Back In The Game?

[IceCap]

Im sorry to anyone who lives in Phoenix or is a fan of the Coyotes but Phoenix doesnt belong in the NHL. Its a downright joke that they have a team when places like Winnipeg, Quebec, Southern Ontario, Seattle (Yes, I think Seattle can work) dont have a team. The sooner the Coyotes leave (same goes for the Predators) the better.

It's a downright joke they want to expand the game to larger cities with newer arenas? *scratches head*

I wouldn't say it's a joke, I would say the gamble was worth a shot. I mean IF it did work, it would have been huge. It was worth the risk.

Now that we're more then 10 years in, however, it's time to rethink things. This particular experiment didn't work out.

Phoenix, in 1996, deserved a team because it was an expanding market with a strong northern transplanted population that grew up with hockey, and the NHL's presence there would add to the league's image as a truly "national" (in an American sense) venture.

Phoenix, in 2009, doesn't deserve a team because in the 13 years they've been there they have not once drawn a profit, and the team's consistent under performance doesn't look to improve those prospects for the future. If the team's bankrupt, it's bankrupt. There's trying to make an idea work, and then there's admitting when an idea didn't work. This is time for the latter.

In a strange sense I admire Mr. Bettman for sticking to his guns in his attempt to make the NHL truly "mainstream" in the States, but in some cases the game just didn't take. And in those cases, Phoenix seems to be the most glaring example, relocating them to a city where they will draw is a much better option then keeping them in their present location out of stubbornness and having them completley fold within ten years.

Now where should they move to? I won't lie, I'd like them to move to Hamilton. Not only out of a personal desire to see cheap(er) NHL hockey, but also because I honestly think they can draw in the area and be profitable.

I would also like to see them move to Kansas City, however, if Mr. Bettman can't get accept the country that created the game getting more teams. Kansas City has a new arena, a built in rivalry with the Blues, and the Blues, as well as countless minor league teams, have proven that hockey takes in the area.

So should the Coyotes move? Yes, without a doubt. Hockey in Arizona was a novel idea, one worth trying, but it didn't work. Cut the loses and move on.

Should they move to Hamilton? One of two great choices, the other being KC. Either would be a huge improvement for both the team and the NHL.

Winnipeg? A city devoted to the game, but realistically it isn't large enough to support a NHL team. Sad, but true.

Is this a rant against southern hockey? No. As much as some people wish it were.

Dallas, Tampa Bay, Carolina, San Jose, LA, and Anaheim have all proven that the game can work in the south.

In some southern locations, it just hasn't, however.

Hockey is a niche sport and you can't force it upon someone. They either like it or not. This is why the NHL DOES NOT work in the south. Florida, Atlanta, Phoenix, Nashville and the New York Islanders should all be moved.

Ahh....absolutism as an argument. No time for patience, no time for encouraging the love. You either like it or you don't. Also, how the is Long Island in the South?!

To be fair, countering moral absolutism with moral absolutism isn't much better. I mean I know you got tired of uniformed idiots calling St. Louis a "sun belt" team that needed to be contracted, but regressing by going over to the "all southern hockey is great, I don't care what the facts on attendance and revenue say, and Canada should never get a team again ever" side wasn't much better.

Buffalo and Ottawa also went bankrupt within the last decade. Should we move them? Moyes didn't file for Chapter 11 (assuming he had the legal right to do so, which is in doubt) solely because of the market.

He owns the team, why shouldn't he be allowed to file for Chapter 11? Besides, the team's books say that was probably the right decision anyway.

Bettman pulling a MLB/Expos and putting the team on league-sponsored life support isn't really going to fix the bigger problem with the market.

As for the Sabres and Sens.....

Both Buffalo and Ottawa had fanbases to fall back on. Yeah, times were tight for a while, but getting investors/the league to give them second chances was easier because both those cities had the fan bases to support the team. The potential was still there, even if money was tight for a while. There is no solid fanbase for the Coyotes to fall back on. I mean I thought things were bad in Nashville. The Coyotes make the Preds look almost like an Original Six team in terms of fan support.

Bottom line? You can't compare Buffalo/Ottawa to Phoenix.

If there were to be a second team in the Greater Toronto Area, and we were to also factor in this nostalgia for the "jets" moniker...

Could the team be nicknamed the Arrows in honor of this beauty?

That would rule. I am partial to the name Hamilton Tigers and the black/yellow colour scheme, but Hamilton Arrows is a VERY close second.

Now if they move to KC....I have no idea. Best I can come up with is the Blades. Any KC locals have any ideas?

[Linus]

Found this on the web...

[Milo Meningocele]

[Now if they move to KC....I have no idea. Best I can come up with is the Blades.

Ugh, I hope not. That's only the slightest step up from the Nets, as blades can at least hurt someone. But man, let's not use a piece of equipment as a nickname.

[IceCap]

Usually I would be with you on that 100%, but I can't really come up with anything else.

Scouts? No Cleveland Deal plzkthx

Royals/Monarchs? To close to "Kings."

[The_Admiral]

[Now if they move to KC....I have no idea. Best I can come up with is the Blades.

Ugh, I hope not. That's only the slightest step up from the Nets, as blades can at least hurt someone. But man, let's not use a piece of equipment as a nickname.

"Pads unable to stop the bleeding in blowout loss"

[Island_Style]

Has Milwaukee ever received consideration for a NHL team? I always thought they may thrive if givin the chance. That guess is uneducated.

[tp49]

Just because I don't know I thought I'd ask the following questions regarding both Hamilton and Winnipeg.

Usually corporate support is a consideration when thinking about relocating a franchise. It's come up where I live because there was some speculation about the Oakland Athletics moving up this way. One of the major arguments against is a lack of presence of Fortune 500 companies who would be the organizations most likely to purchase luxury suites. Thus, if the Fortune 500 is a benchmark:

How many Fortune 500 companies are headquartered in Winnipeg or Hamilton or are headquartered within a reasonable distance from either city?

My other thought on moving another team into the area of an already established team is that most likely it would draw for the first couple of years because of the novelty. However, considering the rabid Leafs fan base, I would think that any reloacted team would have difficulty establishing a fanbase. Just because a team moves into your backyard doesn't mean that you are going to drop the team you already root for especially when they don't play that far from where you live. Arguably it would take 15-20 years to establish a true fan base (shorter if they put a winning product on the ice.)

Thus my question is this:

Do those supporting a move to Hamilton honestly think that there will be an instant fan base or will their loyalty to Toronto take precedence considering how close Toronto is to Hamilton?

[TFoA]

Unless they start winning immediately, the Hamilton team is going to be to the Toronto area what the Los Angeles Clippers are to the Los Angeles area. Even when the Clippers were *gasp* better than the Lakers at one point, the Lakers still owned that town. I'd imagine that if tp49 is right, the same thing would happen to the Hamilton team.

[DarkJourney]

The NHL could have saved us all this trouble and moved the Winnipeg Jets to Minneapolis intstead of Phoenix back in 1996.

[rams80]

FWIW I found some interesting statistics on attendance figures for minor league teams here. They have statistics for the AHL, ECHL, IHL, and the CHL.

Hershey is #1 drawing almost 9,000 people a game. Fort Wayne, yes Fort Wayne is second drawing around 7,800 people a game. Just some interesting facts to look at.

That's because folks in Fort Wayne like their beer league hockey. And their comped tickets IIRC.

[rams80]

The NHL could have saved us all this trouble and moved the Winnipeg Jets to Minneapolis intstead of Phoenix back in 1996.

And where would they have played precisely? The Met Center was torn down in '94, and the XCel Center ended up being built on the site of the old St. Paul Civic Center.

[tp49]

The Target Center.

[crashcarson15]

In some senses you can compare some of these markets, but take Columbus for an example. There are still a lot of Wings fans in Ohio from the pre-Jackets days, but in Ohio there were many fans (now Jackets fans) that didn't have a rooting interest in hockey, so it was easy to root for the Jackets.

But I'm gonna assume everyone in Southern Ontario already has a rooting interest and the easier way to grow a fanbase is to have them in the Western Conference, but that shouldn't happen as there is already a great rivalry that would be there with the Leafs and Sabres, plus the Sens and Habs.

[johnnygriswold]

I'm fine with the NHL being a regional sport. Relocate everyone to the northeast area. Give Toronto THREE teams for all I care. Just as long as I NEVER have to see a Calgary Flames vs. Phoenix Coyotes borefest.

[Lee.]

The NHL could have saved us all this trouble and moved the Winnipeg Jets to Minneapolis intstead of Phoenix back in 1996.

And where would they have played precisely? The Met Center was torn down in '94, and the XCel Center ended up being built on the site of the old St. Paul Civic Center.

The Target Center.

This was the exact plan, right down to the original "letter of intent to purchase."

Then, Shenkarow came back and said he'd give the city one more year to sort things out, and the rest is history.

[BBTV]

[Now if they move to KC....I have no idea. Best I can come up with is the Blades.

Ugh, I hope not. That's only the slightest step up from the Nets, as blades can at least hurt someone. But man, let's not use a piece of equipment as a nickname.

"Pads unable to stop the bleeding in blowout loss"

POTD.

[CC97]

Unless they start winning immediately, the Hamilton team is going to be to the Toronto area what the Los Angeles Clippers are to the Los Angeles area. Even when the Clippers were *gasp* better than the Lakers at one point, the Lakers still owned that town. I'd imagine that if tp49 is right, the same thing would happen to the Hamilton team.

Ottawa seemed to have little problem getting their own fanbase even though they're quite close to Montreal. Now they did end up bankrupt at one point but I really cannot remember what the circumstances were behind that (owner? lack of attendence? etc.)

[walby2]

And while I'm on the subject of Canadian sports identities, why don't the Tiger-Cats just change their name to the Tigers already. You don't hear about the Rockies wanting to be called the Rocky-Mounts to avoid confusion with the old hockey team, do you?

Not to digress, but the name "Tiger-Cats" was created when the Hamilton Tigers and the Hamilton Flying Wildcats merged in 1950.

You would think that somewhere along the line the "-Cats" appendage would have been dropped and the team would have simply become known as the "Tigers", but that never happened - in the CFL universe, they have been referred to for decades as the "TiCats".

[Corvus]

This is why, as a Pheonix fan, that this is so hypocritical; they ask for Phoenix, Carolina, Atlanta, etc, but thou shall not harm the Kings, Sharks, Stars, Blues, etc.

Kings, Sharks, Stars, and Blues are not being kept alive only on welfare from the other teams. The only reason Phoenix still has a team is that its being subsidized by the dollars spent by fans in viable hockey markets.

[rams80]

The NHL could have saved us all this trouble and moved the Winnipeg Jets to Minneapolis intstead of Phoenix back in 1996.

And where would they have played precisely? The Met Center was torn down in '94, and the XCel Center ended up being built on the site of the old St. Paul Civic Center.

The Target Center.

This was the exact plan, right down to the original "letter of intent to purchase."

Then, Shenkarow came back and said he'd give the city one more year to sort things out, and the rest is history.

So you can stick a rink there? OK, I wasn't sure, since it seems like you can't in most NBA only arenas.