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2010 MLB Season Thread


Gary

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None of those stats mean anything, though, but fortunately for your case he leads in the one that's most telling of how good he's been... FIP. I'll give you something to consider, though... CC plays in the 2nd best hitters park in the MLB, King Felix plays in the 2nd best pitchers park in the MLB. And CC does in it the division that has the 2 best lineups in baseball (not counting the Yankees), and a very powerful lineup in Toronto.

So... Innings Pitches, Quality Starts, WHIP, Strikeouts and ERA don't mean anything?

How the hell do you usually rate a pitcher?

I'm just saying...that synopsis quoted in purple came from a Red Sox fan. That's pretty telling in itself.

*Disclaimer: I am not an authoritative expert on stuff...I just do a lot of reading and research and keep in close connect with a bunch of people who are authoritative experts on stuff. 😁

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None of those stats mean anything, though, but fortunately for your case he leads in the one that's most telling of how good he's been... FIP. I'll give you something to consider, though... CC plays in the 2nd best hitters park in the MLB, King Felix plays in the 2nd best pitchers park in the MLB. And CC does in it the division that has the 2 best lineups in baseball (not counting the Yankees), and a very powerful lineup in Toronto.

So... Innings Pitches, Quality Starts, WHIP, Strikeouts and ERA don't mean anything?

How the hell do you usually rate a pitcher?

I'm just saying...that synopsis quoted in purple came from a Red Sox fan. That's pretty telling in itself.

I'm a Sox fan, as well. My vote for Felix has nothing to do with my affiliations.

Also, at Yankee Stadium this season, Hernandez is 2-0 in 2 starts with a 0.00 ERA. He's given up a total of 6 hits in 17 IP. And that's against the Yankee lineup. Not sure stadiums have anything to do with this.

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None of those stats mean anything, though, but fortunately for your case he leads in the one that's most telling of how good he's been... FIP. I'll give you something to consider, though... CC plays in the 2nd best hitters park in the MLB, King Felix plays in the 2nd best pitchers park in the MLB. And CC does in it the division that has the 2 best lineups in baseball (not counting the Yankees), and a very powerful lineup in Toronto.

So... Innings Pitches, Quality Starts, WHIP, Strikeouts and ERA don't mean anything?

How the hell do you usually rate a pitcher?

By team-dependent performance obviously.

/Don't get me started on RBIs being a overrated indicator of individual performance.

On 8/1/2010 at 4:01 PM, winters in buffalo said:
You manage to balance agitation with just enough salient points to keep things interesting. Kind of a low-rent DG_Now.
On 1/2/2011 at 9:07 PM, Sodboy13 said:
Today, we are all otaku.

"The city of Peoria was once the site of the largest distillery in the world and later became the site for mass production of penicillin. So it is safe to assume that present-day Peorians are descended from syphilitic boozehounds."-Stephen Colbert

POTD: February 15, 2010, June 20, 2010

The Glorious Bloom State Penguins (NCFAF) 2014: 2-9, 2015: 7-5 (L Pineapple Bowl), 2016: 1-0 (NCFAB) 2014-15: 10-8, 2015-16: 14-5 (SMC Champs, L 1st Round February Frenzy)

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None of those stats mean anything, though, but fortunately for your case he leads in the one that's most telling of how good he's been... FIP. I'll give you something to consider, though... CC plays in the 2nd best hitters park in the MLB, King Felix plays in the 2nd best pitchers park in the MLB. And CC does in it the division that has the 2 best lineups in baseball (not counting the Yankees), and a very powerful lineup in Toronto.

So... Innings Pitches, Quality Starts, WHIP, Strikeouts and ERA don't mean anything?

How the hell do you usually rate a pitcher?

By team-dependent performance obviously.

/Don't get me started on RBIs being a overrated indicator of individual performance.

Team-dependent being overall W/L of a team when a certain pitcher starts a game?

By that designation, if Pitcher A gives up 7 ER over 5 IP and gets a "win" decision, and Pitcher B gives up an unearned run over 9 IP and gets a "loss" decision, Pitcher A is more deserving of a Cy Young?

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None of those stats mean anything, though, but fortunately for your case he leads in the one that's most telling of how good he's been... FIP. I'll give you something to consider, though... CC plays in the 2nd best hitters park in the MLB, King Felix plays in the 2nd best pitchers park in the MLB. And CC does in it the division that has the 2 best lineups in baseball (not counting the Yankees), and a very powerful lineup in Toronto.

So... Innings Pitches, Quality Starts, WHIP, Strikeouts and ERA don't mean anything?

How the hell do you usually rate a pitcher?

I'm just saying...that synopsis quoted in purple came from a Red Sox fan. That's pretty telling in itself.

I'll give you Innings Pitched (and King Felix's advantage isn't that large in that category), and strikeouts and maybe WHIP to an extent. FIP is the best indicator of pitching performance; not ERA, not wins, and not quality starts. As I've mentioned before, if a pitchers ERA and FIP differ, over a large enough sample of time a pitchers ERA is far more likely to trend towards the ERA than it is vice versa. Like I said, though, Felix has the better FIP. But given the difference in the ballpark's and divisions the two play in, that's not completely telling.

FIP is better because it takes out the stats that are outside of a pitchers control -- it shows how well a guy pitched regardless of how his fielders fielded. It's about K's, HR's, and BB's. And considering CC plays his games in a park that balls have a tendency of flying out of at a much greater rate than the league average while the other plays in the park that sees less HR's than any in baseball, it has to be taken into consideration, in my opinion.

Actually probably the complete opposite of team-dependent.

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A .500 pitcher should never ever be considered for the Cy Young. If I had a vote, I would leave him off the ballot completly.

He has absolutely zero control over how his offense performs, so how is that fair? It's about who pitches the best, not who's the best pitcher on a team in the pennant race.

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A .500 pitcher should never ever be considered for the Cy Young. If I had a vote, I would leave him off the ballot completly.

He has absolutely zero control over how his offense performs, so how is that fair? It's about who pitches the best, not who's the best pitcher on a team in the pennant race.

I'm loving your sense of objectivity. That's not something I've encountered...well, ever...in my off-site interaction with Boston sports fans/natives.

You've given me new hope in that regard. :D

*Disclaimer: I am not an authoritative expert on stuff...I just do a lot of reading and research and keep in close connect with a bunch of people who are authoritative experts on stuff. 😁

|| dribbble || Behance ||

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According to ESPN, the Mariners have provided him 14 runs in his 12 losses.

When you look at the non-win stats, I don't think there is much question that he's performed best. So the question is, do you not vote for him because it's all meaningless-losing games for a losing team.

I think he's the best. But I admit the 12-12 thing would bother me a bit (even though it's completely unfair to him. I think I'd have him on the ballot, but I don't know that I'd have him on top.

That said, if he wins, I'll have no problem with that. And why? Because I cannot call him "undeserving". He deserves more wins and a better team.

Disclaimer: If this comment is about an NBA uniform from 2017-2018 or later, do not constitute a lack of acknowledgement of the corporate logo to mean anything other than "the corporate logo is terrible and makes the uniform significantly worse."

 

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One has to look no further than Steve Carlton to see how good a team you're on matters. In each of Carlton's three Cy Young wins (1977, 1980, 1982), the Phillies won at least 89 games. Sorry Felix, being on a last place team means no Cy Young for you.

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One has to look no further than Steve Carlton to see how good a team you're on matters. In each of Carlton's three Cy Young wins (1977, 1980, 1982), the Phillies won at least 89 games. Sorry Felix, being on a last place team means no Cy Young for you.

The Royals had 65 wins last year with eventual Cy Young winner Zack Greinke.

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A .500 pitcher should never ever be considered for the Cy Young. If I had a vote, I would leave him off the ballot completly.

He has absolutely zero control over how his offense performs, so how is that fair? It's about who pitches the best, not who's the best pitcher on a team in the pennant race.

I'm loving your sense of objectivity. That's not something I've encountered...well, ever...in my off-site interaction with Boston sports fans/natives.

You've given me new hope in that regard. :D

But is it really objectivity, or subjective bias against ignorance? :P

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None of those stats mean anything, though, but fortunately for your case he leads in the one that's most telling of how good he's been... FIP. I'll give you something to consider, though... CC plays in the 2nd best hitters park in the MLB, King Felix plays in the 2nd best pitchers park in the MLB. And CC does in it the division that has the 2 best lineups in baseball (not counting the Yankees), and a very powerful lineup in Toronto.

So... Innings Pitches, Quality Starts, WHIP, Strikeouts and ERA don't mean anything?

How the hell do you usually rate a pitcher?

I'm just saying...that synopsis quoted in purple came from a Red Sox fan. That's pretty telling in itself.

I'll give you Innings Pitched (and King Felix's advantage isn't that large in that category), and strikeouts and maybe WHIP to an extent. FIP is the best indicator of pitching performance; not ERA, not wins, and not quality starts. As I've mentioned before, if a pitchers ERA and FIP differ, over a large enough sample of time a pitchers ERA is far more likely to trend towards the ERA than it is vice versa. Like I said, though, Felix has the better FIP. But given the difference in the ballpark's and divisions the two play in, that's not completely telling.

FIP is better because it takes out the stats that are outside of a pitchers control -- it shows how well a guy pitched regardless of how his fielders fielded. It's about K's, HR's, and BB's. And considering CC plays his games in a park that balls have a tendency of flying out of at a much greater rate than the league average while the other plays in the park that sees less HR's than any in baseball, it has to be taken into consideration, in my opinion.

Actually probably the complete opposite of team-dependent.

I'll admit that I hate most of advanced statistics (I especially hate the sudden obsession with WAR that has come about this season). But I'm willing to take a closer look at them on this occasion. I haven't followed the AL Cy Young race recently, but it is much more interesting than I thought. Felix Hernandez certainly makes a case for the award, despite his poor record. You indicated that FIP doesn't take ballparks into account, but doesn't the stat ERA+? If so Felix Hernandez has an ERA+ of 169, much better than Sabathia (132) and Price (139). However he trails Clay Buchholz who has a 182.

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None of those stats mean anything, though, but fortunately for your case he leads in the one that's most telling of how good he's been... FIP. I'll give you something to consider, though... CC plays in the 2nd best hitters park in the MLB, King Felix plays in the 2nd best pitchers park in the MLB. And CC does in it the division that has the 2 best lineups in baseball (not counting the Yankees), and a very powerful lineup in Toronto.

So... Innings Pitches, Quality Starts, WHIP, Strikeouts and ERA don't mean anything?

How the hell do you usually rate a pitcher?

I'm just saying...that synopsis quoted in purple came from a Red Sox fan. That's pretty telling in itself.

I'll give you Innings Pitched (and King Felix's advantage isn't that large in that category), and strikeouts and maybe WHIP to an extent. FIP is the best indicator of pitching performance; not ERA, not wins, and not quality starts. As I've mentioned before, if a pitchers ERA and FIP differ, over a large enough sample of time a pitchers ERA is far more likely to trend towards the ERA than it is vice versa. Like I said, though, Felix has the better FIP. But given the difference in the ballpark's and divisions the two play in, that's not completely telling.

FIP is better because it takes out the stats that are outside of a pitchers control -- it shows how well a guy pitched regardless of how his fielders fielded. It's about K's, HR's, and BB's. And considering CC plays his games in a park that balls have a tendency of flying out of at a much greater rate than the league average while the other plays in the park that sees less HR's than any in baseball, it has to be taken into consideration, in my opinion.

Actually probably the complete opposite of team-dependent.

I'll admit that I hate most of advanced statistics (I especially hate the sudden obsession with WAR that has come about this season). But I'm willing to take a closer look at them on this occasion. I haven't followed the AL Cy Young race recently, but it is much more interesting than I thought. Felix Hernandez certainly makes a case for the award, despite his poor record. You indicated that FIP doesn't take ballparks into account, but doesn't the stat ERA+? If so Felix Hernandez has an ERA+ of 169, much better than Sabathia (132) and Price (139). However he trails Clay Buchholz who has a 182.

ERA+ does, but it still has the same flaws that ERA does in that it doesn't eliminate factors that are out of a pitchers control, like how good the defense behind him is, or batting average on balls in play.

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One has to look no further than Steve Carlton to see how good a team you're on matters. In each of Carlton's three Cy Young wins (1977, 1980, 1982), the Phillies won at least 89 games. Sorry Felix, being on a last place team means no Cy Young for you.

The Royals had 65 wins last year with eventual Cy Young winner Zack Greinke.

Grienke went 16-8.

He won 2/3 of his decisions, and topped 15 wins.

Felix is 12-12.

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One has to look no further than Steve Carlton to see how good a team you're on matters. In each of Carlton's three Cy Young wins (1977, 1980, 1982), the Phillies won at least 89 games. Sorry Felix, being on a last place team means no Cy Young for you.

The Royals had 65 wins last year with eventual Cy Young winner Zack Greinke.

Grienke went 16-8.

He won 2/3 of his decisions, and topped 15 wins.

Felix is 12-12.

Given how many people are suggesting the Mariners offense could literally be the worst offense in the modern era, and certainly appears to be worse than last years' Royals offense, I can easily see a four game swing in record there. Also: 14 runs TOTAL scored by the Mariners in his "losses". How the :censored: are you supposed to get above .500 when you have 1.17 repeating runs scored in support of yourself?! If he had 18-20 wins with that kind of run support, I wouldn't put him up for the Cy Young, I'd either work for his canonization and/or organize a religion dedicated to him (after administering a comprehensive drug test of course).

On 8/1/2010 at 4:01 PM, winters in buffalo said:
You manage to balance agitation with just enough salient points to keep things interesting. Kind of a low-rent DG_Now.
On 1/2/2011 at 9:07 PM, Sodboy13 said:
Today, we are all otaku.

"The city of Peoria was once the site of the largest distillery in the world and later became the site for mass production of penicillin. So it is safe to assume that present-day Peorians are descended from syphilitic boozehounds."-Stephen Colbert

POTD: February 15, 2010, June 20, 2010

The Glorious Bloom State Penguins (NCFAF) 2014: 2-9, 2015: 7-5 (L Pineapple Bowl), 2016: 1-0 (NCFAB) 2014-15: 10-8, 2015-16: 14-5 (SMC Champs, L 1st Round February Frenzy)

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Why are people still arguing with wins? Wins have almost nothing to do with the pitcher and almost everything to do with the quality of the offense. Felix gets no run support whatsoever, CC is a member of the franchise that buys up all the good hitters. Put CC in Seattle and he'd have a :censored:ty record too. These are known facts.

And even if wins were a legitimate statistic of judging a pitcher, Felix still beats CC in pretty much all other relevant pitching statistics. Quite frankly, this shouldn't even be a debate. Felix wins over CC, hands down.

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POTD: 2/4/12 3/4/12

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It's been (less than) a damn day and I'm already sick of the 14 runs in his 12 losses thing. In the majority of those losses, it hasn't been close. If you look at them closely, you'll see 2-one run losses, a two run loss, 2-three run losses, a four run loss, a five run loss, 2-six run losses, a seven run loss and 2-eight run losses. How many of those losses are we supposed to give King Felix credit for? You want to argue something that actually works in his favor, talk about the 1.92 ERA in his 9 no-decisions. Talk about how he's only given up 15 runs (1 unearned) in those NDs. At least that :censored: would make some sense.

On January 16, 2013 at 3:49 PM, NJTank said:

Btw this is old hat for Notre Dame. Knits Rockne made up George Tip's death bed speech.

 

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None of those stats mean anything, though, but fortunately for your case he leads in the one that's most telling of how good he's been... FIP. I'll give you something to consider, though... CC plays in the 2nd best hitters park in the MLB, King Felix plays in the 2nd best pitchers park in the MLB. And CC does in it the division that has the 2 best lineups in baseball (not counting the Yankees), and a very powerful lineup in Toronto.

So... Innings Pitches, Quality Starts, WHIP, Strikeouts and ERA don't mean anything?

How the hell do you usually rate a pitcher?

I'm just saying...that synopsis quoted in purple came from a Red Sox fan. That's pretty telling in itself.

I'll give you Innings Pitched (and King Felix's advantage isn't that large in that category), and strikeouts and maybe WHIP to an extent. FIP is the best indicator of pitching performance; not ERA, not wins, and not quality starts. As I've mentioned before, if a pitchers ERA and FIP differ, over a large enough sample of time a pitchers ERA is far more likely to trend towards the ERA than it is vice versa. Like I said, though, Felix has the better FIP. But given the difference in the ballpark's and divisions the two play in, that's not completely telling.

FIP is better because it takes out the stats that are outside of a pitchers control -- it shows how well a guy pitched regardless of how his fielders fielded. It's about K's, HR's, and BB's. And considering CC plays his games in a park that balls have a tendency of flying out of at a much greater rate than the league average while the other plays in the park that sees less HR's than any in baseball, it has to be taken into consideration, in my opinion.

Actually probably the complete opposite of team-dependent.

I'll admit that I hate most of advanced statistics (I especially hate the sudden obsession with WAR that has come about this season). But I'm willing to take a closer look at them on this occasion. I haven't followed the AL Cy Young race recently, but it is much more interesting than I thought. Felix Hernandez certainly makes a case for the award, despite his poor record. You indicated that FIP doesn't take ballparks into account, but doesn't the stat ERA+? If so Felix Hernandez has an ERA+ of 169, much better than Sabathia (132) and Price (139). However he trails Clay Buchholz who has a 182.

ERA+ does, but it still has the same flaws that ERA does in that it doesn't eliminate factors that are out of a pitchers control, like how good the defense behind him is, or batting average on balls in play.

Ehh, I am not a fan of ERA+. It's just basically ERA repackaged and it doesn't solve ERA's flaws. I know you hate WAR (which is far more than a year old) Baltimore, but on Fangraphs.com WAR is calculated using FIP as a base and adjusting for defense and run environment. I like it much more than ERA+. However, I think the best pitching stat is tRA, which takes into account everything the pitcher is responsible and corrects for everything he is not, primarily using batted ball data, which is ingenious IMO. FIP only considers three things which cover a pretty good amount of pitching, but in my opinion tRA is even better. As you can see, it can be converted to tRA+ and a differently calculated WAR, as well.

On that note let me introduce someone else to the discussion: Cliff Lee. I don't want to blindly follow advanced stats, but all advanced metrics (FIP, both WARs, tRA) have him pretty well ahead of Felix. I'm guessing this is due in large part to post ridiculous K/BB numbers. In over 200 innings, he has thrown over 9 strikeouts per walk. OVER 9 STRIKEOUTS BETWEEN WALKS. That is unbelievable. Also, he has had some bad luck which makes his stint with Texas look worse than it actually is. His inconsistent performance in Texas probably will take him out of the serious contenders and I can't blame anyone for forgetting him, but has somehow flown under the radar while having an ordinarily amazing campaign.

One has to look no further than Steve Carlton to see how good a team you're on matters. In each of Carlton's three Cy Young wins (1977, 1980, 1982), the Phillies won at least 89 games. Sorry Felix, being on a last place team means no Cy Young for you.

The Royals had 65 wins last year with eventual Cy Young winner Zack Greinke.

Grienke went 16-8.

He won 2/3 of his decisions, and topped 15 wins.

Felix is 12-12.

Can you please explain exactly why Greinke's (or CC's, or anyone's) better win-loss record automatically means he is a better pitcher and removes the need to look at any other factors?

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