Voting

[NJTank]

It has nothing to dop with the investiations it has to do with Kerry sewing up the nomination thats why they came out now.

I want to knwo voting records and if Kerry voted to raise tax all those tiomes, voted to cut defense, voted for gas tax, and voted agaisnt troops getting vest then it has to be discussed.

Someones voting is the most important factor in determining how I vote.

Also heres something I wonder how come its called an attack when Bush calls Kerry a liberal. He has the most liberal voting record in the senate. I mean if he is a liberal why dont he just admit it?

You can call Howard Dean a lunatic but at least he admitted he was a liberal, tell the voters the truth. Don't hide beyond the moderate tag if you are not.

Joe Lieberman is a moderate Democrat not Kerry.

Unless of course Kerry is ashamed of being a liberal, oh well maybe he was a conservative before he voted liberal.

[dwertman]

Bush will not get my vote,and I am not a democrat.I voted for Bob Dole if that tells ya anything.There are far to many issues domestically and abroad,that I cannot support him in Nov.

I could start with the completely botched operation in Iraq and go on for hours from there.But I will not bore you with my political misgivings

[winters in buffalo]

How was Iraq botched?

[paynomind]

How? Seriously?

1. We had no real reason to attack.

2. We "completed the mission" but have still lost thousands of troops since that time

3. We still haven't stopped the attacks on our troops

4. We have no clear plan as to what we will be doing with the country.

5. My best friend's brother came back from over there without a leg. For what? SO we could... get some guy who was admittedly an evil leader, but who had very little to nothing to do witht he terrorist attacks, while Osama runs free, most certainly planning the next attack?

Say what you will, but Iraq was at the wrong time, for no real reason except that we knew Sadam was evil before. And the job isnt even finished! You have to not get soliders killed for the war to be over!

Bush has failed to admit the economy and jobs and moral are in the toilet, and for that, I will not vote for him.

[NJTank]

If Kerry wins the days of teh US being the Worlds Super Power will be over, as we slowly become France.

[Lee.]

If Kerry wins the days of teh US being the Worlds Super Power will be over, as we slowly become France.

OK, I'm gonna need you to back this statement up. How will the US become France? By acting responsibly in the world arena? By waiting for facts before going overseas to blow plop up?

As a neighbor to the north, I need to know exactly how Bush plans on ending the world, so I can book some sick days.

To paraphrase Doug Stanhope, America may be the best country in the world, but that's like being the prettiest Denny's waitress...being the best doesn't necessarily mean you're any good.

[Shmee]

If Kerry wins the days of teh US being the Worlds Super Power will be over, as we slowly become France.

I don't want to be the World's Super Power. New Zealand is one of the most well known nations in the world because of it's beauty and peacfulness, not because of its warmongering imperialism. The Kiwis don't even have a standing army, but you don't hear anyone bitching down there about not being a World Super Power. They don't piss anyone off with their foreign policy, so nobody feels the need to bomb them. It's a much more stable lifestyle than being a world super power.

[winters in buffalo]

Sorry, but I feel like dropping the gloves on this one. Don't take it personally:

1. We had no real reason to attack. We've had an excellent 'reason' to attack for nearly 15 years - to remove a dangerous dictator from power - something we should have done in 1991, and could have done at will anytime since then. Admittedly, the connection between Iraq and 9/11 was minimal at best, but it did create an opportunity to swing popular opinion toward pursuing an attack.

2. We "completed the mission" but have still lost thousands of troops since that time. We've been spoiled - you and I haven't seen a real war in our lifetimes. This, and every other military operation in our time has been the drive-thru version. Fast, and at a low cost. If we could win every war in under a year, with - at last count - only 657 dead, I'd say we should attack somewhere new every other year and install pro-US governments. If people are shocked by a few hundred dead and thousands wounded or injured in the span of a year, imagine the horror of the next WWII- or Vietnam-scale war, where those are the daily counts.

3. We still haven't stopped the attacks on our troops. We might not, either. Our troops get attacked in places where we're not at war - is that a reason to not have a worldwide presence? The truth is, our troops are at risk everywhere, but protecting our interests far outweighs those risks.

4. We have no clear plan as to what we will be doing with the country. I don't think the plans are clear, and if they are, they've haven't been made public - but there is definitely huge advantage of a US-influenced Iraqi democracy.

A. Iraq is fairly liberal and westernized compared to other Arab states - it's the ideal place to install a friendly regime.

B. Iraq is oil-rich. That wealth will strengthen its new democratically-elected government. In the hands of a dictator, the people suffer and the government becomes a threat to other nations. We get divided into two camps - those who accuse the US of going after the oil, and those who deny that this is about oil. We should just admit it - oil is the world's most traded commodity and the health of the US and world economies depend on it. As long as it continues to control us, we need to control those who have it.

C. Iraq is geographically central to the Middle East, US control prevents the creation of a pan-Arab state. Although currently an unlikely scenario, it's a dangerous long-term possibility. A single Islamic government unifying the Middle East would create a country with over a billion people, one of the world's largest military forces, and would control the bulk of the world's oil - and with it, the world economy. This government would likely be hostile to the US - and the military and economic threat to the US would be tremendous.

5. My best friend's brother came back from over there without a leg. For what? SO we could... get some guy who was admittedly an evil leader, but who had very little to nothing to do witht he terrorist attacks, while Osama runs free, most certainly planning the next attack? I'm sorry to hear about your friend's brother - I had a coworker who lost a son - but that's one of the risks, and he knew that when he signed up. From the day you put on a uniform, you have to be prepared to die.

Osama is not exactly 'running free", and he's certainly not free because we went to Iraq. Remember - we attacked Afghanistan, destroyed the Taliban and scattered Al Qaeda before the first unit even set foot in Iraq. A lot of bin Laden's network has been destroyed or disrupted, and he's been on the run for more than 2 years. Furthermore, we have the resources to be in Iraq and Afghanistan at the same time. The US military is big enough to fight two full-scale wars simultaneously... these two operations combined haven't even come close to stretching it too thin.

Capturing bin Laden might stop the next attack, but not the one after that - there are others in Al Qaeda ready to assume control, and there are other groups out there with the same goals. Like it or not, this is going to be a constant effort for the next 10-20 years, and whoever you vote for will be forced to deal with it one way or another. Terrorism against the US didn't start during the Bush years, and it won't magically end when he leaves office.

Say what you will, but Iraq was at the wrong time, for no real reason except that we knew Sadam was evil before. And the job isnt even finished! You have to not get soliders killed for the war to be over! I think I've sufficiently covered this.

Bush has failed to admit the economy and jobs and moral are in the toilet, and for that, I will not vote for him. I wasn't discussing the economy, but - the government, and especially not the president, does not run the economy - business does. Any attempts by the government to 'steer' the economy, through taxes, regulations, etc - take years to take effect. The most recent economic downturn began before Bush was elected, and it's been slowly improving. Granted, it's no boom, but we're not slipping into a depression either. The government hasn't been laying people off, and it can't 'create' jobs without raising taxes to pay for them. I personally don't want higher taxes - certainly not to pay for a bigger beauracracy. You think Kerry will create jobs? The only people he'll be hiring are the ones to replace Bush administration officials who lose their jobs in the transition.

[shiznit1083]

Gentleman, this needs to be brought up. Can't anyone see that there is no middle ground??? How about the third party???

Guys, don't you see a problem here? Kerry and Bush are too persuaded by their parties (as are most democratic and republican candidates) . They change their views to fit their party. We have a far right wing and a far left wing, without any middle. Forget Nader (he's a jackass with no experience) and freaking Ross Perot (who single-handedly ruined any indipendants chance of running for years to come). The Independants need a legitimate candidate running for president. Why can't we have a candidate who shares both democratic and republican views, sharing the strong suits of both?

It can be done. We need to find a good third party candidate who can get support. We need publicity, too. It's becomming a money election.

Now, I don't know a whole lot of what Jesse Ventura did for the state of Minnesota, but I listened to him on WEEI 850 (here in Boston), and he opened my eyes to many things. He made great points and made me realize, the election and the candidates do not have to be different :censored:s with the same view every election.

There is a middle ground that can make everyone happy. We just need to find it and find a way to put the jackass and elephant aside.

[Ez Street]

Gentleman, this needs to be brought up. Can't anyone see that there is no middle ground??? How about the third party???

Guys, don't you see a problem here? Kerry and Bush are too persuaded by their parties (as are most democratic and republican candidates) . They change their views to fit their party. We have a far right wing and a far left wing, without any middle. Forget Nader (he's a jackass with no experience) and freaking Ross Perot (who single-handedly ruined any indipendants chance of running for years to come). The Independants need a legitimate candidate running for president. Why can't we have a candidate who shares both democratic and republican views, sharing the strong suits of both?

It can be done. We need to find a good third party candidate who can get support. We need publicity, too. It's becomming a money election.

Now, I don't know a whole lot of what Jesse Ventura did for the state of Minnesota, but I listened to him on WEEI 850 (here in Boston), and he opened my eyes to many things. He made great points and made me realize, the election and the candidates do not have to be different :censored:s with the same view every election.

There is a middle ground that can make everyone happy. We just need to find it and find a way to put the jackass and elephant aside.

You said it. I don't swing one way of the other.

[NJTank]

If Kerry wins the days of teh US being the Worlds Super Power will be over, as we slowly become France.

I don't want to be the World's Super Power. New Zealand is one of the most well known nations in the world because of it's beauty and peacfulness, not because of its warmongering imperialism. The Kiwis don't even have a standing army, but you don't hear anyone bitching down there about not being a World Super Power. They don't piss anyone off with their foreign policy, so nobody feels the need to bomb them. It's a much more stable lifestyle than being a world super power.

Shmeke Im glad you are 15, because you really dont know the way of the world yet.

The United States protects half of the world it is the first called on in any disaster. We even sent aide workers to Iran whne they had their earthquake. We do more then African Nations to stop the disease that could wipe out that contentent, and yet with all we give its too much.

We are going to leave Iraq one day and that day it will be a better day for the country they have a constitution now.

Things are bad now but its war, and we need patince and vigalence if we run now, the trerrorist win, just like they won in Spain by getting the Socialist elected.

Osama is on teh run and scared stick his head 6 inches outside a cave, killing him will be good, but wont stop Al-Queda we have to understand they dont like our way of life and thats the issue. Its not AMerican imperalism that caused 9/11 it was Islamic Exstremsim.

Bush could have not stopped, Clinton could have not stopped it was bound to happen one day, and t did.

It was a wake up call for some who now know we are at war, yet others hit the snooze bar, and thats the issue in this electiom

If Bush wins we will have an agressive stance against world terrosim there will be set backs, but we will do our best to stop it.

If Kerry wins terrosim would be regarded as a criminal act and not an act of war. That was the mistake of pre 9/11 thinking. Perhaps if we were more agressive after the Cole after the Kobar Towers, or after the first WTC attack perhaps 9/11 could have been prevented.

The UN will not protect us it just a debating society that is just a bunch of hot air, if we waited for them to respond nothing would ever get done.

But since 9/11 the Taliban has been chased out of Afghanistan and that country is in the best shape it has been in aong time. Is it perfect No but these things take time.

Iraq's dicator is in custatody and they have a constitution, are things perfect of course not, but its better then it used to be.

And its all thanks to the US being a super power.

If we were not a super power the world would be a much darker place as Communsit wouldd likely be running unchcked throughout Europe as the Soviet Union would have continued to advance instead they are left to history books with other dreadful forms of governemnt like Nazi Germany, which we also helped eliminate.

[paynomind]

winters, I appreciate reading your viewpoints in relation to mine. None of your responses seemed to directly contradict what I said, only spinning it. Fair enough to say that we see a different side of what happened. Interesting beer conversation.

OSilverbacks - think it is funny to see your signature line after your post. It states very clearly that you wont be participating in political conversations. So, thereby.. you are in violation of your own user agreement with... yourself.

Tank - coming in and cleaning up bad situations is our duty as the greatest free world country in the world. Walking into places we weren't invited in needs to be done as infrequently as possible. 'Bad leaders' aren't a good enough reason. If i were, England should be attacking us right now to dipose our 'leader' (sic).

[JQK]

Walking into places we weren't invited in needs to be done as infrequently as possible. 'Bad leaders' aren't a good enough reason. If i were, England should be attacking us right now to dipose our 'leader' (sic). 

Well yea, because Bush is stringing up people on sidewalk lamposts and flinging people off of rooftops and raping 13 year old girls because he's bored. This Bush, this despot, must be deposed, captured and killed for those awful crimes...

Oh wait.... Saddam and the Ba'ath party were the ones who did that.

Saddam was a risk for EVERYONE... better have him not in power, than in power. We did the world a favor, and as usual we're getting on by the Europussies, Canada, and the good ol' radical left wing here at home...

Bush has led this country through an awful economic and international mess that was left for him by the previous administration. And yet, here we are, 4 years, an act of war commited on our soil killing 3,000 civilians, and a war in two countries halfway around the world later... and we are safe, the economy is in a roaring recovery, the jobless rate has dropped to 1999 levels, and America is just rolling along. Listen to the left, though, and America is crumbling, we are in the worst economic times since the Great Depression, we are living in fear of airplanes and frogs and plagues, it's DOOM & GLOOM!!! The End-Times are HERE!!!!

...gimme a break. Some people may trust their TV enough to believe everything it says, but i'd rather look at the facts...

[Shmee]

Shmeke Im glad you are 15, because you really dont know the way of the world yet.

Do me a small favor...please. I hang out on message boards like this because most kids my age aren't quite at the level where they like to talk politics, or philosophy, or business, or graphic design, or any of the garbage that you and I and everyone likes to talk about on this board. I joined up and started to take part in conversation because I felt like this was a place where I would be accepted without being criticized. Like Nitroseed was afraid to tell everyone that she's a woman, maybe I would've been better off not letting you know how old I am because now I'm getting talked down to.

You can attack my beliefs all you want, and I'll gladly accept it because I love to debate an issue. But then you go ahead and talk down to me while spelling my user name incorrectly, as well as using poor grammar and spelling no less than 20 words incorrectly. My age may prevent me from having traveled extensively or having shared the same experiences as you, but it surely doesn't mean that I can't voice my opinion like you without being personally attacked.

If anyone else would rather not hear the voice of an American youth that will have to sign his draft card and be affected by these same issues in less than three years, please let me know and I'll stay out of topics like this. I'll stick to uniform design or ESPN talk or get lost entirely.

[JQK]

I don't mind you talking politics...

...but if you start talking about the Rangers, i'll have to fuxk your up.....

[Lee.]

OSilverbacks - think it is funny to see your signature line after your post. It states very clearly that you wont be participating in political conversations. So, thereby.. you are in violation of your own user agreement with... yourself.

My sig line is an expession of my individuality. It is meant for comedic or satirical process only. It is by no means a "mission statement," nor a "user agreement." It is human nature to be hypocritical, so cope. Besides, if you take my sig line seriously, then you're admitting to be wrong in your viewpoints right off the bat.

As a foreigner (to non-Canadians, anyway), it's much easier to stand back and look at things from a neutral, non-biased POV (I didn't say simple, or that it IS easy, just easiER, there's a difference). Not as likely to get into a heated debate over semantics, as it were.

Regarding Iraq, Hussein was/is an easy scapegoat. He was the one leader in the Middle East who the general public regarded as a villain, most citizens (world, not being specific to the US) probably wouldn't recognize any other middle eastern leaders if they were tearing up lotto tickets at the seven-eleven. For W to go into Iraq, at a cost of billions per day, and finally come out 8 months later saying "we got him, we got him" is exactly what Joe Six Pack wants to hear. We got the guy we've been hearing about for years.

The Taliban is like a hydra. Kill the head and three more will take its place. We can go after Bin Laden all we want, but the fact is if anyone does take him down, he's got lieutenants ready to take over RFN. That's not Bush's fault, that's nobody's fault. That's just something we're all going to have to live with. There's a reason they're called TERRORISTS. They've infiltrated, they work from within. The first rule of Project Mayhem is you do not talk about Project Mayhem. North AMerica is lucky, in that it took this long for something big to happen. After all the human bombs in Palestine and Israwl, the car and store bombings in Northern Ireland, the act of terrorists didn't fully sink in until it happened on American soil.

I'm not saying Bush should have done nothing. But what he did was come out swinging and go after the first target he thought he had a chance at taking down, like an embarrassed schoolyard bully. Never mind that North Korea has every nuke in town pointed directly at the US. Never mind that most of the governments the US helped install in Central america would jump at the chance to be the David that brings down the Goliath.

I'm not downplaying the tragedies of what happened. But calm heads must prevail. The problem with being a super power is that there's always a Luthor gunning for you, so they can be the next super power. And right now, folks, North Korea is the USA's Lex Luthor.

And Kinger, the Rangers suck.

[Brass]

IMO, Bush has done a fine job. Better than Clinton. At a point in the 90's, Clinton could of captured Saddam AND Osama, because they were still at large, but he didn't. We do have Saddam, and Osama can run, but he can't hide forever.

As for the economy. It's a circle. It's not a president's fault if it is bad. If Kerry gets elected say for the next 2 years, it'll be ok. But the president after him, whoever it may be (PLEASE NOT LIEBERMEN!) will have a tough time with the economy.

Believe me, it's the only thing my Republican granddad and Democratic dad agree on. And it comes for interesting conversations at Sunday dinner for Easter

[Shmee]

OSilverbacks, I agree with everything you said except for that last bit about the Rangers. Actually, I agree with that too, but I still don't like to admit it.

Brassbonanza97 gets bonus points for having the Irish flag in his signature. I have a big one of those with my clan's coat of arms on it hanging on my bedroom wall.

[JQK]

As a foreigner (to non-Canadians, anyway), it's much easier to stand back and look at things from a neutral, non-biased POV

You're Canadian.. that's not non-biased. Deep down in your heat beats a heart of an AmericaHating Canadian. It's not your fault, you're just Canadian.

Regarding Iraq, Hussein was/is an easy scapegoat. He was the one leader in the Middle East who the general public regarded as a villain, most citizens (world, not being specific to the US) probably wouldn't recognize any other middle eastern leaders if they were tearing up lotto tickets at the seven-eleven. For W to go into Iraq, at a cost of billions per day, and finally come out 8 months later saying "we got him, we got him" is exactly what Joe Six Pack wants to hear. We got the guy we've been hearing about for years.

I won't deny that. Sure politics played some part in that. But is the world better off without the Saddam lurking in the shadows? It's a win/win for Bush. Looks good politically, and a world despot is off his golden throne.

The Taliban is like a hydra. Kill the head and three more will take its place. We can go after Bin Laden all we want, but the fact is if anyone does take him down, he's got lieutenants ready to take over RFN. That's not Bush's fault, that's nobody's fault. That's just something we're all going to have to live with.

Sooo... let them kill 3,000 american civilians, countless Israelies, A couple thousand Spaniards, Afghanis, Uzbeks, ect, ect, ect... just because it's a way of life? No. Cockroaches have been around for a long time, and they will be here long after we are gone. Does that stop us from trying to kill and control them everyday? Wether we exterminate these terrorist vermin or not is not central to this isse. The issue is control. Can we control these guys, stay a step ahead, and keep killing their leaders long enough to keep them in check, to keep them under control. We've done pretty well so far, with the only problem being the Spain blast. But what happened a week later? They caught a bomb package on another spanish rail line and caught the guys who did it. One step ahead. They got a punch in, but we are back on top of these guys. It's going to be like this for y-e-a-r-s... but i'd rather us try and control these guys rather than just saying "let it ride"...

Never mind that North Korea has every nuke in town pointed directly at the US.

None work. Their last test of an ICBM went straight up, then crashed back to earth. They may have the bomb, but they don't have a delievery system yet. Those big rockets, much like the Soviet parade missles, are props... nothing more...

Never mind that most of the governments the US helped install in Central america would jump at the chance to be the David that brings down the Goliath.

Every country in the world would love to take us down. Canada, Britan, France, Russia.. they'd love to conquer the mighty U.S.

Will any of them actually do it? No.

Why? Because there is a healthy mix of respect and fear. And you need both when you're the top dog. Sorry to put it in such blunt terms, but that's the Jersey boy in me.

The problem with being a super power is that there's always a Luthor gunning for you, so they can be the next super power. And right now, folks, North Korea is the USA's Lex Luthor.

North Korea isn't even Lois Lane, but if you wanna go in there and blow them boys up, i'm right behind ya...

And Kinger, the Rangers suck.

No debate there...

[DEAD!]