Back In The Game?

[rams80]

If there were to be a second team in the Greater Toronto Area, and we were to also factor in this nostalgia for the "jets" moniker...

Could the team be nicknamed the Arrows in honor of this beauty?

[SenatorJake]

It's a shame that there have been so many Canadians making asses of themselves with hyperbolic anti-Bettman rhetoric that it's been matched by people who are tripping over themselves to justify why an organization that has failed for thirteen years just needs one more chaaaaaance.

But it hasn't failed for 13 years. When that team arrived in Phoenix, when they were a competitive franchise, there was a strong showing of support. Since then, the ownership has done just about everything wrong.

I guess I'd put it this way.

Put this team in Hamilton for the last 13 years, and after the brief honeymoon and collapse of a competitive franchise, and they wouldn't be in any better shape. They really wouldn't. And in Hamilton, you don't have much to strive for, because even getting them into better shape would mean the most miniscule increase in league revenue.

Phoenix has shown the potential to support the team, and they're would certainly be a large reward for making it work in Phoenix.

If the league gave it it's best shot and hockey failed in Phoenix that'd be one thing.

But the actions of the ownership group for the last 8 years hardly constitute anyone's best shot.

Besides Phoenix being a large US market that would be a shining jewel in the NHL's crown, there is quite simply not a shred of truth in your statement.

Here are the average attendance records since Phoenix moved from Winnipeg:

'96-'97: 15 604

'97-'98: 15 405

'98-'99: 15 548

'99-'00: 14 991

'00-'01: 14 224

'01-'02: 13 161

'02-'03: 13 229

'03-'04: 15 469

'05-'06: 15 582

'06-'07: 14 988

'07-'08: 14 820

'08-'09: 14 875

Fact of the matter is that this team has always been on the lower rungs of the NHL attendance wise. There was never any fan support for this team and from the looks of things, there never will be. I wouldn't call an average of 15 604 FOR THEIR INAUGURAL SEASON (!) strong support at all, in fact it's a pretty dismal number. This team has lost tons of cash and while I will agree that their horrible lease agreement with the city of Glendale is part of the problem, it does not explain how this team lost 180 million dollars in the past 8 years.

Maybe Janet Gretzky gambled it all away on coin tosses or something.

[SenatorJake]

If there were to be a second team in the Greater Toronto Area, and we were to also factor in this nostalgia for the "jets" moniker...

Could the team be nicknamed the Arrows in honor of this beauty?

That would actually be pretty cool.

[Lee.]

This team has lost tons of cash and while I will agree that their horrible lease agreement with the city of Glendale is part of the problem, it does not explain how this team lost 180 million dollars in the past 8 years.

The kicker here is that out of that $180M, at least $100M of that has been the last 3 years, if reports are to be believed.

You know what, I'm going to change my stance and suggest that the Coyotes stay. There are several NHL franchises (LA, Anaheim, Dallas) that are demanding that the NHL keep the team in Phoenix, but overall, it's still cheaper for me to fly from Bellingham WA to Phoenix, pay for a nice hotel, see a game in Glendale, and fly home than it is to see a game in Vancouver.

[Sodboy13]

Besides Phoenix being a large US market that would be a shining jewel in the NHL's crown, there is quite simply not a shred of truth in your statement.

Here are the average attendance records since Phoenix moved from Winnipeg:

'96-'97: 15 604

'97-'98: 15 405

'98-'99: 15 548

'99-'00: 14 991

'00-'01: 14 224

'01-'02: 13 161

'02-'03: 13 229

'03-'04: 15 469

'05-'06: 15 582

'06-'07: 14 988

'07-'08: 14 820

'08-'09: 14 875

Fact of the matter is that this team has always been on the lower rungs of the NHL attendance wise. There was never any fan support for this team and from the looks of things, there never will be. I wouldn't call an average of 15 604 FOR THEIR INAUGURAL SEASON (!) strong support at all, in fact it's a pretty dismal number.

Numbers are a funny thing, epecially when it's one set in the context of two different arenas.

Jobing.com holds 17,799 for hockey.

America West Arena, where the Coyotes played from 1996 until late 2003, held only 16,210 for hockey in a rather slapdash configuration.

So in regard to the inaugural campaign, I'd call 96.26% of capacity a strong draw, and one that held for the first three seasons. The numbers after that, you are free to draw your own conclusions.

[Lee.]

Just to play devil's advocate, let's quit using attendance figures and start using average revenues, can we do that?

[Jigga]

No, because attendance figures better help make the point that the team should move back to some former failed NHL retread in Canadia.

[BBTV]

Besides Phoenix being a large US market that would be a shining jewel in the NHL's crown, there is quite simply not a shred of truth in your statement.

Here are the average attendance records since Phoenix moved from Winnipeg:

'96-'97: 15 604

'97-'98: 15 405

'98-'99: 15 548

'99-'00: 14 991

'00-'01: 14 224

'01-'02: 13 161

'02-'03: 13 229

'03-'04: 15 469

'05-'06: 15 582

'06-'07: 14 988

'07-'08: 14 820

'08-'09: 14 875

Fact of the matter is that this team has always been on the lower rungs of the NHL attendance wise. There was never any fan support for this team and from the looks of things, there never will be. I wouldn't call an average of 15 604 FOR THEIR INAUGURAL SEASON (!) strong support at all, in fact it's a pretty dismal number.

Numbers are a funny thing, epecially when it's one set in the context of two different arenas.

Jobing.com holds 17,799 for hockey.

America West Arena, where the Coyotes played from 1996 until late 2003, held only 16,210 for hockey in a rather slapdash configuration.

So in regard to the inaugural campaign, I'd call 96.26% of capacity a strong draw, and one that held for the first three seasons. The numbers after that, you are free to draw your own conclusions.

I disagree that %capacity is a meaningful number in a smaller venues. In a small venue, wouldn't you expect the %capacity to = 100?

[SenatorJake]

No, because attendance figures better help make the point that the team should move back to some former failed NHL retread in Canadia.

Did you even read what I posted? I don't even want the Coyotes to move to Canada. I want them to move to a market where they won't lose 180 million dollars in 8 years. A hundred of which were in the past 3 years. Just because I'm Canadian, people expect me to be all like: "Yay, Canananada iz the bestest!!!!!11!!11!!!!111" That's not the case. Move the team to Kansas City for all I care. Just get this team out of a market where it's costing the league tons of money to keep it afloat. It's bad business to hold on to this notion that Phoenix might somehow work if the stars and planets align. It hasn't worked in Phoenix. It won't work in Phoenix. Let's move on.

[Sodboy13]

Just to play devil's advocate, let's quit using attendance figures and start using average revenues, can we do that?

Much better. Is there, in fact, a time when this team wasn't bleeding like Ric Flair after a bottle of aspirin? Because "We were making money, until this all went down" is slightly more compelling than "We've been throwing cash down a hole since day one."

[SenatorJake]

From Forbes Magazine, who ranks the Phoenix Coyotes dead last in the NHL in terms of franchise value:

The plans to expand the NHL to the southwest and ignite economic growth in Glendale, Arizona by meshing a new multi-purpose arena with 6.5 million square feet of new real estate development has been a catastrophe. Under the leadership of Steven Ellman, Jerry Moyes and Wayne Gretzky, the Coyotes have been a dysfunctional and under-capitalized hockey franchise that Gretzky, the team boss, has been unable to get a grip on. Westgate City, in part tied to the success of people showing up for hockey games, has been a bust. As a result of their consistent losses on and off the ice the Coyotes have struggled to draw fans to Jobing.com Arena since the building opened in December 2003. If it were not for the huge fee the team would have to pay as stipulated by their lease if they were to move, it would make sense for the Coyotes to bolt Phoenix.

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2008/31/nhl08_...tes_315126.html

[STL FANATIC]

It's a shame that there have been so many Canadians making asses of themselves with hyperbolic anti-Bettman rhetoric that it's been matched by people who are tripping over themselves to justify why an organization that has failed for thirteen years just needs one more chaaaaaance.

But it hasn't failed for 13 years. When that team arrived in Phoenix, when they were a competitive franchise, there was a strong showing of support. Since then, the ownership has done just about everything wrong.

I guess I'd put it this way.

Put this team in Hamilton for the last 13 years, and after the brief honeymoon and collapse of a competitive franchise, and they wouldn't be in any better shape. They really wouldn't. And in Hamilton, you don't have much to strive for, because even getting them into better shape would mean the most miniscule increase in league revenue.

Phoenix has shown the potential to support the team, and they're would certainly be a large reward for making it work in Phoenix.

If the league gave it it's best shot and hockey failed in Phoenix that'd be one thing.

But the actions of the ownership group for the last 8 years hardly constitute anyone's best shot.

Besides Phoenix being a large US market that would be a shining jewel in the NHL's crown, there is quite simply not a shred of truth in your statement.

Here are the average attendance records since Phoenix moved from Winnipeg:

'96-'97: 15 604

'97-'98: 15 405

'98-'99: 15 548

'99-'00: 14 991

'00-'01: 14 224

'01-'02: 13 161

'02-'03: 13 229

'03-'04: 15 469

'05-'06: 15 582

'06-'07: 14 988

'07-'08: 14 820

'08-'09: 14 875

Fact of the matter is that this team has always been on the lower rungs of the NHL attendance wise. There was never any fan support for this team and from the looks of things, there never will be. I wouldn't call an average of 15 604 FOR THEIR INAUGURAL SEASON (!) strong support at all, in fact it's a pretty dismal number. This team has lost tons of cash and while I will agree that their horrible lease agreement with the city of Glendale is part of the problem, it does not explain how this team lost 180 million dollars in the past 8 years.

Maybe Janet Gretzky gambled it all away on coin tosses or something.

US Airways Arena held 16,210 for hockey. That means the were playing to about 95% capacity crowds for the first few years and probably had a fair number of sellouts.

But don't let that get in the way.

EDIT: Guess I missed this whole page of posts.

[STL FANATIC]

I disagree that %capacity is a meaningful number in a smaller venues. In a small venue, wouldn't you expect the %capacity to = 100?

But it's a bit unrealistic to expect them to sellout every single game, regardless. A 95+% total would suggest they sold out a pretty fair share of their games.

[SenatorJake]

US Airways Arena held 16,210 for hockey. That means the were playing to about 95% capacity crowds for the first few years and probably had a fair number of sellouts.

But don't let that get in the way.

So they can't pack a 16 210 capacity arena night-in night-out? That seems like some pretty weak attendance for a team that is still in the "honeymoon stage" in their respective market. For the past 10 years attendance has been progressively getting worse with a slight spike when they opened up their new arena. These attendance numbers are quite simply insufficient to argue that this team should stay in Phoenix.

Hate to repeat myself, but in case you didn't see this:

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2008/31/nhl08_...tes_315126.html

[STL FANATIC]

This much remains true. There was enough interest to sell out a good number of games for three years while the team was competitive.

There has not been a single successful ownership decision made since that time, and the fans have disappeared. Making no effort to put a winning product on the ice is no way to draw fans.

Until they make that effort, it's simply unfair to judge the market.

If the Blues hadn't gotten a worthwhile front office and started make a serious and interesting effort to be a better hockey team, we'd still be drawing about 12,000 in St. Louis. And certainly wouldn't mean we were a bad hockey market that didn't deserve a team.

None of these stats matter until an effort to win is put forth by ownership.

[The_Admiral]

Let's share our favorite memories of the Phoenix Coyotes, if this is truly the end of an era.

One time this year, the Blackhawks beat the Coyotes and Wayne Gretzky got mad and felt the Hawks were running up the score. I think Bryzgalov got knocked out of the game.

Thus concludes my memories of the Phoenix Coyotes. What are yours?

[CC97]

Let's share our favorite memories of the Phoenix Coyotes, if this is truly the end of an era.

One time this year, the Blackhawks beat the Coyotes and Wayne Gretzky got mad and felt the Hawks were running up the score. I think Bryzgalov got knocked out of the game.

Thus concludes my memories of the Phoenix Coyotes. What are yours?

My favourite Phoenix Coyotes memory is the time I found two Coyotes jerseys on the clearance rack in Prince Edward Island at a discount store. Got the home and road new for $25 (Cdn) each. I'm going to miss them.

[SenatorJake]

Let's share our favorite memories of the Phoenix Coyotes, if this is truly the end of an era.

One time this year, the Blackhawks beat the Coyotes and Wayne Gretzky got mad and felt the Hawks were running up the score. I think Bryzgalov got knocked out of the game.

Thus concludes my memories of the Phoenix Coyotes. What are yours?

Any game with Mike Gartner in it was pretty much sure to have a breakaway. Man that mofo could skate! Also, he had a sweet mustache in his younger days.

[Lee.]

My main memory of the Coyotes is when they were in Winnipeg, and tried to trade Tkachuk to Chicago for Jeremy Roenick, but Roenick blocked the trade because he didn't want to play in Winnipeg, so the Jets traded Selanne to Anaheim for Tverdovsky and Jason Doig instead. That off-season, Roenick signed with the Coyotes as a free agent.

Oh, and the time they moved to Phoenix from Winnipeg.

[njmeadowlanders]

The first NHL game I ever saw was between the New Jersey Devils and Winnipeg Jets at the then Brendan Byrne Arena in 1988. It was Devils megaphone night. I was 3.

Same franchise....does that count?

Oh, they did sue our school for copyright infringement of "White Out" for Penn State football games and I had to write a paper about the issues and why the Coyotes would win the case had it actually gone to court.