for Phoenix, Carolina, Atlanta, etc, but thou shall not harm the Kings, Sharks, Stars, Blues, etc.

1. The Kings run the Staples Centre, they're fine. If they've been in no danger of relocation for 42 years, they're in no danger now.

2. The Sharks have a huge fanbase and are in no danger.

3. See #2

4. The Blues are back, this year, anyway; also, 42 years, no danger, etc.

Yet all those teams are technically in the Sunbelt.

See what I mean? You have one standard for the Sharks, Stars, etc, and another for the Coyotes, Hurricanes, etc.

The last thing I'll say on this matter is the hypcrasy shown on the southern teams are as bad as the world's treatment of Israel.

(I won't post on this tread again.)

[Sodboy13]

I'm sorry but with a 30 team league the years where Atlanta will make it to the playoffs, let alone the second round, may be few and far between. If they can't accept that, the team won't survive.

Lots of teams, even warm-climate teams, make playoff appearances consistently, even in the 30-team era. Assuming the arrival of a front office that knows how to draft and acquire talent, what would hold Atlanta back?

[DallasSports]

This is why, as a Pheonix fan, that this is so hypocritical; they ask for Phoenix, Carolina, Atlanta, etc, but thou shall not harm the Kings, Sharks, Stars, Blues, etc.

All of those markets you mentioned have done well with an NHL franchise. You're underestimating their popularity. Nobody, and I mean nobody is going to miss the Coyotes if they move. Aside from you, I guess.

The fact that Bettman and the NHL is trying to keep the team in Phoenix is just absolutely ridiculous. Let's face it, Arizona is not a hockey market. It doesn't help that the team hasn't done crap at all. Of course Bettman wants there to be as much U.S. teams as possible.

With a move to Hamilton, they'll receive loads more fans and attention. Bettman says the reason he wants to keep the team in Phoenix is because of the fans... what a damn lie. Yes, don't want to disappoint all 3 of their fans!

Yet all those teams are technically in the Sunbelt.

See what I mean? You have one standard for the Sharks, Stars, etc, and another for the Coyotes, Hurricanes, etc.

The last thing I'll say on this matter is the hypcrasy shown on the southern teams are as bad as the world's treatment of Israel.

(I won't post on this tread again.)

Yet all those teams technically have more fan support. There's a reason the Coyotes are bankrupt.

[SenatorJake]

I'm sorry but with a 30 team league the years where Atlanta will make it to the playoffs, let alone the second round, may be few and far between. If they can't accept that, the team won't survive.

Lots of teams, even warm-climate teams, make playoff appearances consistently, even in the 30-team era. Assuming the arrival of a front office that knows how to draft and acquire talent, what would hold Atlanta back?

3 other major sports in town (Not to mention college sports which also outrank hockey in the majority of the USA). A general lack of interest by the majority of the population in the game of hockey. The lack of media coverage for the team. A long history of being non-factors in the NHL.

That... and Patrik Stefan.

[ferrousoxide66]

This is why, as a Pheonix fan, that this is so hypocritical; they ask for Phoenix, Carolina, Atlanta, etc, but thou shall not harm the Kings, Sharks, Stars, Blues, etc.

1. The Kings run the Staples Centre, they're fine. If they've been in no danger of relocation for 42 years, they're in no danger now.

2. The Sharks have a huge fanbase and are in no danger.

3. See #2

4. The Blues are back, this year, anyway; also, 42 years, no danger, etc.

Yet all those teams are technically in the Sunbelt.

See what I mean? You have one standard for the Sharks, Stars, etc, and another for the Coyotes, Hurricanes, etc.

The last thing I'll say on this matter is the hypcrasy shown on the southern teams are as bad as the world's treatment of Israel.

(I won't post on this tread again.)

I don't think anyone's ever said that the Carolina franchise made a blunder moving to NC. The fanbase has been rabid.

Phoenix, fair or not, just gives the impression of not really giving a damn about the team. Having the arena out in the sticks, surrounded by a lovely maze of interstate, helps NOT.

[Sodboy13]

I'm sorry but with a 30 team league the years where Atlanta will make it to the playoffs, let alone the second round, may be few and far between. If they can't accept that, the team won't survive.

Lots of teams, even warm-climate teams, make playoff appearances consistently, even in the 30-team era. Assuming the arrival of a front office that knows how to draft and acquire talent, what would hold Atlanta back?

3 other major sports in town (Not to mention college sports which also outrank hockey in the majority of the USA). A general lack of interest by the majority of the population in the game of hockey. The lack of media coverage for the team. A long history of being non-factors in the NHL.

That... and Patrik Stefan.

Explain how the Yellow Jackets, Braves, and Falcons keep the Thrashers out of playoff contention.

[SenatorJake]

I'm sorry but with a 30 team league the years where Atlanta will make it to the playoffs, let alone the second round, may be few and far between. If they can't accept that, the team won't survive.

Lots of teams, even warm-climate teams, make playoff appearances consistently, even in the 30-team era. Assuming the arrival of a front office that knows how to draft and acquire talent, what would hold Atlanta back?

3 other major sports in town (Not to mention college sports which also outrank hockey in the majority of the USA). A general lack of interest by the majority of the population in the game of hockey. The lack of media coverage for the team. A long history of being non-factors in the NHL.

That... and Patrik Stefan.

Explain how the Yellow Jackets, Braves, and Falcons keep the Thrashers out of playoff contention.

They don't keep the Thrashers out of playoff contention, they prevent people from actually showing up to the games. It's a very crowded city sports-wise with very little interest for hockey. That is only one of the factors holding the Thrahers back from being an economically viable franchise.

[dfwabel]

You are acting as if Bettman is the only responsible for the ills of the NHL. An analogy is to blame the PM/President for all legislation, while it was Paraliment/Congress who introduce and pass most everything. The court hearing is going on now, but in the previous 4 pages I did not see the following information which I read from fieldsofschemes.com today mainly that before a scheduled meeting with Bettman, team owner Jerry Moyes filed for bankruptcy, reportedly without bothering to notify the NHL. How is that his fault?

Also, you talk about the versus contract, but failed to mention that 1988-92 move to SportsChannel. That did a lot of good as San Jose, Tampa, Florida, Anaheim, and Ottawa entered or awarded teams the league under Zeigler and Gil Stein as NHL President. They (and the owners/Board of Governors) went for the money and Bettman inherited part of the mess.

[kiwi_canadian]

This is why, as a Pheonix fan, that this is so hypocritical; they ask for Phoenix, Carolina, Atlanta, etc, but thou shall not harm the Kings, Sharks, Stars, Blues, etc.

1. The Kings run the Staples Centre, they're fine. If they've been in no danger of relocation for 42 years, they're in no danger now.

2. The Sharks have a huge fanbase and are in no danger.

3. See #2

4. The Blues are back, this year, anyway; also, 42 years, no danger, etc.

Not to mention a large amount of Canadians in the area who support the team. The same goes for LA as well.

The only problem I see with the NHL is Bettman. They need to get rid of him. Look at his track record. I believe this is the 4th team under him that has had to file for bankruptcy. (Ottawa and Buffalo in 2003, and the entire Nashville saga) And lets not forget about the 2 strikes he has been involved with as well. He expended/relocated into markets where hockey has never, in the general population, been heard of and has never done anything in the fan's interest. He's all about this revenue sharing crap yet he doesn't want to move to places that will bring in the money that allow for that revenue to be brought in to share. (with the exception being the Wild the only smart expansion on his part)

Bottom line, get rid of Bettman. I mean the fact that he is booed every time he comes onto the ice to present the Stanley Cup shows that he is VERY unpopular among the hockey community...yet he doesn't seem to care.

[Linus]

If your being sarcastic by saying they did alot of good, please explain how Ottawa and San Jose are bad? San Jose and Ottawa have a great fan base.

[The_Admiral]

Rams80 is being unnecessarily contrarian, I feel.

[dfwabel]

If your being sarcastic by saying they did alot of good, please explain how Ottawa and San Jose are bad? San Jose and Ottawa have a great fan base.

I was not talking in terms of fan base(s), I was attempting to mention that there were as many teams which were added under the last years of Zeigler and Stein, than from under Bettman. Zeigler had big expansion and some relocation under his tenure, plus a strike and times with no large US TV penetration. Bettman has had four expansion teams and four relocations with two lockouts. In addition, I wanted this thread to have the initial leave from ESPN to a smaller cable outlet mentioned.

Here is more information which I have not seen here.

1-During the past three years, the team's ticket sales have totaled 41 percent to 43 percent of total revenue. A typical NHL team generates at least one-half of its total revenue from gate receipts. The average ticket price for the Coyotes was $37.45, $12.21 below the NHL average.

2-The team's arena-management arm, which runs concerts and other events at Jobing.com Arena, lost $20.1 million during those three fiscal years.

3-Wayne Gretzky, also a minority owner, will receive $22.5 million if the sale goes through. A change in ownership allows Gretzky to sever his ties, but he has a guaranteed coaching contract that pays him $6.5 million next season and $8 million the following year. He also is owed $8 million in deferred compensation.

4-The team lost about $73 million during the three previous fiscal years, the last one ending June 30.

(credit: The Arizona Republic)

"rams80" did mention the court filing on page 9. My apologies.

[The_Admiral]

St. Louis is not the Sun Belt, you goof.

the hypcrasy shown on the southern teams are as bad as the world's treatment of Israel.

Oh, shut up.

[DarkJourney]

I remember way back in the late 80's/early 90's Ziegler announced the NHL would embark on a 7 team expansion over a 10 year period or something. Milwaukee & Seattle were actually going to be the first 2 cities to join but the ownership groups backed out.

After some investigating here is an artice from the Seattle Times in 1990:

Hockey Night ... In Seattle? -- NHL Moving Closer To Expansion In 1992-93

By Bob Finnigan

By the time the Thunderbirds return from their two-week road trip across the Canadian prairies, they may not be the only hockey team in Seattle.

There is no telling how fast events may move, but this week in Chicago, the National Hockey League will establish criteria for expansion. Seattle is mentioned along with San Jose and Milwaukee in the first wave of expansion for the 1992-93 season. Cities listed among the next wave include Atlanta, Tampa, Dallas, Phoenix, San Diego and Anaheim. And in Canada, they're talking about Hamilton, Ontario, and Ottawa.

It may be an exaggeration to suggest a Seattle bidder could lock up a franchise by March 1. Seattle's prospects depend on someone putting up a $50 million expansion fee and a 16,000-seat arena.

Three or four parties are rumored to be interested in bringing the NHL to the Pacific Northwest. Bill Yuill, owner of the T-birds, is

the only one to go public.

``We're interested,'' said Yuill, who once bid $45 million to buy the NHL's New Jersey Devils. ``But we'll couch our interest by saying we want to see what we get for our money. $50 million may be too much if the deal isn't right.''

Apparently SuperSonics ownner Barry Ackerley and David Sabey, who bid for the Mariners, are not interested.

Sabey spokeswoman Gretchen Hannah said her boss might be interested in five or 10 years. ``But right now, Mr. Sabey has so many things going on,'' she said. ``People do think of him because of his interest in promoting sports in Seattle, but he has no interest in an NHL franchise right now.''

Ackerley's situation is not as clear. Bob Whitsitt, who runs the Sonics for Ackerley, said the only interest from their side right now was the effort to promote building a new arena.

``We are not really in that loop right now,'' Whitsitt said. ``But we think we could get into that loop fairly quickly if we wanted to.

``What we are concentrating on is getting a building built. And if we do, it will satisfy all the NHL's criteria. But why would we start discussions about buying a hockey team when we are focussing on an arena?''

Whitsitt said he had heard the rumors of groups expressing interest in bringing an NHL franchise here.

``But it's one thing to talk about spending $50 million or more, and it's another thing entirely to write out a check for that much,'' Whitsiit said. ``It's a lot of money, especially for an expansion team in a market where there is something else going on.''

Ackerley said in December - when NHL governors voted to permit expansion to as many as seven sites during the 1990s - that he ``had not even thought about the NHL in years.'' Of course, he also said then that he had ``pretty much given up the idea of building a new arena.''

Last March, Ackerley was thinking of the NHL. When Pat Schroeder of Auburn kept writing of possible NHL expansion to Seattle in his hockey newsletter, the Blueline Bulletin, at least one Ackerley employee asked him to stop supporting a pending resolution by Rep. Roy A. Ferguson and Rep. Marilyn Rasmussen expressing support for NHL expansion to the Puget Sound area.

``Laurie Giesen, director of community relations for Ackerley Communications, contacted me in Chicago and asked me to do what I could to kill the pending measure,'' Schroeder said. ``But she would give me no reason. I refused.

``She then asked that I not mention Barry Ackerley in relation to NHL expansion. I complied with her request.''

Schroeder later testified at hearings before the state committee on Trade and Economic Development.

``The following week I was invited to meet with Ms. Giesen at her office in the Seafirst Building,'' he said. ``At that time she again asked that I try to kill the pending resolution (which had been endorsed by the committee and passed on to the legislature). I again declined.

``She then asked me to quit publishing the Blueline Bulletin. She implied that the publicity would hurt Seattle's chances for an NHL expansion award, but she would not be specific. When I refused to quit, she again asked me to stop writing about NHL expansion issues. I refused again and the meeting ended.''

Ackerley is out of town and did not return phone calls. However, Giesen's recollection of her conversations with Schroeder varied from that of Schroeder.

``I did talk to Pat but did not

T-birds owner Bill Yuill

seek to have him help us kill the bill,'' she said. ``I did ask him not to associate Barry Ackerley with NHL expansion and the reason for that is academic. Without a building, there could be no NHL expansion to Seattle.''

She added that she did not ask Schroeder to stop publication of his newsletter. ``I did mention that it was naive to think that articles like the one Pat wrote would do much to secure an NHL team for Seattle. But it would have been naive of me to ask him to stop publication.''

Meanwhile, the state legislature voted unanimously to support the resolution and Seattle continued to be prominent in NHL expansion stories, before and since league governors gave near unanimous (voting 20-1, only Toronto against) approval to expanding.

However, considering that the NBA charged $32 million to four new franchises two years ago and an existing NHL club, the Quebec Nordiques, sold for $15 million at the same time, the $50 million fee to join the club seemed high.

``It seemed very high,'' Yuill said. ``But it depends on what you get for your money. If they include you in the TV revenue and give you reasonable draft picks, maybe it can work if you can negotiate a good deal in your building.''

High, maybe. But the $50 million figure is firm.

``They didn't just pull it out of thin air,'' said Brian Burke, president of the Vancouver Canucks. ``The Hartford Whalers sold for $36 million, only part of the ownership, too. Perhaps the $50 million is more realistic for bigger markets, but it's a solid figure.''

Howard Baldwin, who sold the Whalers' majority ownership in 1988 and now is pushing for an NHL team in San Jose, said, ``They're not forcing anyone to pay it. We're all big boys and the price doesn't scare me.''

According to an official of an East Coast NHL team, the $50 million asking price was put out to see how many bidders would respond. ``They wanted to see how many were able and willing to come up with that much. If enough do, they may even bump it from there, the $50 million may be a minimum.''

Yuill said one NHL official mentioned the possibility of a $70 million entrance fee from three new teams. ``That comes to $210 million total,'' he said, ``a nice, round $10 million for each existing NHL team.''

NHL critics allege the league is money-hungry, and point to the three-year, $51 million television contract with SportsChannel America prior to the 1988-89 season. The NHL turned down ESPN's offer of $40 million and gave up much wider exposure on the bigger cable network.

In addition, the franchise fee may be to make the existing teams apparently worth more.

Yuill said his accountants had ``run the numbers a couple of times.'' He also said that ``some of the existing teams might have trouble existing under those conditions. You've got to be given a chance to turn a positive cash flow some time in the foreseeable future. As I said, we'll reserve the right to wait and see.''

[DarkJourney]

The North Stars could have stayed in Minnesota and shared the Target Center with the T'Wolves.

[Linus]

Bigmac21: You have no case in any argument you make. Please explain how teams like Dallas, St. Louis, Carolina, San Jose and LA are in trouble? THERE NOT. Plain and simply.

Give your head a shake, wake up and realise that Phoenix isnt working.

Stop being so stubborn because your from the area and you hate the fact that your "hockey market" is failing and will continue to fail if things stay the way they are now.

[SenatorJake]

I remember way back in the late 80's/early 90's Ziegler announced the NHL would embark on a 7 team expansion over a 10 year period or something. Milwaukee & Seattle were actually going to be the first 2 cities to join but the ownership groups backed out.

This led to Ottawa recieveing an NHL team. Even though I think those 2 cities could be viable markets for the NHL, I'm glad they did not recieve a team in 1992. Oh nostalgia.

[TAFKAK]

There's so many uninformed and stupid opinions in this thread that I'm not even going to wade into it to begin to debunk it.

Let's just say a lot of you need to do a lot of research before you go about asking for teams to be contracted.