Borderline Future NFL Hall of Famers

[STL FANATIC]

I'm also biased, but I happen to agree.

Warner was absolutely elite from 1999-2001. He was not only elite, but he was the best in the league (that will always be arguable, and he was more than in the conversation).

From about 2006 to now he's been putting up massive numbers with the Cardinals and he's transformed that team. In a lot of other markets he'd have gotten more attention. And now that he's gotten a pitiful franchise to the Super Bowl and has them as contenders again, he's finally starting to get that attention.

What more would you have him do?

Writing me a large check would be a good start. Look dude, I said the St. Louis writer made a good case. What more do you want? In my opinion, two elite years does not make a hall of fame career. Here's the way I see it; if we need to "present a case" for a player then that is pretty much already telling us that the player in question is borderline. To give you an example, do I need to make a case on why Manning or Brady should be in the hall of fame? Do I need to argue the merit of Joe Montana or John Elway? Dan Marino? Nope. That's how I decide if I think a player is a hall of famer or not. Maybe my standards are too high but I believe that if we have to debate the merit of the player then the player probably isn't HOF material. It's just my opinion. It's not like I have a vote or anything.

I wasn't trying to be snippy. Plus I was posting while you responded to the column... hadn't seen your response to it yet. I was more just kinda reiterating a similar case as my own for him. The "you" was more of a collective "you" than an "infared" you.

In any case, I see your point, but I think that gets hard to enforce as there will just inherently develop a sliding scale and varying levels on who deserves to be in.

Additionally (and without that snippy nature), I'm curious which of Warner's two years you see as his elite two? I see him as having had 5 for sure, one in progress, and a few other very strong years. Still, I can see where the issue of longevity and sustained performance comes into play with him.

[rams80]

Prior to this season, Warner had 4 elite years (sort of)

1999, 2000 (sort of-missed a few games due to injury), 2001, 2008.

Admittedly, these are very, very good years, but the lack of good years between 2001 and 2008 works against Warner.

[GFB]

My thoughts on these players.

QB-Simms, Plunkett

(Danny White had three great seasons guiding DAL to the NFC title game three straight years, but three years is not enough)

No on all of them.

RB- OJ Anderson, Ricky Watters, Eddie George, Terrell Davis

Eddie George maybe. I'd need to see his stats. Davis had a Gale Sayers type career. Great but short. His problem is that he isn't Gale Sayers.

WR- Cliff Branch, Herman Moore, Irving Fryar, Gary Clark

All of them are borderline at best. I remember Branch as one of the top receivers of his era but I don't know if he has the numbers.

OL- Mike Kenn

Who? He fails the "Infrared41 lineman rule" which states "if you played the O-line and everyone knows who you are then you're probably HOF worthy.

DL-Cortez Kennedy, Russell Maryland (not on the HOF list), Dexter Manley, Clyde Simmons, Charles Mann

A case could probably be made for Kennedy.

LB- Darryl Tallet, Hardy Nickerson, Kevin Greene, Greg Lloyd (not on the HOF list)

None of the above.

DB- Kenny Easley, Carnell Lake, Lewis/Minnifield

Kenny Easley should be in. He was easily one of the top safeties of his era. Albert Lewis of the Chiefs? He was one of the best in the game for a while in KC. Frank Minnifield is one of my all-time favorite Browns but he's nowhere near a HOF DB.

• Hines Ward: Being a Steeler with two rings will help.

• Edgerrin James: Tough call. He has the numbers but was he ever that dominant? I'd say yes based on his numbers.

• Kurt Warner: The classic case of close but no cigar. Again, he's Boomer Esiason to Manning and Brady's Elway and Montana.

• Brian Urlacher: He's been a Bears LB for a long time. Isn't that all it takes?

• Charles Woodson: Too soon to say. He'll probably get in.

• Fred Taylor: He's kind of in the Edgerrin James category.

• Jeff Saturday: Passes the "infrared41 lineman test."

• Orlando Pace: See above.

Hey infrared... I know this is an extreme longshot, but I would love to see Chris Spielman get in. As a fellow Buckeye, would you throw him a bone and put him in?

As for another Lions longshot, Herman Moore has a slightly better and more deserving resume, finishing his career with 670 receptions for 9,174 yards and 62 touchdowns. He went over 100 receptions 3 times, including a then-NFL record 123 receptions in 1995. 4 consecutive Pro-Bowls and 3 consecutive First Team NFL Selections.

[Saintsfan]

I do see the case against Warner, but this is a guy who has started 3 Superbowls (albeit losing 2), and has put up absolute stellar numbers. I agree that he has not always been consistent. But as I say, if the HOF is just about numbers, why not set up the goalposts now and only allow players who meet those qualifications. I think he is more than an Esiason, whilst not being as much as a Marino or Elway.

On Drew Brees, his numbers are up there with Peyton Manning and Brady. If his career carries on as it is, he should be a lock.

Edgerrin James is an interesting case. He is a guy who I would suggest has suffered for moving around tooo many teams, in terms of his instant reputation. Hes done great for a short time at a few teams, but that suggests that maybe he is not good enough for a team to spend big big bucks on him, which raises a question mark?

Incidentally there are players early on in there career who I would almost guarantee a place for already. Adrian Peterson's rookie year should have him in even if he retired now.

Plunkett is a guy I would give serious consideration to. Again compelling back story, was a leader of his franchise, in a period of success for a franchise that has not been consistently succesful since.

Speaking of which, Tom Flores must be able to make something of a case for inclusion, fair enogh not a great win loss record, but 2 rings, (4 including player and assistant coach rings) nearly 100 wins, 8-3 record post season.

[DDR]

As far as current players go, I don't think there are too many borderline players. For the most part, it's pretty cut and dry as to who is going into the Hall of Fame.

That being said, I can think of a few active players who may (or may not) be able to get in...

? Hines Ward

? Edgerrin James

? Kurt Warner

? Kevin Mawae

? Olin Kreutz

? Brian Urlacher

? Charles Woodson

? Fred Taylor

? Adrian Wilson

? Ty Law

? Brian Dawkins

? Jeff Saturday

? Orlando Pace

? Drew Brees

? Steve Hutchinson

Your post does not make any sense. Read your first statement, then the one with your list.

How do do you differentiate "active players" from "current players"? Every player on your list is current and active, in the "NFL Reserved/Retired" list. Just some guys are only IR.

What the Hell are you talking about? Every player on my list has played in the NFL this season. Erego, they are current and active.

There's this technique?it's called "reading".

No, he's right. You said that there aren't too many borderline current players and that it's pretty "cut and dried"... then went on to list a lot of borderline active players. I think the contradiction was more in the semantics rather than the syntax though.

Yeah, but he said "with that being said." If you've seen the finale of Curb, you know that he covered his bases.

[infrared41]

Hey infrared... I know this is an extreme longshot, but I would love to see Chris Spielman get in. As a fellow Buckeye, would you throw him a bone and put him in?

As for another Lions longshot, Herman Moore has a slightly better and more deserving resume, finishing his career with 670 receptions for 9,174 yards and 62 touchdowns. He went over 100 receptions 3 times, including a then-NFL record 123 receptions in 1995. 4 consecutive Pro-Bowls and 3 consecutive First Team NFL Selections.

No, I can't say that I would. Spielman was a very solid NFL linebacker but he's just not HOF material. He's going to have to settle for having his name and number up at the horseshoe.

I think Herman Moore might get some consideration. Moore was a great receiver. He also had the misfortune of playing in the same era as Jerry Rice so his talents were overshadowed.

[DDR]

Hey infrared... I know this is an extreme longshot, but I would love to see Chris Spielman get in. As a fellow Buckeye, would you throw him a bone and put him in?

As for another Lions longshot, Herman Moore has a slightly better and more deserving resume, finishing his career with 670 receptions for 9,174 yards and 62 touchdowns. He went over 100 receptions 3 times, including a then-NFL record 123 receptions in 1995. 4 consecutive Pro-Bowls and 3 consecutive First Team NFL Selections.

No, I can't say that I would. Spielman was a very solid NFL linebacker but he's just not HOF material. He's going to have to settle for having his name and number up at the horseshoe.

I think Herman Moore might get some consideration. Moore was a great receiver. He also had the misfortune of playing in the same era as Jerry Rice so his talents were overshadowed.

Plus, he was always overshadowed by Barry Sanders. Plus, the Lions rarely being one of the league's better teams in that era didn't help. He was super-productive in relative obscurity.

[infrared41]

I do see the case against Warner, but this is a guy who has started 3 Superbowls (albeit losing 2), and has put up absolute stellar numbers. I agree that he has not always been consistent. But as I say, if the HOF is just about numbers, why not set up the goalposts now and only allow players who meet those qualifications. I think he is more than an Esiason, whilst not being as much as a Marino or Elway.

Incidentally there are players early on in there career who I would almost guarantee a place for already. Adrian Peterson's rookie year should have him in even if he retired now.

Plunkett is a guy I would give serious consideration to. Again compelling back story, was a leader of his franchise, in a period of success for a franchise that has not been consistently succesful since.

God where do I start? I guess we'll begin with Warner...

You are really stuck on that Super Bowl thing aren't you? I know the Dan Patricks of the world think that rings are the only thing that matters when judging a QB's career but the HOF isn't a team award. Kurt Warner didn't win his ring. The St. Louis Rams did. The HOF is an individual award not a reward for playing on championship teams. The ring is the award you get for playing on a championship team. The HOF is the reward you get for an extraordinary career. One should not influence the other.

For example: Franco Harris and Rocky Bleier both have 4 Super Bowl rings. Does that make both of them hall of famers? Charles Haley has five SB rings. Is he a hall of famer? There are guys you have never heard of walking around with two or three Super Bowl rings. Should we pull them out of obscurity and put them in the hall of fame? I understand that QB is the marquee position in football but QBs do not win Super Bowls all by themselves. If they did then Dan Marino would have 8 or 9 rings right now. So would Dan Fouts.

The point is that you can't reward a borderline HOF player with induction because his team won a championship. Yes, Warner was the QB for the Rams when they won the Super Bowl but do they get there at all without Marshall Faulk? Or without Ricky Proehl? If memory serves, Proehl made two huge catches that postseason and without those catches we aren't even talking about Kurt Warner "winning" a Super Bowl.

Now on to Adrian Peterson...

No offense, but your remark about Adrian Peterson getting in the HOF based on his rookie season alone may be the silliest sports related post ever written here. And believe me, around here that's saying something.

OK let's talk about Jim Plunkett...

Just so we're clear here; a compelling story is not what gets you into the Hall of Fame. An extraordinary playing career does. Jim Plunkett did not have anything resembling an extraordinary career. Dig around and you'll find plenty of heartwarming stories about NFL players beating the odds etc. They're very nice stories too but they're superfluous bull- when considering a player for induction in the HOF. Give Jim Plukett Dan Fouts's stats and we have something. Until then, he was a journeyman who made good for a couple seasons with The Raiders. And for the record, The Raiders from the 60's right up to their recent demise were "consistently successful." It wasn't like they sucked, Plunkett showed up, they won two Super Bowls, Plunkett left, and they sucked again.

Jim Plunkett was never the "leader" of that franchise. Hell, he wasn't even the starter at the beginning of either of his Super Bowl seasons.

Finally, you may want to brush up on your NFL history if for no other reason than it will keep you from saying things like The Raiders were never consistently successful after Plunkett left. The Raiders made the playoffs another 9 times and went to another Super Bowl after Plunkett's 1983 season.

[Jigga]

IMHO, the Pro Football Hall of Fame lets in too many players has, becoming a Hall of Very Good instead of a shrine for the truly elite among the greatest players to ever lace 'em up.

That some of the names being thrown around this thread are even considered borderline candidates really cements this.

[infrared41]

IMHO, the Pro Football Hall of Fame lets in too many players has, becoming a Hall of Very Good instead of a shrine for the truly elite among the greatest players to ever lace 'em up.

That some of the names being thrown around this thread are even considered borderline candidates really cements this.

I totally agree. Even the guys I said a case could be made for are hardly what I'd call HOF material. My personal standard for induction wouldn't let most of these guys on the initial list.

But hey, if you have a couple rings then come join the party.

[DDR]

Perhaps the thread could've benefited from that caveat. Let's use this as a new jumping off point:

Yes, the NFL Hall of Fame lets in too many players. Based on the current "standards for enshrinement," which current players do you feel a case could be made for?

[NEW.ERA]

If we're going to decide to throw kickers in the HOF. (Yes I know it's very doubtful but you can't win a championship without a kicker)

Matt Stover, Adam Vinateri, Gary Anderson (But alone his missed kick in the 98' NFC Championship Vikings fans won't like seeing him in), Morten Anderson NFL's All Time Leading scorer.

And defensive linemen

Jim Marshall not a fringe HOF by far but when you were the previous NFL Ironman and one of the anchors on the Purple People Eaters but he will almost always be remembered by the Wrong Way Run.

[raysox]

What about some former Bucs? The ones off the top of my head are Derrick Brooks, John Lynch, and Warren Sapp.

[chuckymack]

As far as current players go, I don't think there are too many borderline players. For the most part, it's pretty cut and dry as to who is going into the Hall of Fame.

That being said, I can think of a few active players who may (or may not) be able to get in...

? Hines Ward

? Edgerrin James

? Kurt Warner

? Kevin Mawae

? Olin Kreutz

? Brian Urlacher

? Charles Woodson

? Fred Taylor

? Adrian Wilson

? Ty Law

? Brian Dawkins

? Jeff Saturday

? Orlando Pace

? Drew Brees

? Steve Hutchinson

Your post does not make any sense. Read your first statement, then the one with your list.

How do do you differentiate "active players" from "current players"? Every player on your list is current and active, in the "NFL Reserved/Retired" list. Just some guys are only IR.

What the Hell are you talking about? Every player on my list has played in the NFL this season. Erego, they are current and active.

There's this technique?it's called "reading".

No, he's right. You said that there aren't too many borderline current players and that it's pretty "cut and dried"... then went on to list a lot of borderline active players. I think the contradiction was more in the semantics rather than the syntax though.

Yeah, but he said "with that being said." If you've seen the finale of Curb, you know that he covered his bases.

Thanks for the backup, Duderino. I know it may seem like a lot, but there are over 1500 players in the NFL. The fifteen players I listed make up less than one percent of the total NFL rosters.

[chestnutz]

My thoughts on these players.

QB-Simms, Plunkett

(Danny White had three great seasons guiding DAL to the NFC title game three straight years, but three years is not enough)

No on all of them.

RB- OJ Anderson, Ricky Watters, Eddie George, Terrell Davis

Eddie George maybe. I'd need to see his stats. Davis had a Gale Sayers type career. Great but short. His problem is that he isn't Gale Sayers.

WR- Cliff Branch, Herman Moore, Irving Fryar, Gary Clark

All of them are borderline at best. I remember Branch as one of the top receivers of his era but I don't know if he has the numbers.

OL- Mike Kenn

Who? He fails the "Infrared41 lineman rule" which states "if you played the O-line and everyone knows who you are then you're probably HOF worthy.

DL-Cortez Kennedy, Russell Maryland (not on the HOF list), Dexter Manley, Clyde Simmons, Charles Mann

A case could probably be made for Kennedy.

LB- Darryl Tallet, Hardy Nickerson, Kevin Greene, Greg Lloyd (not on the HOF list)

None of the above.

DB- Kenny Easley, Carnell Lake, Lewis/Minnifield

Kenny Easley should be in. He was easily one of the top safeties of his era. Albert Lewis of the Chiefs? He was one of the best in the game for a while in KC. Frank Minnifield is one of my all-time favorite Browns but he's nowhere near a HOF DB.

? Hines Ward: Being a Steeler with two rings will help.

? Edgerrin James: Tough call. He has the numbers but was he ever that dominant? I'd say yes based on his numbers.

? Kurt Warner: The classic case of close but no cigar. Again, he's Boomer Esiason to Manning and Brady's Elway and Montana.

? Brian Urlacher: He's been a Bears LB for a long time. Isn't that all it takes?

? Charles Woodson: Too soon to say. He'll probably get in.

? Fred Taylor: He's kind of in the Edgerrin James category.

? Jeff Saturday: Passes the "infrared41 lineman test."

? Orlando Pace: See above.

Hey infrared... I know this is an extreme longshot, but I would love to see Chris Spielman get in. As a fellow Buckeye, would you throw him a bone and put him in?

As for another Lions longshot, Herman Moore has a slightly better and more deserving resume, finishing his career with 670 receptions for 9,174 yards and 62 touchdowns. He went over 100 receptions 3 times, including a then-NFL record 123 receptions in 1995. 4 consecutive Pro-Bowls and 3 consecutive First Team NFL Selections.

Ha, then why do you have a Michigan avatar? Confused!

I wouldn't say any of those 3 Bucs should get in, raysox. Sapp's overrated, Brooks only had a couple years of being an elite LB, and Lynch simply hasn't been dominant enough for too long, and is really only a big hitter. Yeah, that Bucs defense was a great TEAM to win the super bowl, but didn't have HoF-quality defenders IMO.

[GFB]

My thoughts on these players.

QB-Simms, Plunkett

(Danny White had three great seasons guiding DAL to the NFC title game three straight years, but three years is not enough)

No on all of them.

RB- OJ Anderson, Ricky Watters, Eddie George, Terrell Davis

Eddie George maybe. I'd need to see his stats. Davis had a Gale Sayers type career. Great but short. His problem is that he isn't Gale Sayers.

WR- Cliff Branch, Herman Moore, Irving Fryar, Gary Clark

All of them are borderline at best. I remember Branch as one of the top receivers of his era but I don't know if he has the numbers.

OL- Mike Kenn

Who? He fails the "Infrared41 lineman rule" which states "if you played the O-line and everyone knows who you are then you're probably HOF worthy.

DL-Cortez Kennedy, Russell Maryland (not on the HOF list), Dexter Manley, Clyde Simmons, Charles Mann

A case could probably be made for Kennedy.

LB- Darryl Tallet, Hardy Nickerson, Kevin Greene, Greg Lloyd (not on the HOF list)

None of the above.

DB- Kenny Easley, Carnell Lake, Lewis/Minnifield

Kenny Easley should be in. He was easily one of the top safeties of his era. Albert Lewis of the Chiefs? He was one of the best in the game for a while in KC. Frank Minnifield is one of my all-time favorite Browns but he's nowhere near a HOF DB.

? Hines Ward: Being a Steeler with two rings will help.

? Edgerrin James: Tough call. He has the numbers but was he ever that dominant? I'd say yes based on his numbers.

? Kurt Warner: The classic case of close but no cigar. Again, he's Boomer Esiason to Manning and Brady's Elway and Montana.

? Brian Urlacher: He's been a Bears LB for a long time. Isn't that all it takes?

? Charles Woodson: Too soon to say. He'll probably get in.

? Fred Taylor: He's kind of in the Edgerrin James category.

? Jeff Saturday: Passes the "infrared41 lineman test."

? Orlando Pace: See above.

Hey infrared... I know this is an extreme longshot, but I would love to see Chris Spielman get in. As a fellow Buckeye, would you throw him a bone and put him in?

As for another Lions longshot, Herman Moore has a slightly better and more deserving resume, finishing his career with 670 receptions for 9,174 yards and 62 touchdowns. He went over 100 receptions 3 times, including a then-NFL record 123 receptions in 1995. 4 consecutive Pro-Bowls and 3 consecutive First Team NFL Selections.

Ha, then why do you have a Michigan avatar? Confused!

I wouldn't say any of those 3 Bucs should get in, raysox. Sapp's overrated, Brooks only had a couple years of being an elite LB, and Lynch simply hasn't been dominant enough for too long, and is really only a big hitter. Yeah, that Bucs defense was a great TEAM to win the super bowl, but didn't have HoF-quality defenders IMO.

Umm, Spielman was a Buckeye... infrared is a Buckeye (fan).

[Saintsfan]

I do see the case against Warner, but this is a guy who has started 3 Superbowls (albeit losing 2), and has put up absolute stellar numbers. I agree that he has not always been consistent. But as I say, if the HOF is just about numbers, why not set up the goalposts now and only allow players who meet those qualifications. I think he is more than an Esiason, whilst not being as much as a Marino or Elway.

Incidentally there are players early on in there career who I would almost guarantee a place for already. Adrian Peterson's rookie year should have him in even if he retired now.

Plunkett is a guy I would give serious consideration to. Again compelling back story, was a leader of his franchise, in a period of success for a franchise that has not been consistently succesful since.

God where do I start? I guess we'll begin with Warner...

You are really stuck on that Super Bowl thing aren't you? I know the Dan Patricks of the world think that rings are the only thing that matters when judging a QB's career but the HOF isn't a team award. Kurt Warner didn't win his ring. The St. Louis Rams did. The HOF is an individual award not a reward for playing on championship teams. The ring is the award you get for playing on a championship team. The HOF is the reward you get for an extraordinary career. One should not influence the other.

For example: Franco Harris and Rocky Bleier both have 4 Super Bowl rings. Does that make both of them hall of famers? Charles Haley has five SB rings. Is he a hall of famer? There are guys you have never heard of walking around with two or three Super Bowl rings. Should we pull them out of obscurity and put them in the hall of fame? I understand that QB is the marquee position in football but QBs do not win Super Bowls all by themselves. If they did then Dan Marino would have 8 or 9 rings right now. So would Dan Fouts.

The point is that you can't reward a borderline HOF player with induction because his team won a championship. Yes, Warner was the QB for the Rams when they won the Super Bowl but do they get there at all without Marshall Faulk? Or without Ricky Proehl? If memory serves, Proehl made two huge catches that postseason and without those catches we aren't even talking about Kurt Warner "winning" a Super Bowl.

Now on to Adrian Peterson...

No offense, but your remark about Adrian Peterson getting in the HOF based on his rookie season alone may be the silliest sports related post ever written here. And believe me, around here that's saying something.

OK let's talk about Jim Plunkett...

Just so we're clear here; a compelling story is not what gets you into the Hall of Fame. An extraordinary playing career does. Jim Plunkett did not have anything resembling an extraordinary career. Dig around and you'll find plenty of heartwarming stories about NFL players beating the odds etc. They're very nice stories too but they're superfluous bull- when considering a player for induction in the HOF. Give Jim Plukett Dan Fouts's stats and we have something. Until then, he was a journeyman who made good for a couple seasons with The Raiders. And for the record, The Raiders from the 60's right up to their recent demise were "consistently successful." It wasn't like they sucked, Plunkett showed up, they won two Super Bowls, Plunkett left, and they sucked again.

Jim Plunkett was never the "leader" of that franchise. Hell, he wasn't even the starter at the beginning of either of his Super Bowl seasons.

Finally, you may want to brush up on your NFL history if for no other reason than it will keep you from saying things like The Raiders were never consistently successful after Plunkett left. The Raiders made the playoffs another 9 times and went to another Super Bowl after Plunkett's 1983 season.

To defend myself, I didn't say that a compelling backstory alone is a qualifier for the HOF. Warner has 2 league MVP awards, its certainly difficult to say he wasn't a vital player in the best team in the NFL around the turn of the century.

I am not saying a ring is the arbiter of these things. Its a combination of things.

On Peterson, I can't think of an NFL player in the last decade, possibly longer, who has had a bigger impact in there rookie year, and remember AP was injured for part of that year. I think part of entry into the hall should be on that sort of achievement. To my mind he is the premier running back in the game right now.

And nine playoff appearances in 26 years is consistency?

I have to say though I do agree that in an ideal world the Hall of Fame would be a place for only the most elite of players. The fact remains though that that is not what the HoF is right now.

[The_Admiral]

"Adrian Peterson would be a Hall of Famer on his rookie season alone" is a Bad Sports Thought. I think we need a Bad Sports Thought Aggregator, like the one for logo comments.

[infrared41]

To defend myself, I didn't say that a compelling backstory alone is a qualifier for the HOF. Warner has 2 league MVP awards, its certainly difficult to say he wasn't a vital player in the best team in the NFL around the turn of the century.

I am not saying a ring is the arbiter of these things. Its a combination of things.

On Peterson, I can't think of an NFL player in the last decade, possibly longer, who has had a bigger impact in there rookie year, and remember AP was injured for part of that year. I think part of entry into the hall should be on that sort of achievement. To my mind he is the premier running back in the game right now.

And nine playoff appearances in 26 years is consistency?

I have to say though I do agree that in an ideal world the Hall of Fame would be a place for only the most elite of players. The fact remains though that that is not what the HoF is right now.

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't you say this about Jim Plunkett?

Plunkett is a guy I would give serious consideration to. Again compelling back story. was a leader of his franchise, in a period of success for a franchise that has not been consistently succesful since.

Outside of his "story" and his Super Bowl rings what other reason is there to consider him?

On The Raiders consistency; up until their total meltdown over the past 7 seasons, the Raiders were competitive far more often than they weren't. You see today's Raiders and think that represents the franchise. Anyone with even a rudimentary knowledge of NFL history knows that The Raiders since their last Super Bowl appearance are not at all representative of the franchise overall. But that's all beside the point...

If you really believe that Adrian Peterson should get into the HOF based on his rookie season alone then, and I mean this with all due respect, you have no earthly idea what you're talking about and I cannot take seriously anything you say about The NFL. No offense, but it's just plain stupid and it makes you look totally clueless. You need to move that over to where it belongs; in the WillMorris section of the NCAA thread.

[DG_ThenNowForever]

Kurt Warner is Warren Moon with a championship. Of course he belongs.