Andre Dawson Elected to HOF; Alomar Falls Short...

[Epiphanic]

As for falling short, how a guy who has 60 career shutouts (9th all time), which is more than Glavine and Mussina have complete games, more than 3700 strikeouts, and an ERA around 3.3 DOESN'T make it in is beyond me. Bert "Be Home" Blyleven should be in the HOF.

It's (at least partially) because he played on some crappy teams. His career record is 287-250. He's short of that magical 300 wins and is slightly above .500. Enough writers see that and assume he's not quite good enough.

Apparently, having blog space and uninformed, contrarian opinions is qualification for being a Hall of Fame balloter now. In which case, I look forward to next year's 126,000,000 ballots.

On the plus side, Blyleven should get in with 125,000,000 of those ballots.

[Jimmy!]

As for falling short, how a guy who has 60 career shutouts (9th all time), which is more than Glavine and Mussina have complete games, more than 3700 strikeouts, and an ERA around 3.3 DOESN'T make it in is beyond me. Bert "Be Home" Blyleven should be in the HOF.

It's (at least partially) because he played on some crappy teams. His career record is 287-250. He's short of that magical 300 wins and is slightly above .500. Enough writers see that and assume he's not quite good enough.

Yeah, I get that. Guess I see the strikeouts, the shutouts, and the ERA DESPITE being on loser teams and think the guy deserves to get in.

[infrared41]

As for falling short, how a guy who has 60 career shutouts (9th all time), which is more than Glavine and Mussina have complete games, more than 3700 strikeouts, and an ERA around 3.3 DOESN'T make it in is beyond me. Bert "Be Home" Blyleven should be in the HOF.

It's (at least partially) because he played on some crappy teams. His career record is 287-250. He's short of that magical 300 wins and is slightly above .500. Enough writers see that and assume he's not quite good enough.

Yeah, I get that. Guess I see the strikeouts, the shutouts, and the ERA DESPITE being on loser teams and think the guy deserves to get in.

Blyleven is a really tough call. I never saw him as a dominant pitcher. He was a durable pitcher with a long career. He put up some good numbers. He was also basically a .500 pitcher. But he pitched on some bad teams. Then again, bad teams didn't hurt Steve Carlton. Carlton went 27-10 on a team that won 59 games all season. Blyleven gave up a ton of home runs. But he also won 287 games. But he lost 250. And so forth...

If I had a vote it would be a tough decision but I think I'd have to lean towards no. Then I'd lean towards yes. Then it would be back to no. Then back to yes and so on. And that's why I think he falls short. If we have to "make a case" for a guy then he's probably not good enough. I wouldn't see it as a mistake if he makes it but I also wouldn't see it as a mistake if he doesn't.

Blyleven may be the perfect example of a borderline candidate.

[koizim]

Put him in, but mention on his plaque that he was suspended for life, and explain what for. That's a better lesson for the kids than just hiding him and pretending that he never existed.

See, I think that by doing that, the message would be that if you break the rules but you're an all-time great, eventually they'll change the rules for you and you'll get off with a slap on the wrist. No one's pretending he never existed; there's no asterisk next to his stats, he's still the official hit leader, and people still say he's one of the greatest ballplayers ever. Rose's absence (and Shoeless Joe Jackson's, as well) from the Hall of Fame serves as a lesson for future generations of ballplayers that their actions have consequences. The same could be said for Alomar and the whole spitting incident, although that's more of a stretch.

[BBTV]

Put him in, but mention on his plaque that he was suspended for life, and explain what for. That's a better lesson for the kids than just hiding him and pretending that he never existed.

See, I think that by doing that, the message would be that if you break the rules but you're an all-time great, eventually they'll change the rules for you and you'll get off with a slap on the wrist. No one's pretending he never existed; there's no asterisk next to his stats, he's still the official hit leader, and people still say he's one of the greatest ballplayers ever. Rose's absence (and Shoeless Joe Jackson's, as well) from the Hall of Fame serves as a lesson for future generations of ballplayers that their actions have consequences. The same could be said for Alomar and the whole spitting incident, although that's more of a stretch.

How is having a plaque in a museum considered getting off? It's not like you get millions of dollars, or some other kind of reward for being enshrined. His punishment is that he's banned from the game, because he's proven to be a seedy character who could be a threat to the integrity of the sport if he's around it in any way. It shouldn't mean that he should be banned from the museum. He's no threat to the game there.

EDIT: they could always just make a plaque and put it in there without "honoring" him with the pomp and circumstance of the induction ceremony.

[koizim]

Put him in, but mention on his plaque that he was suspended for life, and explain what for. That's a better lesson for the kids than just hiding him and pretending that he never existed.

See, I think that by doing that, the message would be that if you break the rules but you're an all-time great, eventually they'll change the rules for you and you'll get off with a slap on the wrist. No one's pretending he never existed; there's no asterisk next to his stats, he's still the official hit leader, and people still say he's one of the greatest ballplayers ever. Rose's absence (and Shoeless Joe Jackson's, as well) from the Hall of Fame serves as a lesson for future generations of ballplayers that their actions have consequences. The same could be said for Alomar and the whole spitting incident, although that's more of a stretch.

How is having a plaque in a museum considered getting off? It's not like you get millions of dollars, or some other kind of reward for being enshrined. His punishment is that he's banned from the game, because he's proven to be a seedy character who could be a threat to the integrity of the sport if he's around it in any way. It shouldn't mean that he should be banned from the museum. He's no threat to the game there.

EDIT: they could always just make a plaque and put it in there without "honoring" him with the pomp and circumstance of the induction ceremony.

The lack of a plaque in the Hall of Fame is, at this point, the only punishment for him short of striking his numbers from the record books. When he was thrown out of the game, his playing career was over and he was a slightly below-average manager who most likely would have lasted another three or four seasons and then announced games until he got fired for swearing while the game was being broadcast. If you give him a spot in Cooperstown, then there is no more punishment. The man's already finished his playing career as one of the greatest ever, he has money, he has fame.

The only thing that separates him the men in the Hall is the plaque. You give him that and all he's had to deal with as his punishment is a 25 year waiting period where he made more money off of not being in Cooperstown than he would have had he been inducted in the first place.

[BBTV]

The only ones being punished are the young fans of the game who go to Cooperstown to see the history of the game, but are not being told the whole story.

It'd be like if we found out that John Adams had been betting on the revolutionary war (whether or not he was betting on the British.) If they had found out, would he have been erased from the history books, and his face painted over in all of those famous paintings of the signing of the declaration of independance?

I know, bad example, since there's no HOF for historical figures, and technically Rose's numbers are still in the books, I just thought it was funny.

[koizim]

I see what you're saying, but I feel that his numbers are there so it isn't like he's being stricken from history. It's just that, IMO, he doesn't deserve to be honored by being enshrined in Cooperstown.

[BBTV]

Is it still "honoring" him if you don't have any kind of ceremony for him? I don't understand why some maintenance guy can't just hang up the plaque in the middle of the night somewhere and have that be the end of it.

[koizim]

Because even if the Hall doesn't have the fanfare themselves, ESPN and every other sports media outlet will. It will be viewed as some great reconciliation between Rose and the MLB.