How we define a "concept".

[Cola]

Okay, this thread may be an oxymoron because...it isn't a concept.

However, could we all get into the habit of using the topic description (or even the title if there is room) to define what KIND of concept it is? For example, I can usually care less about uniforms concepts...because most times, I can rarely tell some kind of big difference- an extra stripe is added, they use an alternate logo, they reverse the coloring on a wordmark, etc. Something pretty small and mundane.

Not to point this one out...but the Minnesota Twins concept on the front page. To me, nothing groundbreaking...as an average follower of MLB baseball (although not of the Twins), I can barely notice MUCH of a difference in what they wear and what they possibly could wear.

Could we make it a practice of putting "Minnesota Twins Uniform Concept"? That would make me refrain from clicking the link...and for those that were interested, they would.

When I see "Minnesota Concept"...I get all excited and expect some custom graphic design work on a new logo or wordmark.

This is just my .02 and I know all may not agree, I just thought I would throw this out there. It would certainly be appreciated!

[chickenfish13]

I actually kind of agree with this. Not to take anything away from designers, but I enjoy seeing a really cool logo design, than a jersey. If theres a really cool logo design, then I look at the jerseys. I know many people enjoy designing jerseys, and good for them, but I (and I guess ColaCock) would rather see a logo design. Also, I'm not trying to take away from other designers, like Bmac ( I mention him because his jersey was mentioned by colacock) as his jersey design is nice, but because I know about the twins logos more than the jerseys, I can't tell if theres a huge difference or not. I'm NOT trying to take away anything from designers who design jerseys more, I just agree with ColaCock's statement.

[rentz]

Yeah I'd be in favor of something like this, however I'm biased as I do a lot of custom logo work... not trying to take anything away from people that tweak the uniforms, but it's a bit disheartening when your hard work is displaced by a lot of "tweaks".

You're right, perhaps their should be some sort of terminology in place to better define a concept

[elliott]

See, this is just gonna turn into a paint v. vector users battle again.

Cola , I agree wholeheartedly with you. I've been making the same point for a while, or at least trying, although people don't always listen. I've always said I'll take a bad creative concept over a good looking, very obvious one.

Chickenfish, I will have to say that I enjoy a good uniform concept any day, ad long as it is good, but you are right for the most part, the best part of the forum is original logos. But put original logos with original jerseys and it just gets better.

BUT, and this is a big but, paint users (not every paint used mind you, but most) are content with getting a, say, Nhl Edge template that someone made, and filling in the lines, maybe slap on an alternate logo. I get tired of concepts with the home and away both using the Coyotes alternate template.

And my point here is that paint users find it tough to create original logos and templates because it's not very easy. It's an understandable argument, but paint shouldn't be an excuse. Fact is, there's this thing called inkscape. I think the twins concept in question looks fine, but where is the creativity? I can't tell any difference, and it was stated that it is a new template, but it just appears to be a sportslogos.net template. No offense to the designer but it works perfectly as an example here. There are just so many things that can be varied to create a solid concept. Colors, logos, fonts, striping/piping...in this case, nothing changes.

It's a matter of choice in program, but paint users who fill in templates, you know you are (shout out to raysox and bigmike and blitz and others who don't fit the mold), and I know you can do better. Seriously, I hate to sound like "the vector way is the only way", because I know I do sound like that...but the quality of concepts on here can improve, and vector programs sure help with that. Thanks cola, for bringing this up, because it is an issue.

Edit: wow it censored out c o c k lol. Shoulda just said colacock.

[ONUV]

to me, concepts should push the limits like an automobile concept. it won't be the final product but the creator can tweak certain things to get to a final product.

[DDR]

I enjoy a good uniform concept if it breaks some new ground. There have been a few good NHL series lately that while not developing new logos, shows some new thinking. However, I like calling out a larger redesign versus a small tweak as well.

[TwinsTerritory]

Maybe add a "jersey" section in addition to the "concept" section? It's definitely an interesting point. An example of something that it more of a "concept" is what Bohub is doing. He does jerseys, but also several tweaks and new ideas for logos. I like jersey ideas, but I agree that there is somewhat of a difference.

[Gazzzaf]

I'd prefer to see a sig/avatar/wallpaper sub-section before seeing one for jerseys. Logos and jerseys relate to an identity whereas sigs and the like are more for personal use.

[undead]

I agree that I really don't like uniform redesigns as much as I enjoy looking at logo design or redesign. I actually like poor logo design better than seeing a jersey concept. I don't think we could have a separate uniform section because what about people like elliott and dgnmrwrw? Their threads have logo design and uniform redesign. If I click on something that says concept, and it turns out to be a uniform redesign, I don't get mad, I just move on to the next one. It would be cool if there were some kind of icons that would show up on the main concept screen next to each thread. Use a shirt to denote uniform, an "L" for uniform, or use both for elliott, etc.

[DelayedPenalty]

It is not a concept if...

you recolor a logo.

you fill in a template.

Add to this list if you like.

it takes less than 10 minutes to come up with the idea and post it to the boards

it's incomplete (this can include only doing one side of the uniform, only a home and no road, not including shoulder/chest/sleeve patches, not adding numbers, etc)

[Davidson]

agree with lots of this:

* attempts at logos are far more interesting than changing the stripe width and third strip logo on your favorite hockey jersey.

you dont have to be a great designer or an expert at the technology to have a great idea. the NE flag thread and the bison

in the thunder cloud logos spring to mind as great ideas for logos.

* if you recolour your favorite football helmet using an early iteration of the franchises colours (bills, broncos etc etc) you need

your own thread.

* sigs: co-opting other peoples creativity to express oneself. i dont get it. perhaps im just old?

[vicfurth]

In all honesty, I like seeing new graphics myself... However, this thread may serve to further isolate the "good designers" from the "bad designers" before it helps.

I know that, personally, I haven't done much in the way of new logos. That isn't to say that I am offended because, frankly, I've been here for six years and it's high-time I started drawing like it, lol.

What I'm meaning is that, more often than not, new members are not going to have the know-how or experience to "tickle our fancy" with a spectacular new logo. Heck, maybe a stripe tweak is all they've stretched their creativity to thus far.

I just don't want us, as a whole, to seem snobbish for lack of a better word. We should be encouraging new designers to expand, not degrading them because they need to improve in creativity.

[undead]

What I'm meaning is that, more often than not, new members are not going to have the know-how or experience to "tickle our fancy" with a spectacular new logo. Heck, maybe a stripe tweak is all they've stretched their creativity to thus far.

I just don't want us, as a whole, to seem snobbish for lack of a better word. We should be encouraging new designers to expand, not degrading them because they need to improve in creativity.

I agree with this as well. I'm really impressed at watching the evolution of the talent on these boards. Look at how far chickenfish has come in the short time he's been here. He could have got discouraged and quit but he stuck with it and now look where he's at. A lot of my early stuff I spent hours on and I was pretty darn pleased with myself at the time. I didn't post it and now I'm happy that I didn't. Everyone has their own thing that they're into. I, personally, don't usually look at football or soccer concepts. Some people probably get excited when they see someone has posted a redesign of the Red Sox batting practice uniform.

[Conrad.]

I'd prefer to see a sig/avatar/wallpaper sub-section before seeing one for jerseys. Logos and jerseys relate to an identity whereas sigs and the like are more for personal use.

i'm all for this idea...sig/ava/wallpaper "concepts" are far from the amount of creativity and depth of a good logo design (or maybe a ground-breaking uni concept). ergo, we need to have a separate section in ccslc for sigs, avas, and walls for people who enjoy that kind of thing (i'm with you on that fraser)

[therocheapproach]

This board is for sports logos if I'm not mistaken. So, yes, I think there needs to be a sub forum for the uniform tweaks. Either that or create another forum that is only for complete identity and branding concepts.

[fkaKrock5cent]

What I'm meaning is that, more often than not, new members are not going to have the know-how or experience to "tickle our fancy" with a spectacular new logo. Heck, maybe a stripe tweak is all they've stretched their creativity to thus far.

I just don't want us, as a whole, to seem snobbish for lack of a better word. We should be encouraging new designers to expand, not degrading them because they need to improve in creativity.

I agree with this as well. I'm really impressed at watching the evolution of the talent on these boards. Look at how far chickenfish has come in the short time he's been here. He could have got discouraged and quit but he stuck with it and now look where he's at. A lot of my early stuff I spent hours on and I was pretty darn pleased with myself at the time. I didn't post it and now I'm happy that I didn't. Everyone has their own thing that they're into. I, personally, don't usually look at football or soccer concepts. Some people probably get excited when they see someone has posted a redesign of the Red Sox batting practice uniform.

I agree as well. The guys who do this kind of stuff are usually young guys that just want to get involved in graphic design. I know that's how I started out. Why do we need to scold these guys like they are doing a crime to society because their concept isn't the most original thing in the world? First rule of leadership (which it would be cool for some of the better designers to start to show) is to encourage rather than discourage.

[Cola]

Whoa now, I am not trying to scold anyone here. However, you can't always play the nice guy and say that the same uniform concept approaches over and over and over and over again are acceptable...if this isn't brought up occasionally, what is going to help the designer push the mold?

Also, I think many people have already brought up a good point. I'd rather see a shoddy logo concept over a REALLY neat uniform design where you added a few stripes and flipped the colors on a few things that someone other than a fan of the team won't recognize or appreciate. This has nothing to do with experienced designer VS beginner designer. Most of us weren't very good at first when it came to these things and it take's practice...however, I think I realized pretty early on that to expand my own horizons and to get my work appreciated, it was going to take some custom work.

Whenever you spend time doing something...don't you want to be appreciated and commended for it? That alone should push someone to think outside the box and "go for it".

I'm not asking for separate forums (although it might work) because often times, a concept logo is delivered with a complete package...which is THE lone occasion where I will look at a uniform concept because here is what happens: that person who put creativity into making a custom logo...did the same for their uniforms. Uniform templates are certainly there for a reason.

If you start a thread that says "Tampa Bay Rays Concept" and I click and see a uniform...I immediately hit back. I'm probably not alone.

For those of you who think you may be in this boat and are sitting on the edge...would like to start making custom logos but haven't- go for it. I will promise you that you will receive more responses to your threads and it will make you a better designer. I visit this site 4-5 times a day and guarantee I will give my honest opinion and any help I can to all original concepts I see. Even if you sketch on paper with pencil and scan it...or crayons, your pick.

[tBBP]

Another thing that would help is, in addition to properly naming the thread, writing a brief overview of the concept presentation...and for viewers to actually read the write-ups. One of the things that happens most is viewers asking questions about the concept presentation when the answer can be found in the poster's write-up. Insitead, some people scroll right past the write-ups and go straight to the pictures. The write-ups, if done right, help the viewer see the designer's intent--or, at the very least, allows the poster the chance to express what his/her intent is. That way, the viewer may be in a better position to C&C something, rather than throwing around a bunch of questions about why one thing's one color and why something else looks a certain way--or, as has been mentioned several times up above, just click his or her way back up out of the concept thread.

To the main point of the o/p's post...whether it be logo or uniform or both that's unveiled, for me personally, all i really care about is seeing some type of thought and effort put into the design. (And again, the best place to determine that is in the write-up). Not everyone has good or even decent logo design skills. I know I sho' don't, and I've been in this game for the past three or four years. (Okay, yeah, sure I designed my own, but even now I'm still not all that fond of it.) I think the other thing that inhibits the creative process and/or expressions up in here is that far too often, people are ready to slam anything that's different--ESPECIALLY concepts for team logos and/or uniforms deemed "classic","iconic", "untouchable"--or any buzzword of the like (none of which I can stand, by the way), simply because some people can't separate their minds and/or emotions from "lore of tradition". It's one thing to critique a design based on one's feeling relative to however "iconic" it may be in one's mind, but doing that without being able to properly assess the ups and downs of a concept design based on its own merits is another thing entirely.

To wrap this up...some people shoot for the moon when creating concepts; others may make little tweaks here and there and/or clean up some rough edges here and/or there. No biggie either way, so long as the intent/purpose/focus of the concept design explained properly prior to showing.

[fkaKrock5cent]

Whoa now, I am not trying to scold anyone here. However, you can't always play the nice guy and say that the same uniform concept approaches over and over and over and over again are acceptable...if this isn't brought up occasionally, what is going to help the designer push the mold?

Also, I think many people have already brought up a good point. I'd rather see a shoddy logo concept over a REALLY neat uniform design where you added a few stripes and flipped the colors on a few things that someone other than a fan of the team won't recognize or appreciate. This has nothing to do with experienced designer VS beginner designer. Most of us weren't very good at first when it came to these things and it take's practice...however, I think I realized pretty early on that to expand my own horizons and to get my work appreciated, it was going to take some custom work.

Whenever you spend time doing something...don't you want to be appreciated and commended for it? That alone should push someone to think outside the box and "go for it".

I'm not asking for separate forums (although it might work) because often times, a concept logo is delivered with a complete package...which is THE lone occasion where I will look at a uniform concept because here is what happens: that person who put creativity into making a custom logo...did the same for their uniforms. Uniform templates are certainly there for a reason.

If you start a thread that says "Tampa Bay Rays Concept" and I click and see a uniform...I immediately hit back. I'm probably not alone.

For those of you who think you may be in this boat and are sitting on the edge...would like to start making custom logos but haven't- go for it. I will promise you that you will receive more responses to your threads and it will make you a better designer. I visit this site 4-5 times a day and guarantee I will give my honest opinion and any help I can to all original concepts I see. Even if you sketch on paper with pencil and scan it...or crayons, your pick.

Yeah, as long as we can encourage young guys to do original work then I think we should see a much more fun concepts section then we currently enjoy

[JayJaxon]

Many good points have been made so far. Bucco, I know exactly what you mean with the write-ups and there is nobody better to explain that than you because you always write lengthy write-ups for your concepts. I like for the designer to explain what the intent was, and what they feel worked and didn't work as they were putting everything together. I don't mind seeing uniform tweaks because eventually, those guys will graduate to custom logos and learn from the better designers here.

Encouraging the new guys is another topic that was brought up. I have been fighting that battle for myself and others since I got here. I have noticed a difference in the attitude when a new member tries their hand at this and are not quite there. I get PM's from new members asking me how I did this or what can they do to be better in a certain area. I enjoy knowing that I'm actually helping someone get better instead of just telling them they suck and should never come here again.

I have a lot of respect for the ones that will try to help people. People like Bucco, Logoman, GBM, and several others have helped me as a designer, and if the better designers will do more of this, I promise the quality will only go up and there will be less to complain about. You also gotta remember that some of these guys are kids that just want to learn how to be as good elliott and others. I'm happy that teens would rather spend their time on here designing uniforms than some of the other crazy stuff they could be getting into.

Anyway, some real good points here.