Kurt Warner Retires...

[Sguse1]

Donovan McNabb---> Cardinals

Donovan McNabb---> Vikings

Let the sweepstakes begin...

[rams80]

That's an awfully hard point to make. After Warner left, Bulger had a couple of very good seasons surrounded by decent, mediocre, and bad seasons. Kurt Warner took a few years to heal before becoming a dominant star again. The Rams won virtually nothing after making the move.

You can certainly argue it was the right call at the time. And you can argue that making the other call wouldn't have resulted in any better results. But given the results we've seen, it's hard to really say they made the right call. At best, there was no right call.

Because I said the entire time that choosing Marc Bulger over Kurt Warner was a mistake of epic proportions, I'll take the other side and say they absolutely made the wrong call at the time, and I think things would have played out substantially different if they'd have kept Kurt.

What I have going for me is the unknown. We know already know Marc Bulger didn't work out. (And by admitting I have the unknown going for me, I'm attempting to imply neither of us is really right or wrong. It's a situation where hindsight doesn't even really help.)

Warner has had the best receiving corps to work with the last 2-3 years. The Rams corps...is...well if not the worst bottom five. Combine that with a line that the Rams have finally started to work on this past offseason, and no....there's no way in hell keeping Warner would have brought more wins to the franchise the last 3 years, and I guarantee that a shell-shocked Warner would not have won more than Bulger did in 2004-2006.

The Rams actually had a couple of decent teams between 2004-2006. Maybe a little more work on the defense through this period, maybe retaining Pickett and one or two other guys, and maybe hiring a better coach than Linehan in 2006 (or firing Shawmunt), and that crew makes some serious noise in the playoffs. Instead management let its Miss Havisham-like obsession for the GSOT dominate its decision making until they fell into the goddamn fireplace in 2008, leaving us with a condemned building and a lot of rotten wedding cake.

----------------------------------------------------

I personally think Warner's a borderline Hall of Fame Case. He was very good for a few seasons, but the lack of consistency throughout his career works against him.

[BBTV]

Donovan McNabb---> Cardinals

Donovan McNabb---> Vikings

Let the sweepstakes begin...

Please.

Not that anything matters for the next couple of months, but the latest "inside" word is that the Eagles may try to convince him to stay without an extension. Good luck with that.

[NJTank]

If they trade McNabb, the Eagles will regret it for eons.

[AHcreative]

I was one of the lucky ones that got to witness him and all of his success with the Rams. 10 years ago today I was in Atlanta, Georgia, preparing for Super Bowl XXXIV. That trip was the best weekend of my life.

Kurt Warner, you will be missed.

[STL FANATIC]

That's an awfully hard point to make. After Warner left, Bulger had a couple of very good seasons surrounded by decent, mediocre, and bad seasons. Kurt Warner took a few years to heal before becoming a dominant star again. The Rams won virtually nothing after making the move.

You can certainly argue it was the right call at the time. And you can argue that making the other call wouldn't have resulted in any better results. But given the results we've seen, it's hard to really say they made the right call. At best, there was no right call.

Because I said the entire time that choosing Marc Bulger over Kurt Warner was a mistake of epic proportions, I'll take the other side and say they absolutely made the wrong call at the time, and I think things would have played out substantially different if they'd have kept Kurt.

What I have going for me is the unknown. We know already know Marc Bulger didn't work out. (And by admitting I have the unknown going for me, I'm attempting to imply neither of us is really right or wrong. It's a situation where hindsight doesn't even really help.)

Warner has had the best receiving corps to work with the last 2-3 years. The Rams corps...is...well if not the worst bottom five. Combine that with a line that the Rams have finally started to work on this past offseason, and no....there's no way in hell keeping Warner would have brought more wins to the franchise the last 3 years, and I guarantee that a shell-shocked Warner would not have won more than Bulger did in 2004-2006.

The Rams actually had a couple of decent teams between 2004-2006. Maybe a little more work on the defense through this period, maybe retaining Pickett and one or two other guys, and maybe hiring a better coach than Linehan in 2006 (or firing Shawmunt), and that crew makes some serious noise in the playoffs. Instead management let its Miss Havisham-like obsession for the GSOT dominate its decision making until they fell into the goddamn fireplace in 2008, leaving us with a condemned building and a lot of rotten wedding cake.

----------------------------------------------------

I personally think Warner's a borderline Hall of Fame Case. He was very good for a few seasons, but the lack of consistency throughout his career works against him.

All other moves being the same, and I think you're right. But I think letting Warner go was the beginning of the downfall. Mike Martz would have saved his job preemptively had he made the right choice at QB. Certainly Bulger did fine, at least, initially, but I still think ultimately that was the beginning of the end. But of course that's primarily speculation on my part, can't prove a thing.

Although, I'm pretty damn sure we win the playoff game against Carolina in 2004 if Kurt Warner was backing that team. Mike Martz had not confidence in Marc Bulger at that time, but stubbornly stood by him over Warner. The Rams were deeeeep in Carolina territory and had an opportunity to score a TD late, late in the game and almost surely take then win, but Martz wouldn't put the game at risk by letting Bulger throw and played for the FG instead of taking a chance (I'm not talking about going on 4th, just trying to score prior to it). This was Mike flippin Martz being unwilling to pass the ball. If Kurt Warner were in, not only would there have been no question that they were going to make an effort for the TD, but Warner would have simply called the play and done it. As was, they kicked the FG, tied it, and lost in OT, burned by Steve Smith. All because Martz didn't really trust his boy Bulger.

Okay. Sorry about that. I happened to be at at that game (one of the few Rams games I've ever been able to attend), so it really burns me. To go even further off track, I went to high school with the daughter of then Rams Special Teams coach Bobby April. She got us us the tickets. Special teams had a fantastic game. Kicker Jeff Wilkins almost single-handedly won the game, only a missed long FG in OT kept it from being one of the greatest kicking performances ever, I think. He even recovered his own onside kick that led to the situation I mentioned above. This all despite the fact that Mike Martz refused to put anybody but rookies and 3rd stringers on special teams, ever. So after the near loss due to a lack of confidence in the QB and a bad defense, guess who took the blame? Bobby April, now regarded as one of the best ST coaches in the business (you'll like him, Philly). Final off-topic note. His daughter was...awesome. Then they moved to Buffalo. I've never forgiven Mike Martz for that...

Ok, Kurt Warner again. I can see where some think he's only borderline HOF, but he was SOOOO good when he was good, and still for a substantial amount of time even if it wasn't totally consistent, that I think he's got it. Despite those years in the middle, he has the third highest QB ranking EVER. He holds all kinds of playoff and Super Bowl records. And he led (with help from lots of other talent of course--all the good teams have that, though) the turnaround of two deadbeat franchise. I just can't see how he doesn't get it.

But even beyond anybody's opinion about whether he "should", I think for the most part we can all agree that based on who's in and been getting in lately, Warner is just about a lock to make it (whether first ballot or not).

[rams80]

All other moves being the same, and I think you're right. But I think letting Warner go was the beginning of the downfall. Mike Martz would have saved his job preemptively had he made the right choice at QB. Certainly Bulger did fine, at least, initially, but I still think ultimately that was the beginning of the end. But of course that's primarily speculation on my part, can't prove a thing.

Martz's termination was as much a function of him losing the internal power struggle with Shawmunt as it was a function of the Rams' on field performance. Seeing as how John Shaw held Frontiere's ear, I fail to see how a different outcome would have resulted from that power struggle.

Although, I'm pretty damn sure we win the playoff game against Carolina in 2004 if Kurt Warner was backing that team. Mike Martz had not confidence in Marc Bulger at that time, but stubbornly stood by him over Warner. The Rams were deeeeep in Carolina territory and had an opportunity to score a TD late, late in the game and almost surely take then win, but Martz wouldn't put the game at risk by letting Bulger throw and played for the FG instead of taking a chance (I'm not talking about going on 4th, just trying to score prior to it). This was Mike flippin Martz being unwilling to pass the ball. If Kurt Warner were in, not only would there have been no question that they were going to make an effort for the TD, but Warner would have simply called the play and done it. As was, they kicked the FG, tied it, and lost in OT, burned by Steve Smith. All because Martz didn't really trust his boy Bulger.

Let's see....Bulger or the guy whose 2 performances in the 2003 regular season consisted of 1) a 6 fumble, 1 INT outing, the immediate aftermath of which presented us with the revelation that Warner lied about the true nature of his hand injury, and 2) A 4-11 effort for 23 yards against flippin' DETROIT in a must-win game for home field throughout the playoffs. Which the Rams lost. Of course you keep Bulger in. Even if Bulger has thrown 3 picks on the day, Warner hasn't demonstrated an ability to move the ball at freakin' all that season. As for figgie vs. TD-common wisdom says play for OT at home, which is what Martz did, and he had his chance to frickin' win the game. "Money" missed in O/T.

You are also ignoring that Carolina probably would have locked down on passing options if Warner entered the came, since their defense is good like that, so the ball would likely have fallen incomplete.

Long-winded, if relatively truthful rant about the Rams' special teams, and Martz's handling of them.

Yeah, and I actually thought about putting my car in the creek that night for 5 seconds. I thought I actually took a double O/T loss at home and Jason Sehorn showing us all what a million dollars set on fire looks like rather well.

It's not like the starters have ever been able to tackle on special teams either, even with the revolving door of "best in the game" Special Teams coaches. At this point, I would simply suggest bringing in a priest and letting him do his thing.

-----------------------------------

Final Contextual edit-The Rams had not won a single game with Warner playing a down at the QB position since the 2001 postseason. With that in mind, why would any coach worth their chops bet their entire season on him?

[OldRamsFan]

Or did he really not suck, but there was some other reason he got benched and then sucked in NY?

He was benched in St. Louis after only two or three bad games. Mike Martz had no patience for him.

He didn't do that badly in New York. When he was benched, the Giants had a 5-4 record. He was benched mainly because his hand injury caused him to fumble a lot.

[Viper]

As a Larry Fitzgerald owner in a keeper, I'm sad to see him go. For my benefit, and Arizona's, let's hope Leinart isn't their solution.

I say give him a full year. He never really had a full year to do anything with the Cardinals. Once he got into the groove of the offense he was either benched or injured. I have a feeling it may be a rebuilding year as they are losing Berry, Warner and possibly Dockett and Boldin. They will still be on or near the top of the West, but I think this is the year for Leinart to step up for Arizona, or he may just be replaced by a draft pick or a veteran backup

Also, chances are Leinart has learned quite a bit about playing QB in this league just by getting to follow Warner up close, day in and day out for all this time, a la Aaron Rodgers for three seasons under Brett Favre. If he has, he may be quite a different QB from the Matt Leinart we saw in Arizona before Warner showed up. If not, then Leinart's just a fool who has no business playing in this league anyway.

And yes, the same goes for Tarvaris Jackson in Minnesota, albeit to a lesser degree since he's only had one year as Favre's understudy.

[infrared41]

Next stop Canton. Good work, Kurt.

Is he moving to Canton? Because that's the only reason he should go there. If you want to open a Hall of The Really Good and put Warner in it I'll be the first guy to vote for him but Kurt Warner is not a HOF QB. Sorry. And don't even start the "he led his team to three Super Bowls" BS.

[OldRamsFan]

Next stop Canton. Good work, Kurt.

Is he moving to Canton? Because that's the only reason he should go there. If you want to open a Hall of The Really Good and put Warner in it I'll be the first guy to vote for him but Kurt Warner is not a HOF QB. Sorry. And don't even start the "he led his team to three Super Bowls" BS.

Thankfully, you're in the minority with those thoughts.

I've not read or heard from one pundit who thinks Warner isn't a future HOFer.

[rams80]

Next stop Canton. Good work, Kurt.

Is he moving to Canton? Because that's the only reason he should go there. If you want to open a Hall of The Really Good and put Warner in it I'll be the first guy to vote for him but Kurt Warner is not a HOF QB. Sorry. And don't even start the "he led his team to three Super Bowls" BS.

Thankfully, you're in the minority with those thoughts.

I've not read or heard from one pundit who thinks Warner isn't a future HOFer.

I'm not a pundit, but I too would express my doubts. HOF careers don't go on figurative Walkabout for 3 or 4 years in the middle of them.

-------------------------------------

Following the 2001 NFC Championship Game, Warner was 0-8 as a starter for the Rams. He also had a badly mangled hand due to repeated injuries, showed definite signs of PTSD, and generally sucked in those losses. Despite that, Warner went into both 2002 and 2003 as the opening day starter in St. Louis.

Martz gave Warner plenty of chances. He likely still would have given him chances had the cap permitted him to keep both QBs on the roster.

Again-cap issues forced them to choose between Bulger and Warner after the 2003 season. While Bulger didn't have as high a performance ceiling as Warner, he was still 18-5 as a starter, did not have a jacked up hand or apparent psychological issues, and looked to be pretty damn good. Even more importantly, with the Rams supporting cast aging, they couldn't sit around a year or two to wait and see if Warner could work out those demons of his.

[The_Admiral]

Why "thankfully"? What validation do you get?

[CJworks]

It's sad to see Kurt go, but his career comebcak with the Cardinals definately put him near the top.

[infrared41]

Next stop Canton. Good work, Kurt.

Is he moving to Canton? Because that's the only reason he should go there. If you want to open a Hall of The Really Good and put Warner in it I'll be the first guy to vote for him but Kurt Warner is not a HOF QB. Sorry. And don't even start the "he led his team to three Super Bowls" BS.

Thankfully, you're in the minority with those thoughts.

I've not read or heard from one pundit who thinks Warner isn't a future HOFer.

Then you're not reading or hearing the same "pundits" I am. That aside, since when did the opinions of sports "pundits" start to carry so much weight? Hell, all it takes to be a sports "pundit" these days is a place to voice your opinion. Everyone here is a "pundit."

Oh and nice counter argument. Let me know how it goes when you and Kurt Warner head out for Canton.

[Sodboy13]

I would say that Warner is probably on the fringe for the Hall. There's probably not enough sustained success to get him in, but sentimentality might get him one of those ugly blazers after all. Regardless of whether he gets in or not, when Warner was playing and he was on his game, man, there was nothing like it. It could be real-life Tecmo Bowl, and it was fantastic to behold.

As a thoroughly lapsed Catholic, the extra-Jesusy stuff in pro sports really tends to grind my gears. (For instance, I can't wait for Tim Tebow to thank God for his relegation to the third string at some point during the coming season.) But with Warner, I dunno, it just always seemed much more legit, and much less preachy than what falls out of most athletes' mouths. It's how he lives his life, it's what he believes, and he's not trying to shovel it on you every blessed minute. Oh, and he's also given away millions of his own money to help the less fortunate, so that's a damn nice touch.

Also, this:

Today, we are all Barnstormers. (Freaking awesome.)

[infrared41]

I would say that Warner is probably on the fringe for the Hall. There's probably not enough sustained success to get him in, but sentimentality might get him one of those ugly blazers after all. Regardless of whether he gets in or not, when Warner was playing and he was on his game, man, there was nothing like it. It could be real-life Tecmo Bowl, and it was fantastic to behold.

As a thoroughly lapsed Catholic, the extra-Jesusy stuff in pro sports really tends to grind my gears. (For instance, I can't wait for Tim Tebow to thank God for his relegation to the third string at some point during the coming season.) But with Warner, I dunno, it just always seemed much more legit, and much less preachy than what falls out of most athletes' mouths. It's how he lives his life, it's what he believes, and he's not trying to shovel it on you every blessed minute. Oh, and he's also given away millions of his own money to help the less fortunate, so that's a damn nice touch.

Also, this:

Today, we are all Barnstormers. (Freaking awesome.)

This place offers up the occasional priceless moment. That post may be one of them.

[-kj]

I'm surprised by all the Warner HOF talk. A serviceable career with a couple hot flashes. Nothing to be ashamed of, for sure, but not Hall-of-Fame-worthy.

[infrared41]

I'm surprised by all the Warner HOF talk. A serviceable career with a couple hot flashes. Nothing to be ashamed of, for sure, but not Hall-of-Fame-worthy.

Yeah! What Mockba said!*

*I love it when someone comes along and in one sentence says what it takes me 35 different posts to articulate. Oh well, I never claimed to be concise.

[JayJaxon]

Let's face it, the Pro Football Hall of Fame is not difficult to get into. You don't have to be the greatest during your era to get in. Longevity has gotten people in, being the best for only a few years has got others in. Super Bowl trips and MVP awards get people in. Warner has 2 MVP awards and 3 Super Bowl trips with 1 win. This isn't the Baseball Hall of Fame we are talking about. This is Canton. On occasion the 'really good but not elite' will sneak into Cooperstown (I'm looking at you Jim Rice) But the 'really good but not elite' are always getting an invite to Canton.