Back In The Game?

[DallasSports]

Houston always gets overlooked. 6th most populous metropolitan area (soon to be 5th, larger than Philadelphia), currently the fastest growing city, largest metro area without a team, a team could settle in the Toyota Center (also home of the Rockets), and a stable economy. Sports teams in Texas always get supported well. A team in Houston could not possibly be worse than Atlanta, Nashville, Phoenix, or Miami.

Of course, the "Texas isn't a hockey market" arguement will arise, despite the success of the Stars.

[The_Admiral]

I just can't get jazzed about Phoenix. I need my tetraseasonal rhythm and deciduous trees. If I get sick of the cold, I'll move to Florida.

Shoveling my driveway makes me proud to be a hockey fan.

[gorams1]

Now let me give you a view from this side of town....

Being a Sabres fan, the last thing I want is a team in Hamilton. Some estimates put the percentage of our season ticket holders who come from Southern Ontario at around 20%. I don't think it is quite that high but regardless the Sabres do have a strong following in SO since our media markets overlap. The Sabres survive on a very thin line between profit and loss, a team that close could cut into that.

I have heard reports that Balsille may actually prefer to go to a suburb North of Toronto (sorry I don't recall the name off the top of my mind) rather than Hamilton. I think this is a great alternative (for us at least) since Toronto shouldn't have any problem supporting two teams. If NY can support three (well 2.5, the Islanders are actually on a lot of short lists when contraction is discussed) TO can support 2.

My first choice would also be Winnipeg though, Even as an American I HATED when the Jets and Nordiques moved. I loved when there were 21 teams and 7 were in Canada. It seemed like a perfect mix of US-Canadian Teams.

No matter where the Coyotes move, IF it's in Canada they should consider the name JETS, as long as it doesn't offend the faithful in Winnipeg it would be nice to see the JETS back in the NHL in some form.

As a Sabre fan myself, I agree with you 100%. I've been leery of this whole Hamilton thing for awhile now. I'd love to see a another team in Canada, but not at the expense of a great market like Buffalo. Now THAT'S "Hockeytown USA". Now, as a Winnipegger, if there is an NHL team called the Jets, it better damn be in Winnipeg. There would be rioting in the cold frigid streets if it were anywhere else...

So, I propose that the Coyotes move to Winnipeg.

We could use something like this for a logo:

What do you think?

GO JETS GO

[ksupilot]

God I would love for the Jets to return.

This idea isn't too bad either:

But if they go to Hamilton, they should go with Tigers.

[Linus]

Shoveling my driveway makes me proud to be a hockey fan.

Well said.

I like that.

[habsfan1]

But if they go to Hamilton, they should go with Tigers.

No, they need to distance themselves from the Tiger Cats as much as possible. The names would be too similar. I would even try to avoid going with a Black & Yellow color scheme to get rid of unnessasary critisism about how they ripped off the Bruins.

[dfwabel]

I would argue that the trend of American cities building sports pleasure palaces may be coming to an end. There has been a fairly pronounced backlash against them in the last few years, and that trend will likely only grow as the recession continues.

What about when the arena's in Sunrise, FL/Glendale, AZ/Atlanta, GA/Nashville, TN get too old? Will local government invest a ton of cash to rebuild an arena for a team nobody goes to see? I doubt it. In 10-15 years, there will be newer arenas and those old arenas in the cities I mentioned will have lost their lustre. The NHL southern expirement will eventually be outed as the failure it has been.

Facilities aside, there still are increasing populations in the southern and western US, as opposed to the north. There are many factors outside of climate, like little union influence, lower tax base, and lower real estate costs. You are from Canada, so you may not know the changing demographics of the US. I will give Zeigler credit as he knew where people where moving to (and it wasn't Saskatoon).

This thought is that the expanding populations will have the income to watch the NHL and place their kids in junior programs. Honestly, I do not know what PHX has, but the Bay Area has build quality youth teams and Dallas has as well. The problem is that with lower taxes and non-union shops, is that employers offer lower wages. The cost to see an NHL game is still high as they need more money from their live gate to be profitable as opposed to the other three (NFL,NBA,MLB).

And why should a city be responsible to build a facility for an owner who can sell his/her team for much more then when they build it when the city have to take it in the a$$ on all facility income. Especially since arenas are normally vacant 50% of a year. Why? How many events does Corel Centre have a year and if the MTS Centre replaces the Moose with a NHL team, how many other days can they fill? Jobing.com Arena fails since there is another facility in downtown PHX which is closer to Sky Harbor airport, a convention center, hotels, and has better parking (believe it or not). Location is just part of it as you can look at the new Cowboys Stadium and see their problems in filling non-sport dates; some of their concert choices (the non-country ones) this summer are questionable.

There I will disagree, outside of hockey Jobing.com Arena is the premeire venue to go to for concerts, where there are more people want to go there for events and concerts and are willing to book them in advanced because it is a great place to go to, and has won the best concert venue twice since it has opened, and while Westgate is young, they are building a convention center and will have 2 more hotels. Jobing.com is not a fail as a whole, great place to go to for whatever and the Westgate City Center is considered outside the Los Angeles hot spot as the best place to go to in the southwest.

The bond newspaper talked about the Coyotes filing:

City of Glendale out cold?

I cannot cut/paste the story, but those who really care will look at BondBuyer to read more than what most of you typically here. Who (or which city) will buy bonds now ot construct an new facility?

[STL FANATIC]

This is just repeating what's already been said, but here's my take for staying in Phoenix.

A successful Phoenix market would be huge for the NHL. There is so much to gain from that enormous market. There is little to gain from another Canadian market.

Phoenix has already shown it's ability to support and care for a well-run, competitive franchise. It's not as though the fan support has always been lacking.

Four things are currently holding Phoenix back.

1. A bad hockey product.

2. An owner without the means to pay competitive salaries.

3. A terrible, terrible arena lease.

4. A less than ideal arena location.

None of those four problems have anything to do with the Phoenix population, and of the four, only the last one is not correctable. It can, however, be easily overcome with the correction of the other three problems.

So with all of those things in mind, why would you abandon the market now?

The young talent is already in place in Phoenix. A little bit more of it along with a couple of key veterans, and the team could quickly become competitive.

A new owner is obviously on the agenda. Find a good one, and suddenly the signing of the previously mentioned key veterans becomes very possible.

It is seeming more and more likely that a new lease will be worked out with the city of Glendale. In fact, I think if the team stays (and I think that's already likely), then a new lease will be a given.

Suddenly you've fixed three problems, and the fans will follow.

There's no reason to give up on such a key market right now.

[TBGKon]

As one from southern Utah, with the Coyotes being the nearest team, I am kind of sad that they could very well be leaving, but I think there needs to be more Canadian teams in the NHL. I'd personally want the Coyotes to move to another western U.S. city (if they must leave Phoenix), such as Portland, Las Vegas (might as well as the city has no other major pro sports and the league is "eyeing" them and Vegas is in the same region as Phoenix--you could even keep the name), or Salt Lake City.

That said, Hamilton is a deserving city for an NHL team because it has a history in the league and hockey is the national sport in Canada. Why deny a city with a lot of potenial just because it's not an American city? The only thing I can agree with Bettman on is that he won't let a team move unless it's a "last resort" (unlike the NBA in the Sonics case), but I do think that some relocations are necessary in N.A. sports, and at least 2 or 3 of the "Sun Belt" teams in the NHL need to move, and Phoenix is certainly a borderline Sun Belt city in my book.

For the record, here's my opinion on the Sun Belt cties and their viability:

Stable

--Dallas (r.i.p. North Stars)

--Tampa Bay

--Carolina (r.i.p. Whalers)

--San Jose

--Anahiem

--Los Angeles (the original Sun Belt city)

Borderline:

--Phoenix

--Nashville

Unstable

--Atlanta

--Florida

I pretty much agree with the list, but Tampa Bay is hovering between Stable and Borderline. In recent months ownership has been doing many things to help with costs, including charging employees a monthly fee to park their cars in team owned lots, many layoffs in many departments, and as of yesterday they've announced they're looking for possible investors for the team. I don't think they're going to threaten relocation, but it seems like they're having a tough time.

I don't know where to attribute the blame, but yes the economy does suck, but where were the problems when Palace Sports (Detroit Pistons, Bill Davidson) owned the team. Ever since Day 1, I never like these guys. The are reports saying former Wild GM Jacques Lemaire wants to come back East, and he does have a home about an hour south of Tampa. I guess anything is possible.

[Your Name Here]

I'll go with Hamilton Flying Pigs since this is never going to happen.

[dfwabel]

Today, I think that you are wrong on the last two because the team should have known what they were getting into BEFORE signing the lease. If that is the case, than more Arizona residents should ask for mortgage help as things did not go as they expected. All investments do not increase...sorry. At least a private company, which the NHL did not operate did not do enough to beat the competition to have other concerts. Too bad! The team signed the lease by themselves to operate the facility and did a poor job in getting events over US Airways Arena. The owners knew what they were going into and failed to be a privately owned corporation which beat

My bad... Suze Ormon would buy these bonds!

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/outing-suze-ormans-investment-portfolio/story.aspx?guid=%7B6F038CB3-5152-4C73-831E-AB9D431F54C3%7D

Orman estimated her liquid net worth at about $25 million, with another $7 million worth of houses. With just $1 million of that in stocks, it means that just 4% of her liquid net worth is in the stock market.

What does Orman do with the rest of her money? Solomon asked, and was told: "Save it and build it in municipal bonds. I buy zero-coupon municipal bonds, and all the bonds I buy are triple-A-rated and insured so that even if the city goes under, I get my money. I take a little lower interest rate to make sure my bonds are 100 percent safe and sound. "

[rams80]

Shoveling my driveway makes me proud to be a hockey fan.

It also makes my back sore and reduces my enjoyment of winter. In fact, I can pin down when precisely in my childhood snow stopped being "cool" and "fun." It was the winter that shoveling the driveway and walk became my responsibility.

Personally, the regularity or irregularity of my having to shovel out my car has zero bearing on my ability to be a hockey fan. The only thing shoveling impacts is my desire for global warming to hurry the up and remove my need to perform this activity.

And forever destroy the idea that you can only appreciate hockey by playing it on frozen ponds when young as espoused by the more fervent and possibly xenophobic Canuckistani hockey "fans".

[josh_cat_eyes]

Here is my 2 cents. I recently wrote an essay for my English class on Winnipeg needing an NHL team. If anyone would like to read it I can post a link or something. I did lots of research and yes, I team in Winnipeg would work. So would I team in Hamilton, Milwaukee, Salt Lake City, Seattle, Portland, Kansas City, Saskatchewan, Quebec and Hartford. Hockey is a niche sport and you can't force it upon someone. They either like it or not. This is why the NHL DOES NOT work in the south. Florida, Atlanta, Phoenix, Nashville and the New York Islanders should all be moved. Tampa will likely fail soon, so I will add them to the list too. The Islanders I see as a market that did not grow with the times. It no longer can support a team. Even though the team sucks, and even though they have a crappy arena, they still can't even get a bad sized crowd, they are just plain HORRIBLE.

Phoenix to Winnipeg.

Don't even bother arguing for the sake of the team because face it, why are they bankrupt?? Nuff said.

New York to Kansas City

Charles Wang plans on doing this anyway if the "Lighthouse Project" doesn't go through. And I think its safe to say that you can count on it not going through. Again, Nuff said.

Tampa Bay to Quebec

The Bolts started to do good after they won the cup, but the lockout didn't help them any. They are still living off of the "post championship buzz" but it's starting to wear off. Having a bad team this year didn't really help either. Eventually the team will have to sell and then it can move. With Lecavilier and St. Louis both being Quebec natives, this should help draw some fans in. Like I said, I team will work here because hockey is a niche sport and Quebec citizens love their hockey, and if you give them a second chance, trust me, they will not blow it.

Thats just a couple of the teams. If somebody wants, I can give reasons for any team to move, I just am tired right now and don't want to list a bunch of reasons for every team. Anyway, here is my proposal:

Toronto Hamilton Ottawa Montreal Quebec

Boston New York New Jersey Buffalo Harford

Philadelphia Pittsburgh Washington Columbus Carolina

Vancouver Calgary Edmonton Saskatchewan Winnipeg

Chicago Detroit Minnesota St. Louis Milwaukee

San Jose Los Angeles Colorado Dallas Kansas City

I may think about that and add in a couple expansion teams, because I think that the hockey market has grown enough for that too. Another story for another time though.

[Joshawaggie]

Here is my 2 cents. I recently wrote an essay for my English class on Winnipeg needing an NHL team. If anyone would like to read it I can post a link or something. I did lots of research and yes, I team in Winnipeg would work. So would I team in Hamilton, Milwaukee, Salt Lake City, Seattle, Portland, Kansas City, Saskatchewan, Quebec and Hartford. Hockey is a niche sport and you can't force it upon someone. They either like it or not. This is why the NHL DOES NOT work in the south. Florida, Atlanta, Phoenix, Nashville and the New York Islanders should all be moved. Tampa will likely fail soon, so I will add them to the list too. The Islanders I see as a market that did not grow with the times. It no longer can support a team. Even though the team sucks, and even though they have a crappy arena, they still can't even get a bad sized crowd, they are just plain HORRIBLE.

Phoenix to Winnipeg.

Don't even bother arguing for the sake of the team because face it, why are they bankrupt?? Nuff said.

New York to Kansas City

Charles Wang plans on doing this anyway if the "Lighthouse Project" doesn't go through. And I think its safe to say that you can count on it not going through. Again, Nuff said.

Tampa Bay to Quebec

The Bolts started to do good after they won the cup, but the lockout didn't help them any. They are still living off of the "post championship buzz" but it's starting to wear off. Having a bad team this year didn't really help either. Eventually the team will have to sell and then it can move. With Lecavilier and St. Louis both being Quebec natives, this should help draw some fans in. Like I said, I team will work here because hockey is a niche sport and Quebec citizens love their hockey, and if you give them a second chance, trust me, they will not blow it.

Thats just a couple of the teams. If somebody wants, I can give reasons for any team to move, I just am tired right now and don't want to list a bunch of reasons for every team. Anyway, here is my proposal:

Toronto Hamilton Ottawa Montreal Quebec

Boston New York New Jersey Buffalo Harford

Philadelphia Pittsburgh Washington Columbus Carolina

Vancouver Calgary Edmonton Saskatchewan Winnipeg

Chicago Detroit Minnesota St. Louis Milwaukee

San Jose Los Angeles Colorado Dallas Kansas City

I may think about that and add in a couple expansion teams, because I think that the hockey market has grown enough for that too. Another story for another time though.

You say this statement, meaning the entire south, yet plan to locate the Islanders to Kansas City.

[HedleyLamarr]

If you're gonna put hockey somewhere, why put it in an already saturated hockey market? You're not going to grow the game in an area that is already crazy about hockey, and has several teams to root for

So... Devils to Kansas City then John?

What *several* teams to root for? Kitchener/Waterloo/Hamilton is Leafs and Leafs only... sure you could argue the Sabres are an option, maybe even the Red Wings, but it is a very small amount of people that are willing to go through customs every time they want to see their team play.

Southern Ontario may be Leafs country, but it becomes a second opportunity for Torontans (or whatever the hell name you give yourselves) and southern Ontarians to watch NHL hockey. Especially since it's difficult to obtain Leafs tickets, it'll be somewhat easier to obtain Coyotes tickets.

[AndrewG70]

Hamilton is 41 miles from Toronto. So I suggest...

The Toronto Coyotes of Hamilton!

[rams80]

Let's see....I could watch my new Kanon DVDs or thoroughly demolish your argument.

Hmmm....the yummy tears of sadness can wait.

(Part1)

Here is my 2 cents. I recently wrote an essay for my English class on Winnipeg needing an NHL team. If anyone would like to read it I can post a link or something. I did lots of research and yes, I team in Winnipeg would work.

Clearly your research did not include consulting any of the members of this fine community who actually hail from Winnipeg and state unequivocally that the NHL would not work there. There are not enough people to be able to support a NHL team for a full season at current ticket prices.

So would I team in Hamilton, Milwaukee, Salt Lake City, Seattle, Portland, Kansas City, Saskatchewan, Quebec and Hartford.

In order...

Perhaps, but Buffalo would never agree to it....at least without financial compensation to the tune of a couple billion dollars.

Too crowded a market

Maybe, although Salt Lake City isn't that big and the Jazz are pretty popular IIRC

Not until they get an arena, and they don't want to build on.

Possibly, but they would be fighting the Trail Blazers

Probably, but it would take work.

There aren't enough people in the ing province, let alone Saskatoon or Regina.

Not until they build a new arena at the very least, and even then they're only slightly larger than Winnipeg.

Never. Shamu is dead, please let him stay that way.

Hockey is a niche sport and you can't force it upon someone. They either like it or not. This is why the NHL DOES NOT work in the south. Florida, Atlanta, Phoenix, Nashville and the New York Islanders should all be moved.

Ahh....absolutism as an argument. No time for patience, no time for encouraging the love. You either like it or you don't. Also, how the is Long Island in the South?!

Tampa will likely fail soon, so I will add them to the list too.

Please present your well-researched proof. If at any point mention is made of the lack of snow on the ground locally, your argument automatically fails.

The Islanders I see as a market that did not grow with the times. It no longer can support a team. Even though the team sucks, and even though they have a crappy arena, they still can't even get a bad sized crowd, they are just plain HORRIBLE.

To whit. 1) The Isles play in the 2nd worst, soon to be the worst once the Igloo is blown up, arena in the NHL. Even though their owner has been trying to build a replacement out of his own pocket, the local governments won't let him.

2) To say the Islanders suck is an understatement. It would be more accurate to say that there are multiple AHL teams who I would take over the Islanders in a 7 game series. That is beyond sucking.

3) How many individuals, having to deal with New York's cost of living mind you, would want to pay money to schelp over to a hole arena to watch a team that is worse than some AHL teams get blown out on a regular basis IN THE MIDST OF THE WORST ECONOMIC COLLAPSE SINCE THE 1930S?!

[rams80]

(Part 2)

Phoenix to Winnipeg.

Don't even bother arguing for the sake of the team because face it, why are they bankrupt?? Nuff said.

Buffalo and Ottawa also went bankrupt within the last decade. Should we move them? Moyes didn't file for Chapter 11 (assuming he had the legal right to do so, which is in doubt) solely because of the market.

New York to Kansas City

Charles Wang plans on doing this anyway if the "Lighthouse Project" doesn't go through. And I think its safe to say that you can count on it not going through. Again, Nuff said.

Possibly, but not for lack of trying and not because Long Island is a bad market.

Tampa Bay to Quebec

The Bolts started to do good after they won the cup, but the lockout didn't help them any. They are still living off of the "post championship buzz" but it's starting to wear off. Having a bad team this year didn't really help either. Eventually the team will have to sell and then it can move. With Lecavilier and St. Louis both being Quebec natives, this should help draw some fans in. Like I said, I team will work here because hockey is a niche sport and Quebec citizens love their hockey, and if you give them a second chance, trust me, they will not blow it.

Where the hell is Quebec's major league caliber arena then? How is a metro area of 715,000 going to be able to financially support a NHL team for any length of time?

I also need more reason for the Lightning to move than sheer conjecture on your part.

Thats just a couple of the teams. If somebody wants, I can give reasons for any team to move, I just am tired right now and don't want to list a bunch of reasons for every team. Anyway, here is my proposal:

Sees as you're simply pulling them out of your , I don't see why you can't.

Toronto Hamilton Ottawa Montreal Quebec

Boston New York New Jersey Buffalo Harford

Philadelphia Pittsburgh Washington Columbus Carolina

Vancouver Calgary Edmonton Saskatchewan Winnipeg

Chicago Detroit Minnesota St. Louis Milwaukee

San Jose Los Angeles Colorado Dallas Kansas City

As I stare at this list in rapt fascination, I can only ask one thing. Why is Carolina still here? Did Yellowknife tell you "no thanks" or something?

I may think about that and add in a couple expansion teams, because I think that the hockey market has grown enough for that too. Another story for another time though.

No, they're getting an expansion team aren't they? I have trouble reconciling your claims of "niche sport" with the word "expansion."

[rams80]

If you're gonna put hockey somewhere, why put it in an already saturated hockey market? You're not going to grow the game in an area that is already crazy about hockey, and has several teams to root for

So... Devils to Kansas City then John?

What *several* teams to root for? Kitchener/Waterloo/Hamilton is Leafs and Leafs only... sure you could argue the Sabres are an option, maybe even the Red Wings, but it is a very small amount of people that are willing to go through customs every time they want to see their team play.

Southern Ontario may be Leafs country, but it becomes a second opportunity for Torontans (or whatever the hell name you give yourselves) and southern Ontarians to watch NHL hockey. Especially since it's difficult to obtain Leafs tickets, it'll be somewhat easier to obtain Coyotes tickets.

You assume the NHL is going to stick them in the same Division, nay Conference, as the Leafs. I don't. Especially if they are owned and operated by one Jim Balsillie.

Otherwise, they also have a second opportunity to watch NHL hockey. It's called Buffalo.

[wildnorthman]

The NHL likes to control things, I guess all sports leagues do, so it is fun for us to imagine a "what if" scenario here. I miss the Jets in Winnipeg and they do have the MTS Centre to host games now. I am sure that more than just Manitobans would support the team. I live on the US-CDN border and our neighbor to the north loved the Jets and the way that they were only five hours away, which is close for us, because the Wild are six hours away. You would create a rivalry between Winnipeg and Minnesota and decent enough travel for most fans to see a good number of games.

The Hamilton idea has plenty of merit. Don Cherry himself said this evening on Coach's Corner that it would be gold mine to locate the Coyotes in Hamilton, but the Leafs and Sabres would have a big say in the whole process. If not Winnipeg, then certainly Hamilton.

Mr. BlackBerry has plenty of money, but low on smarts, as he is not getting along with Gary Bettman and the NHL governors. Things can get plenty political in sports when it comes to moving teams and creating and breaking allegiances. I like the jersey ksupilot showed, and I would gladly drive often to Winnipeg to see the new Jets or the NHL version of the Manitoba Moose. Good luck to all involved and it is always a great day to watch or play hockey!