Borderline Future NFL Hall of Famers

[infrared41]

Kurt Warner is Warren Moon with a championship. Of course he belongs.

Not really. Warren Moon's stats dwarf Kurt Warner's and Warren Moon didn't disappear for 5 seasons right in the middle of his career.

Pro Football Reference lists the following QBs as "similar players" to Kurt Warner. Daunte Culpepper, Jeff Garcia, Trent Green, Rich Gannon, Bert Jones, Jim Zorn, Greg Landry, Drew Brees, Joe Theismann, Jake Plummer.

Pro Football Reference lists the following QBs as "similar players" to Warren Moon. Bob Griese*, Drew Bledsoe, Terry Bradshaw*, Boomer Esiason, Ken Anderson, Dan Fouts*, Jim Kelly*, Len Dawson*, Joe Montana*, Sonny Jurgensen*

(*Denotes HOF.)

Notice a difference?

I'd say Kurt Warner is Bert Jones with a championship and that neither of them belong. Seriously D_G, there's no comparison between Moon and Warner.

[DEAD!]

I'd say Kurt Warner is Bert Jones with a championship and that neither of them belong. Seriously D_G, there's no comparison between Moon and Warner.

I say no QB should have ever be compared to Warren Moon.

[BBTV]

It seems to me that the NFL has the lowest standards of any of the big 4 HOFs. I haven't done any research, nor can I sit here and list you names of people who shouldn't be in, but the fact that we're even discussing some of these people says something about the integrity of the hall.

[The_Admiral]

Kurt Warner's backstory is compelling, his three-year run with the Rams was amazing, and his comeback with the '08 Cardinals after falling off the face of the planet for six years was pretty big too, but the fact remains that he fell off the face of the planet for six years. Yeah, I know he still racked up stats here and there on a few mediocre Cardinals teams, but he kept losing his starting gig to the likes of McCown and Leinart and generally looked like a guy hanging on too long. If you have to count the whole run and not just the highs, the sum of his career isn't a Hall of Fame one.

Canton lets too many people in, but the Hockey Hall of Fame is a turnstile. Glenn Anderson, for crying out loud. I think the problem with enshrining football players is that positions are so specialized and in some cases very difficult to quantify. With the exception of pitchers, goaltenders, and Rod Langway, the players in the discussions for basketball/hockey/baseball Halls are guys who were really good on both sides of the game and racked up gaudy scoring numbers. How do you separate the best from the great with offensive linemen? It's not so cut and dried.

[LEWJ]

Well I personally think Orlando Pace, and Charles Woodson are both locks for the HOF.

Woodson is still one of the most dominant corners in the league, maybe even moreso than early in his career.

He has more interceptions his 4 years in Green Bay [combined], than all his years in Oakland combined [8 years].

And it's hard to judge offensive linemen at times. Stats don't show you much. But from what I've seen, Pace has always been a beast when it comes to driving into defenders.

[infrared41]

Kurt Warner's backstory is compelling, his three-year run with the Rams was amazing, and his comeback with the '08 Cardinals after falling off the face of the planet for six years was pretty big too, but the fact remains that he fell off the face of the planet for six years. Yeah, I know he still racked up stats here and there on a few mediocre Cardinals teams, but he kept losing his starting gig to the likes of McCown and Leinart and generally looked like a guy hanging on too long. If you have to count the whole run and not just the highs, the sum of his career isn't a Hall of Fame one.

Exactly. Everyone is in love with him because of what he did with The Cardinals last season. Let's be honest, if Arizona loses the NFC title game last season no one is talking about Warner as a HOF QB. All of this is because Warner "resurfaced" on the face of the planet for one season and took Arizona to the Super Bowl. Everyone forgot those six lost seasons and said "Hey maybe Dan Patrick is right. It is all about the rings. Warner has played in three Super Bowls and they were 7 years apart so he must be a HOF caliber QB." Well folks, it wasn't like Warner was tearing up the league in those 7 years between Super Bowl appearances.

[BBTV]

Well if we're talking offensive linemen, and acknowledging that the NFL HOF lets a ton of people in, then I would have to nominate Jon Runyan.

Drafted in 1996, he played in 190 straight games at offensive tackle. 190. For an offensive lineman, that's unbelievable. Actually, for anyone, that's extremely impressive. The guy played through broken hands, and even a broken tailbone. Most recently, he was playing on knees that required micro fracture surgery, forcing the Eagles to not resign him, and thus ending his streak (he just signed with the Chargers, but I'm not sure if he'll really be able to contribute after that surgery.)

He played on the '99 Titans AFC champion team, then signed with the 5-11 Eagles. They then went 11-5, and the stability he brought to the OL was one of the biggest reasons. It's been written that he's one of the best screen-pass blockers of all time, and he's just a mean, nasty dude (on the field.) He's also been called one of the dirtiest players, though he hasn't gotten too many personal fouls in the last four or five seasons.

He and Tra Thomas bookended the Eagles OL for nine seasons. I don't think it's crazy to at least add Tra Thomas' name somewhere in the discussion, but I think that Runyan needs to get serious consideration.

EDIT: according to wikipedia, he's also the last active player who played for the Houston Oilers. Not that it means anything, but it's interesting nonetheless.

[infrared41]

Well I personally think Orlando Pace, and Charles Woodson are both locks for the HOF.

Woodson is still one of the most dominant corners in the league, maybe even moreso than early in his career.

He has more interceptions his 4 years in Green Bay [combined], than all his years in Oakland combined [8 years].

And it's hard to judge offensive linemen at times. Stats don't show you much. But from what I've seen, Pace has always been a beast when it comes to driving into defenders.

It's actually pretty easy if you use my formula. It works like this; if everyone still knows who he is after 8-10 years in the league then he's probably HOF material.

Example: Everyone knows Orlando Pace. Probably no one except serious Broncos fans can tell you anything about Russ Hochstein or Brandon Gorin. For example, did you know Hochstein is in his 9th season? Gorin is in his 8th. Before I picked Denver as the random team I was going to use to look for lineman, I had never heard of these guys. I guess they must be pretty decent to have lasted as long as they have.

[chestnutz]

My thoughts on these players.

QB-Simms, Plunkett

(Danny White had three great seasons guiding DAL to the NFC title game three straight years, but three years is not enough)

No on all of them.

RB- OJ Anderson, Ricky Watters, Eddie George, Terrell Davis

Eddie George maybe. I'd need to see his stats. Davis had a Gale Sayers type career. Great but short. His problem is that he isn't Gale Sayers.

WR- Cliff Branch, Herman Moore, Irving Fryar, Gary Clark

All of them are borderline at best. I remember Branch as one of the top receivers of his era but I don't know if he has the numbers.

OL- Mike Kenn

Who? He fails the "Infrared41 lineman rule" which states "if you played the O-line and everyone knows who you are then you're probably HOF worthy.

DL-Cortez Kennedy, Russell Maryland (not on the HOF list), Dexter Manley, Clyde Simmons, Charles Mann

A case could probably be made for Kennedy.

LB- Darryl Tallet, Hardy Nickerson, Kevin Greene, Greg Lloyd (not on the HOF list)

None of the above.

DB- Kenny Easley, Carnell Lake, Lewis/Minnifield

Kenny Easley should be in. He was easily one of the top safeties of his era. Albert Lewis of the Chiefs? He was one of the best in the game for a while in KC. Frank Minnifield is one of my all-time favorite Browns but he's nowhere near a HOF DB.

? Hines Ward: Being a Steeler with two rings will help.

? Edgerrin James: Tough call. He has the numbers but was he ever that dominant? I'd say yes based on his numbers.

? Kurt Warner: The classic case of close but no cigar. Again, he's Boomer Esiason to Manning and Brady's Elway and Montana.

? Brian Urlacher: He's been a Bears LB for a long time. Isn't that all it takes?

? Charles Woodson: Too soon to say. He'll probably get in.

? Fred Taylor: He's kind of in the Edgerrin James category.

? Jeff Saturday: Passes the "infrared41 lineman test."

? Orlando Pace: See above.

Hey infrared... I know this is an extreme longshot, but I would love to see Chris Spielman get in. As a fellow Buckeye, would you throw him a bone and put him in?

As for another Lions longshot, Herman Moore has a slightly better and more deserving resume, finishing his career with 670 receptions for 9,174 yards and 62 touchdowns. He went over 100 receptions 3 times, including a then-NFL record 123 receptions in 1995. 4 consecutive Pro-Bowls and 3 consecutive First Team NFL Selections.

Ha, then why do you have a Michigan avatar? Confused!

I wouldn't say any of those 3 Bucs should get in, raysox. Sapp's overrated, Brooks only had a couple years of being an elite LB, and Lynch simply hasn't been dominant enough for too long, and is really only a big hitter. Yeah, that Bucs defense was a great TEAM to win the super bowl, but didn't have HoF-quality defenders IMO.

Umm, Spielman was a Buckeye... infrared is a Buckeye (fan).

Whoops! My bad Ghetto, just read your phrasing wrong (thought you said you were a fellow buckeye to infrared).

[rmackman]

Jason Taylor

Six-Time Pro Bowl Selection

2006 Defensive Player of the Year

NFL All-Time Career Leader in Fumble Returns for Touchdowns (6)

Stats Overview Tackles Misc Interceptions

SPLIT TOT SOLO AST SACK STF STFY FF BK INT YDS AVG LNG TD PD

Career 703 471 232 126.0 45 50 43 2 8 110 13.8 51 3 85

[STL FANATIC]

Just to throw this into the Warner discussion.

For quite some time, Warner held the highest career passer rating (with whatever number of games). He's since fallen slightly off that. Here's the current list:

1 Steve Young 96.8

2 Peyton Manning 95.2

3 Tony Romo 94.1

4 Philip Rivers 94.0

5 Kurt Warner 93.8

6 Tom Brady 93.6

7 Joe Montana 92.3

We'll see if Romo and Rivers can hang on. Their careers are very young. The rest is very, very good company. And the numbers are all very close.

It's just one part of what would have to be a complete case, but still worth mentioning.

[Saintsfan]

To defend myself, I didn't say that a compelling backstory alone is a qualifier for the HOF. Warner has 2 league MVP awards, its certainly difficult to say he wasn't a vital player in the best team in the NFL around the turn of the century.

I am not saying a ring is the arbiter of these things. Its a combination of things.

On Peterson, I can't think of an NFL player in the last decade, possibly longer, who has had a bigger impact in there rookie year, and remember AP was injured for part of that year. I think part of entry into the hall should be on that sort of achievement. To my mind he is the premier running back in the game right now.

And nine playoff appearances in 26 years is consistency?

I have to say though I do agree that in an ideal world the Hall of Fame would be a place for only the most elite of players. The fact remains though that that is not what the HoF is right now.

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't you say this about Jim Plunkett?

Plunkett is a guy I would give serious consideration to. Again compelling back story. was a leader of his franchise, in a period of success for a franchise that has not been consistently succesful since.

Outside of his "story" and his Super Bowl rings what other reason is there to consider him?

On The Raiders consistency; up until their total meltdown over the past 7 seasons, the Raiders were competitive far more often than they weren't. You see today's Raiders and think that represents the franchise. Anyone with even a rudimentary knowledge of NFL history knows that The Raiders since their last Super Bowl appearance are not at all representative of the franchise overall. But that's all beside the point...

If you really believe that Adrian Peterson should get into the HOF based on his rookie season alone then, and I mean this with all due respect, you have no earthly idea what you're talking about and I cannot take seriously anything you say about The NFL. No offense, but it's just plain stupid and it makes you look totally clueless. You need to move that over to where it belongs; in the WillMorris section of the NCAA thread.

ON PLunkett, what I said is that it is a combination of things. With Plunkett you have a backstory, a strong comeback, leading to 2 superbowls, (he is the only inactive QB with 2 Superbowl rings not to be in the hall).

Since Flores left the Raiders in 1987, only 2 of there coaches have left the Frnachise with a winning record (Shell mark 1 and Gruden), only 3 coaches have lead the team in playoff games, (Callahan added to Shell and Gruden), and only Mike White of the other coaches has more that 10 wins. Hardly an impressive record, for a previously storied franchise in the NFL. Its certainly not a record of consistent success, even before the Superbowl appearance.

On Peterson, all I am saying is that what Peterson has achieved in his career so far, and in particualr his rookie season, has been remarkable, and if his career ended now, for my money he should be in the hall. I think if you aren't going to set specific goals for entry into the hall, then partly what you are saying is that impact is one of the important things. I can't think of a non QB who has had as much impact in the league in the last few years.

[The_Admiral]

On Peterson, all I am saying is that what Peterson has achieved in his career so far, and in particualr his rookie season, has been remarkable, and if his career ended now, for my money he should be in the hall.

Then your money is Weimar deutschmarks.

[infrared41]

ON PLunkett, what I said is that it is a combination of things. With Plunkett you have a backstory, a strong comeback, leading to 2 superbowls, (he is the only inactive QB with 2 Superbowl rings not to be in the hall).

On Peterson, all I am saying is that what Peterson has achieved in his career so far, and in particualr his rookie season, has been remarkable, and if his career ended now, for my money he should be in the hall. I think if you aren't going to set specific goals for entry into the hall, then partly what you are saying is that impact is one of the important things. I can't think of a non QB who has had as much impact in the league in the last few years.

Other than winning those two games, what has Plunkett done to warrant HOF consideration? As I said before, he wasn't even the starter at the beginning of those two seasons. You're just stuck on this "he has two rings" thing. Using that logic, Jeff Hostetler should be in the HOF because he stepped in after Simms was hurt led the Giants to the Super Bowl. And for the record, Craig Morton has two rings and he's not in the HOF. Hostetler has two rings. Lots of QBs have multiple rings and aren't in the HOF. And a compelling backstory helps in Hollywood not Canton.

The only thing sillier than the case you're making for Jim Plunkett to be inducted into the Hall of Fame is the case you're making for Adrian Peterson. All I have to say about your insane Peterson argument is this; based on your own logic, are you ready to induct John Brockington into the HOF? His first three seasons were really good.

And for the record, as remarkable as Peterson is, he isn't even leading the league in rushing right now. Chris Johnson is. So should Canton clear a spot for Johnson too?

[rams80]

Kurt Warner is Warren Moon with a championship. And a fraction of the statistical numbers Of course he's borderline.

Although....Moon does have a Grey Cup championship or five, right?

[rams80]

Well I personally think Orlando Pace, and Charles Woodson are both locks for the HOF.

Woodson is still one of the most dominant corners in the league, maybe even moreso than early in his career.

He has more interceptions his 4 years in Green Bay [combined], than all his years in Oakland combined [8 years].

And it's hard to judge offensive linemen at times. Stats don't show you much. But from what I've seen, Pace has always been a beast when it comes to driving into defenders.

Assuming he's not hurt. Which has been the seeming case for the latter half of the decade.

He might get in, but I'm less sure now than I was in the early part of the decade.

[tBBP]

I guess since some discussion of offensive linemen has turned up in this Kurt-Warner-dominated thread, I'd like to submit a name for consideration:

Paul Gruber.

I know, I know...who?? (By that virtue alone, he fails the infrared41 lineman test, but I'm going to continue anyways. )

The reason no one outside Tampa and/or Wisconsin knows who this guy is is because he spent his entire 12-year career toiling in creamsicle orange and white-well, except for the last three, after the rebrand. But the guy was one of the steadiest linemen the Buccaneers have ever had...and actually, probably one of the steadiest limemen the NFL has ever had. Played in 183 career games over those twelve seasons. The first five years, the guy missed not a single snap. Those 183 games? Started every single one of them, which was a team record until LB Derrick Brooks broke it (another potential borderline HOF'er--actually, to me, he IS HOF-worthy, but I'm not about to get my bloodlines involved in this discussion).

Sure, Gruber played the majority of his career with a team both notorious and mocked for its futility, but if longevity, reliability, consistency, and durability mean anything on the list of criteria for potential HOF'ers, I believe the guy should get a look. (Tis also why I agree with the Vet's nomination of Jon Runyan.)

Oh...and since someone brought up three other Buc players, well...I kinda already let my feelings about my cuz be known up above; Warren Sapp most likely won't get a nod--but I think that has more to do with his at-times off-color persona than it does his on-field performance; and John Lynch, possibly my favorite Buc DB ever...I don't see him getting any consideration. Sure he was an impact player (emphasis on impact), but I don't really think he would be considered an "elite" safety in his day.

[infrared41]

I guess since some discussion of offensive linemen has turned up in this Kurt-Warner-dominated thread, I'd like to submit a name for consideration: Paul Gruber.

I know, I know...who?? (By that virtue alone, he fails the infrared41 lineman test, but I'm going to continue anyways. )

Actually he doesn't. I know who he is.

[tBBP]

Cool. But how many other people know, though?

[infrared41]

Cool. But how many other people know, though?

Hopefully enough to make a case for him because I agree with you. Paul Gruber should get HOF consideration.