How we define a "concept".

[rentz]

I would say it is a good idea to start encouraging more people to use Inkscape, as it is a free widely available program. That's not to say good designs cannot result from paint, it's just a very basic program and you're not really doing yourself any favors using it. When I first came here, I had a lot of logo ideas that I would sketch on paper and they would look good, but I'd have a lot of difficulty translating them to digital form... however, I've only been here half a year and I've been using Inkscape for about that period, and I feel I now have a pretty good understanding of the program and I can make pretty competent concepts. So what I'm saying to the paint users is don't be intimidated by the program or vectors or whatever, because it's really easy to use and once you get a basic understanding of it and you'll be making much more impressive stuff on it than in paint just due to the nature of the program.

[quantum]

Back in the good ol' days, this place was a hot bed for great, original logo creation from the best talent this board had. One example is the Cardinals concept that keeps popping up from time to time. That thing has a life of its own. Then these great logos were getting ripped off, which brought about various watermarking treatments. Finally, the better designers just stopped posting.

Nowadays, the concepts board has become a haven for recolorings, striping/piping/trim modifications or retro variants. I'd like to see more original logos but I guess the pros just said to hell with it. Fraser is the new generation of pros that are willing to post, although there are far fewer pros at this point. As for sigs, I think the treatment can be very creative, even if the logo used isn't an original. IMO they develop or demonstrate a different skill set.

I believe this board should encourage creativity more. I think designers needs to care more about trying to broaden their experiences and less about pleasing other board members. Too many designers avoid taking chances with more established identities because of this silly notion of being "untouchable". Finally, for all those that cry that all they have is paint, there is a free program called Inkscape. Enough with the cut me some slack, all I have is paint garbage. A designer needs honest, constructive feedback both good and bad. The tools are there, so no more excuses.

One more thing -- I say my favorite original concept posted was Nitroseed's Amberjack logo. Great design and perfect color set.

[capn89]

I think it would actually be a really good idea to have sub-forums, if not completely different forums altogether, if only to stop threads like this. I think four would cover it; Logos, Uniforms, Identity Overhauls (or some better name), and Misc (which would cover sigs and everything else). Someone new coming in, or even anyone who's been around for a while or lurking could see something like this and get discouraged, but it is a good point to be brought up. Hopefully some changes are made so everyone can be happy.

[fkaKrock5cent]

I would say it is a good idea to start encouraging more people to use Inkscape, as it is a free widely available program. That's not to say good designs cannot result from paint, it's just a very basic program and you're not really doing yourself any favors using it. When I first came here, I had a lot of logo ideas that I would sketch on paper and they would look good, but I'd have a lot of difficulty translating them to digital form... however, I've only been here half a year and I've been using Inkscape for about that period, and I feel I now have a pretty good understanding of the program and I can make pretty competent concepts. So what I'm saying to the paint users is don't be intimidated by the program or vectors or whatever, because it's really easy to use and once you get a basic understanding of it and you'll be making much more impressive stuff on it than in paint just due to the nature of the program.

And now that there's video tutorials posted in the General Design section, it's getting easier to make the switch to vector!

[elliott]

Whoa now, I am not trying to scold anyone here. However, you can't always play the nice guy and say that the same uniform concept approaches over and over and over and over again are acceptable...if this isn't brought up occasionally, what is going to help the designer push the mold?

there for a reason.

Exactly, a new guy comes in and posts something very basic, we say, "ok, but try to improve next time". If we all stay really nice, each time this guy posts something, it might get a little better, but someone needs to step in and say "hey, try something crazy, you can improve slightly each time, but eventually, you're gonna need to wow us, if you want to get to the next level as a designer". Otherwise the new guys will stay at the jersey tweaking level for, like, a year. This thread is metaphor for the guy who urges you onward, although it might not always be nice, but it is for the best.

If you start a thread that says "Tampa Bay Rays Concept" and I click and see a uniform...I immediately hit back. I'm probably not alone.

Me too.

Another thing that would help is, in addition to properly naming the thread, writing a brief overview of the concept presentation...and for viewers to actually read the write-ups. One of the things that happens most is viewers asking questions about the concept presentation when the answer can be found in the poster's write-up. Insitead, some people scroll right past the write-ups and go straight to the pictures. The write-ups, if done right, help the viewer see the designer's intent--or, at the very least, allows the poster the chance to express what his/her intent is. That way, the viewer may be in a better position to C&C something, rather than throwing around a bunch of questions about why one thing's one color and why something else looks a certain way--or, as has been mentioned several times up above, just click his or her way back up out of the concept thread.

Yeah, I always read what people say before the concept presentation, and if it is a just a concept with no explanation, I already am wishing I knew what this guy was thinking. Bucco, you always have good explanations, and i appreciate that personally. I try to explain stuff, too...I just hope people read it, because sometimes I feel like I am talking to myself .

Edit: capn, I have to disagree. I enjoy clicking on one forum and seeing everything I want to see there, with a variety of different types of ideas. I thinking dividing up the concepts forum into 4 parts is waaay too specific. I like it the way it is.

[chickenfish13]

I agree with a lot of people here. The big point I agree with is the fact that people still say, " well sorry, all I have is paint." I have personally never used paint to design a logo, and I'm sure that Inkscape is waaaaaay better, and once you get used it, easier to. And if you are like " I'm comfortable with Paint, I don't wanna switch," then you can always start out your ideas in paint, and transfer them and clean 'em up and maybe expand on Inkscape. Some guys are great in paint, and they do create original logos. First name that comes to mind is Raysox. He creates original logos, using paint. Another guy, C Jay Z, he's a new member, but he is already doing creative things, once again, in paint. I'm not trying to say that Paint is, like Evil, but once you get to know Inkscape, you'll find designing way easier.

I also agree with the write-ups, I used to hate writing stuff about my designs, but now find that it helps more people to maybe see where I'm coming from.

And Elliott, sometimes I feel like I'm talking to myself too, .

Edit: I forgot to mention, something that supports my opinion, is that Nole uses Inkscape, and he's only been here half a year, and his designs are better than a lot of users, mainly because he's creative. Good work Nole.

[whchoclte]

I dont post much anymore as I really dont have time with school and business and all, but when I do come to the boards its refreshing to see a member trying their hand at something truly original. It doesnt have to be be in illustrator or inkscape. All of my work starts off in sketch form so even showing those ideas brought to life works.

A sketch can get real detailed and then traced edited etc, so by all means lets see them.

Well back to the drawing board, keep designing and maybe if I have time ill posts soem new stuff.

[vicfurth]

I may need to clarify what I was meaning...

There is definitely a time to say when we've all had to move past tweaking. All I'm saying is we should be careful not to scare away potential out of someone who's green. If specifying what kind of concept it is does the trick, I'm all for it.

[CAB]

Using paint, I started out really frustrated and I thought that all my work would turn out horrible. I learned later to keep working at it and I would get better, and I did. Now I often find myself having great ideas on paper, but I absolutely cannot make anything look as good as it does on paper in paint. No excuses here, I am just very limited with my old computer that would work with vector programs. For example: I cannot do anything with fonts and wordmarks, etc. It's very difficult to arch texts or make smooth lines; something I hope to correct in the future.

Hopefully someday I'll get Inskape (or any vector program for that matter) to make my work cleaner and have a better result. I'm not saying that the program your using effects creativity, just that sometimes it just isn't capable of some things.

[fkaKrock5cent]

Using paint, I started out really frustrated and I thought that all my work would turn out horrible. I learned later to keep working at it and I would get better, and I did. Now I often find myself having great ideas on paper, but I absolutely cannot make anything look as good as it does on paper in paint. No excuses here, I am just very limited with my old computer that would work with vector programs. For example: I cannot do anything with fonts and wordmarks, etc. It's very difficult to arch texts or make smooth lines; something I hope to correct in the future.

Hopefully someday I'll get Inskape (or any vector program for that matter) to make my work cleaner and have a better result. I'm not saying that the program your using effects creativity, just that sometimes it just isn't capable of some things.

Just so we understand you here. You're saying you don't have inkscape because you lack the system requirements?

[CAB]

My computer doesn't have enough memory to download it. It's like from '98 or something and I have a ton of memory used up, and even Paint.net runs super slow, so I doubt Inkscape would be any faster. I do hope to get a new computer in the future though.

[fkaKrock5cent]

My computer doesn't have enough memory to download it. It's like from '98 or something and I have a ton of memory used up, and even Paint.net runs super slow, so I doubt Inkscape would be any faster. I do hope to get a new computer in the future though.

OK, I just wanted to understand where you were coming from, thanks.

[maz]

I haven't read through all the posts here, but it seems the general idea is, if you don't make your own logos, your design wont get looked at.

I'm sorry, but that seems kinda... i cant find the word (curse my small vocabulary!)... but it doesn't seem right to me at all.

Maybe because im one of those guys who just does unis. I'm also one of the guys who feels most comfortable in paint. But some people, as well as not being able to make logos, just plain suck at it, but are good at unis. I think im awful at making logos. Uniforms, however, I like to think are my specialty. Why knock a guy for putting his best out there?

[chestnutz]

As far as the whole subforums thing goes, I know that since I've been hear (2 years) many people have vouched for a subforum for sigs/wallpapers AT LEAST, but it hasn't been addressed by those in charge (as far as I know).

[fkaKrock5cent]

I haven't read through all the posts here, but it seems the general idea is, if you don't make your own logos, your design wont get looked at.

I'm sorry, but that seems kinda... i cant find the word (curse my small vocabulary!)... but it doesn't seem right to me at all.

Maybe because im one of those guys who just does unis. I'm also one of the guys who feels most comfortable in paint. But some people, as well as not being able to make logos, just plain suck at it, but are good at unis. I think im awful at making logos. Uniforms, however, I like to think are my specialty. Why knock a guy for putting his best out there?

Well I think the overall goal here is to get more original logos as opposed to more uniform concepts, not just to bash guys who like paint. let's look at becoming a solid designer like riding a bike. You start with training wheels aka m.s. paint, and eventually take those off and get to the big boy trek bike, being your Paint.net & Inkscape. Now you will fall and scrape your knee (posting a rough looking, but original, logo) but thats were the community steps in to help guide you along and get you back on your feet. Then after words we all get a nice fuzzy feeling inside

[maz]

I haven't read through all the posts here, but it seems the general idea is, if you don't make your own logos, your design wont get looked at.

I'm sorry, but that seems kinda... i cant find the word (curse my small vocabulary!)... but it doesn't seem right to me at all.

Maybe because im one of those guys who just does unis. I'm also one of the guys who feels most comfortable in paint. But some people, as well as not being able to make logos, just plain suck at it, but are good at unis. I think im awful at making logos. Uniforms, however, I like to think are my specialty. Why knock a guy for putting his best out there?

Well I think the overall goal here is to get more original logos as opposed to more uniform concepts, not just to bash guys who like paint. let's look at becoming a solid designer like riding a bike. You start with training wheels aka m.s. paint, and eventually take those off and get to the big boy trek bike, being your Paint.net & Inkscape. Now you will fall and scrape your knee (th where a rough looking, but original, logo) but thats were the community steps in to help guide you along and get you back on your feet. Then after words we all get a nice fuzzy feeling inside

Thats all well and fine, but I dont see why there cant be more acceptance of people who use paint for just uniform concepts. I mean, sure, if a concept sucks, it sucks, but if its good and the person put alot of work into it, its kinda.... once again, cant find the right word... just to click right back and not even look at it just because they didn't make their own logo.

I understand if you want the guy to evolve, and in that case everyone has to start somewhere. Ignoring them because they didn't make an original logo or something is not going to do that.

[fkaKrock5cent]

I haven't read through all the posts here, but it seems the general idea is, if you don't make your own logos, your design wont get looked at.

I'm sorry, but that seems kinda... i cant find the word (curse my small vocabulary!)... but it doesn't seem right to me at all.

Maybe because im one of those guys who just does unis. I'm also one of the guys who feels most comfortable in paint. But some people, as well as not being able to make logos, just plain suck at it, but are good at unis. I think im awful at making logos. Uniforms, however, I like to think are my specialty. Why knock a guy for putting his best out there?

Well I think the overall goal here is to get more original logos as opposed to more uniform concepts, not just to bash guys who like paint. let's look at becoming a solid designer like riding a bike. You start with training wheels aka m.s. paint, and eventually take those off and get to the big boy trek bike, being your Paint.net & Inkscape. Now you will fall and scrape your knee (th where a rough looking, but original, logo) but thats were the community steps in to help guide you along and get you back on your feet. Then after words we all get a nice fuzzy feeling inside

Thats all well and fine, but I dont see why there cant be more acceptance of people who use paint for just uniform concepts. I mean, sure, if a concept sucks, it sucks, but if its good and the person put alot of work into it, its kinda.... once again, cant find the right word... just to click right back and not even look at it just because they didn't make their own logo.

I understand if you want the guy to evolve, and in that case everyone has to start somewhere. Ignoring them because they didn't make an original logo or something is not going to do that.

I don't think the goal of this is to ignore people. It's to encourage them to move on to the next step. The uniform designs have their place, don't get me wrong, but if that's all you do then the concepts section becomes less fun.

[maz]

I haven't read through all the posts here, but it seems the general idea is, if you don't make your own logos, your design wont get looked at.

I'm sorry, but that seems kinda... i cant find the word (curse my small vocabulary!)... but it doesn't seem right to me at all.

Maybe because im one of those guys who just does unis. I'm also one of the guys who feels most comfortable in paint. But some people, as well as not being able to make logos, just plain suck at it, but are good at unis. I think im awful at making logos. Uniforms, however, I like to think are my specialty. Why knock a guy for putting his best out there?

Well I think the overall goal here is to get more original logos as opposed to more uniform concepts, not just to bash guys who like paint. let's look at becoming a solid designer like riding a bike. You start with training wheels aka m.s. paint, and eventually take those off and get to the big boy trek bike, being your Paint.net & Inkscape. Now you will fall and scrape your knee (th where a rough looking, but original, logo) but thats were the community steps in to help guide you along and get you back on your feet. Then after words we all get a nice fuzzy feeling inside

Thats all well and fine, but I dont see why there cant be more acceptance of people who use paint for just uniform concepts. I mean, sure, if a concept sucks, it sucks, but if its good and the person put alot of work into it, its kinda.... once again, cant find the right word... just to click right back and not even look at it just because they didn't make their own logo.

I understand if you want the guy to evolve, and in that case everyone has to start somewhere. Ignoring them because they didn't make an original logo or something is not going to do that.

I don't think the goal of this is to ignore people. It's to encourage them to move on to the next step. The uniform designs have their place, don't get me wrong, but if that's all you do then the concepts section becomes less fun.

But people in this thread just admitted that they will click right back and not even look at the concept further. Thats pretty much ignoring them. Whether thats the goal or not, that's whats going on. Just uni concepts might make it less fun, but its just as not fun, or even less, to work on something and get no CnC or anything in return.

And I don't like how this is being perceived as a "progress". Like I said before, if someone feels most comfortable just doing unis in paint, I think you should let them do that, and not treat them like they're just straying behind, because they're not, they're just doing what they're best at, and its not fair to knock someone for it.

[fkaKrock5cent]

I haven't read through all the posts here, but it seems the general idea is, if you don't make your own logos, your design wont get looked at.

I'm sorry, but that seems kinda... i cant find the word (curse my small vocabulary!)... but it doesn't seem right to me at all.

Maybe because im one of those guys who just does unis. I'm also one of the guys who feels most comfortable in paint. But some people, as well as not being able to make logos, just plain suck at it, but are good at unis. I think im awful at making logos. Uniforms, however, I like to think are my specialty. Why knock a guy for putting his best out there?

Well I think the overall goal here is to get more original logos as opposed to more uniform concepts, not just to bash guys who like paint. let's look at becoming a solid designer like riding a bike. You start with training wheels aka m.s. paint, and eventually take those off and get to the big boy trek bike, being your Paint.net & Inkscape. Now you will fall and scrape your knee (th where a rough looking, but original, logo) but thats were the community steps in to help guide you along and get you back on your feet. Then after words we all get a nice fuzzy feeling inside

Thats all well and fine, but I dont see why there cant be more acceptance of people who use paint for just uniform concepts. I mean, sure, if a concept sucks, it sucks, but if its good and the person put alot of work into it, its kinda.... once again, cant find the right word... just to click right back and not even look at it just because they didn't make their own logo.

I understand if you want the guy to evolve, and in that case everyone has to start somewhere. Ignoring them because they didn't make an original logo or something is not going to do that.

I don't think the goal of this is to ignore people. It's to encourage them to move on to the next step. The uniform designs have their place, don't get me wrong, but if that's all you do then the concepts section becomes less fun.

But people in this thread just admitted that they will click right back and not even look at the concept further. Thats pretty much ignoring them. Whether thats the goal or not, that's whats going on. Just uni concepts might make it less fun, but its just as not fun, or even less, to work on something and get no CnC or anything in return.

And I don't like how this is being perceived as a "progress". Like I said before, if someone feels most comfortable just doing unis in paint, I think you should let them do that, and not treat them like they're just straying behind, because they're not, they're just doing what they're best at, and its not fair to knock someone for it.

I think what they are saying is that a uniform concept shows less effort, which, having now done both, I agree wholeheartedly with. Not that uniforms are easy but it is a lot more effort designing an original logo and making it look good.

[maz]

I haven't read through all the posts here, but it seems the general idea is, if you don't make your own logos, your design wont get looked at.

I'm sorry, but that seems kinda... i cant find the word (curse my small vocabulary!)... but it doesn't seem right to me at all.

Maybe because im one of those guys who just does unis. I'm also one of the guys who feels most comfortable in paint. But some people, as well as not being able to make logos, just plain suck at it, but are good at unis. I think im awful at making logos. Uniforms, however, I like to think are my specialty. Why knock a guy for putting his best out there?

Well I think the overall goal here is to get more original logos as opposed to more uniform concepts, not just to bash guys who like paint. let's look at becoming a solid designer like riding a bike. You start with training wheels aka m.s. paint, and eventually take those off and get to the big boy trek bike, being your Paint.net & Inkscape. Now you will fall and scrape your knee (th where a rough looking, but original, logo) but thats were the community steps in to help guide you along and get you back on your feet. Then after words we all get a nice fuzzy feeling inside

Thats all well and fine, but I dont see why there cant be more acceptance of people who use paint for just uniform concepts. I mean, sure, if a concept sucks, it sucks, but if its good and the person put alot of work into it, its kinda.... once again, cant find the right word... just to click right back and not even look at it just because they didn't make their own logo.

I understand if you want the guy to evolve, and in that case everyone has to start somewhere. Ignoring them because they didn't make an original logo or something is not going to do that.

I don't think the goal of this is to ignore people. It's to encourage them to move on to the next step. The uniform designs have their place, don't get me wrong, but if that's all you do then the concepts section becomes less fun.

But people in this thread just admitted that they will click right back and not even look at the concept further. Thats pretty much ignoring them. Whether thats the goal or not, that's whats going on. Just uni concepts might make it less fun, but its just as not fun, or even less, to work on something and get no CnC or anything in return.

And I don't like how this is being perceived as a "progress". Like I said before, if someone feels most comfortable just doing unis in paint, I think you should let them do that, and not treat them like they're just straying behind, because they're not, they're just doing what they're best at, and its not fair to knock someone for it.

I think what they are saying is that a uniform concept shows less effort, which, having now done both, I agree wholeheartedly with. Not that uniforms are easy but it is a lot more effort designing an original logo and making it look good.

But what I think is being misunderstood is that just because its just a uniform concept isn't just because it requires less effort (which isn't entirely true), and shouldn't be treated as such.