Saskatchewan Roughriders Centennial Jersey

[oddball]

Perhaps they were technically the same franchise, but for all intents and purposes it was different - different owners, different colours, different identity. The St. Pats and Leafs have about as much shared history and tradition as the Carolina Hurricanes and the Hartford Whalers, or the Cleveland Barons and the San Jose Sharks.

It seems to me that the Riders move is at best an adoption of irrelevant, ugly jerseys for no good reason, while at worst it is a cynically manipulative attempt at getting their fans to buy some "retro" jerseys which few living beings would even associate with the club.

Well let's pick apart your statement here. Cleveland Barons and the San Jose Sharks have no shared history. You are correct, sir! The San Jose Sharks came from nothing. Oh, okay, you want to argue the fact that the owners of the Minnesota North Stars which the Cleveland Barons merged with whom those same Barons came from Oakland have something to do with San Jose? That's a stretch, a stretch so far as to say the Sharks have yet to wear Seals crap, and probably never will as it has nothing to do with them.

Now the Carolina Hurricanes have no shared history and tradition with the Hartford Whalers? HUH?! So the Calgary Flames have no history with the Atlanta Flames, the Winnipeg Jets have no history with the Phoenix Coyotes, the Colorado Avalanche with the Nordiques, the New Jersey Devils with the Colorado Rockies and the Kansas City Scouts? Uh, that's utter and pure Bull Crap! It's where they came from.

[walby2]

Now the Carolina Hurricanes have no shared history and tradition with the Hartford Whalers? HUH?! So the Calgary Flames have no history with the Atlanta Flames, the Winnipeg Jets have no history with the Phoenix Coyotes, the Colorado Avalanche with the Nordiques, the New Jersey Devils with the Colorado Rockies and the Kansas City Scouts? Uh, that's utter and pure Bull Crap! It's where they came from.

Sorry, but no amount of sophistry will make these jerseys a) attractive or relevant to anyone except for sports historians. Not that the Roughriders care so long as the cash registers keep ringing, though.

[oddball]

Now the Carolina Hurricanes have no shared history and tradition with the Hartford Whalers? HUH?! So the Calgary Flames have no history with the Atlanta Flames, the Winnipeg Jets have no history with the Phoenix Coyotes, the Colorado Avalanche with the Nordiques, the New Jersey Devils with the Colorado Rockies and the Kansas City Scouts? Uh, that's utter and pure Bull Crap! It's where they came from.

Sorry, but no amount of sophistry will make these jerseys a) attractive or relevant to anyone except for sports historians. Not that the Roughriders care so long as the cash registers keep ringing, though.

I never said that the jerseys were good-looking. I just said that you actually need to do some research before you make statements that can be proven wrong.

[walby2]

Now the Carolina Hurricanes have no shared history and tradition with the Hartford Whalers? HUH?! So the Calgary Flames have no history with the Atlanta Flames, the Winnipeg Jets have no history with the Phoenix Coyotes, the Colorado Avalanche with the Nordiques, the New Jersey Devils with the Colorado Rockies and the Kansas City Scouts? Uh, that's utter and pure Bull Crap! It's where they came from.

Sorry, but no amount of sophistry will make these jerseys a) attractive or relevant to anyone except for sports historians. Not that the Roughriders care so long as the cash registers keep ringing, though.

I never said that the jerseys were good-looking. I just said that you actually need to do some research before you make statements that can be proven wrong.

How is it wrong? You're telling me that the New Jersey Devils are the Colorado Rockies? Or that the Phoenix Coyotes are the Winnipeg Jets? Or that the Toronto Maple Leafs are the Toronto St. Patricks?

Using that logic I guess we can conclude that Prince Charles is Queen Elizabeth since there is a "shared history" there. Well of course not - just as with all of the other examples they are two separate entities.

(As for the Cleveland Barons and the San Jose Sharks...not sure why you got your back up at that example since we both agree they are separate.)

[IceCap]

Queen Elizabeth II and Prince Charles are two different people.

The Colorado Rockies and the New Jersey Devils are the same franchise.

[walby2]

Queen Elizabeth II and Prince Charles are two different people.

The Colorado Rockies and the New Jersey Devils are the same franchise.

Different location, different owners, different name, different colours, different tradition. If you let me at the corporate documents I bet we'd find that they probably aren't even the same legal entity. They are the "same franchise" only in the sentimental minds of amateur historians.

[Gothamite]

"Amateur historians" like, for example, the National Hockey League?

If you let me at the corporate documents I bet we'd find that they probably aren't even the same legal entity.

Actually, I suspect that if you did, you'd find they are the same legal entity. The entity might have been renamed with the team, but not dissolved. Creating a new legal entity is a long, complicated and expensive process. Renaming one is fairly simple.

Now, some teams don't play up their past incarnations (the Brewers/Seattle Pilots come to mind), but that doesn't magically sever the connection.

[oddball]

Queen Elizabeth II and Prince Charles are two different people.

The Colorado Rockies and the New Jersey Devils are the same franchise.

Different location, different owners, different name, different colours, different tradition. If you let me at the corporate documents I bet we'd find that they probably aren't even the same legal entity. They are the "same franchise" only in the sentimental minds of amateur historians.

So based on Walby's criteria, why when you go to the Phoenix Coyotes site, and look under history do they have the Winnipeg Jets and they have the retired numbers of Hull, Howerchuck, Steen, and Numminen in the rafters? Why when you go to the Washington Nationals history page that they list Vladamir Guerrero, Andre Dawson, and Gary Carter as their franchise leaders in hits? It's always amusing to me when you give solid concrete facts that would stand up in the Court of Law as factual, that some people in their hysterical minds can't deal with the facts. Walby, you want the truth? YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!

[MC Buffalo]

Using that logic I guess we can conclude that Prince Charles is Queen Elizabeth since there is a "shared history" there. Well of course not - just as with all of the other examples they are two separate entities.

Wait a minute, you can't possibly think you can slide this one past everyone as an example that would support your point of view. No one arguing the other side of the discussion ever gave an example that implied your Prince Charles/Queen Elizabeth point...

Before a Woman was married her name was Mary Smith, after she married she took her husbands surname and became Mary Brown. Are you saying that Mary Smith and Mary Brown are two different people?

Of course your welcome to think whatever you like regarding the subject, but don't just throw out examples until thought out.

[walby2]

So based on Walby's criteria, why when you go to the Phoenix Coyotes site, and look under history do they have the Winnipeg Jets and they have the retired numbers of Hull, Howerchuck, Steen, and Numminen in the rafters? Why when you go to the Washington Nationals history page that they list Vladamir Guerrero, Andre Dawson, and Gary Carter as their franchise leaders in hits? It's always amusing to me when you give solid concrete facts that would stand up in the Court of Law as factual, that some people in their hysterical minds can't deal with the facts. Walby, you want the truth? YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!

Simple. By embracing history (even if it isn't theirs) it gives them something to sell. Just think, the retro jerseys, the "Dale Hawerchuk Night" where fans come to see the number raised to the rafters, the faux veneer of tradition that makes the Washington Nationals or the Phoenix Coyotes seem like more than they are, even though they are completely separate from the current incarnations of the teams.

And to Gothamite's point, it is no trouble at all to create a new legal entity. It is done all the time. A visit to a lawyer's office to set up a new corporation and an asset sale agreement are essentially it. But that is really just a detail anyway.

Learn to think critically; don't just accept without question whatever someone trying to fleece you says. It's a skill that will come in handy in life. "Oh, the NHL says that the Coyotes are basically the Jets so it must be true!"

[MC Buffalo]

Oh yeah and I forgot to add...

Those jerseys are hideous

As are the New York Titan, Green Bay Packer, Philadelphia Eagle, Detroit Lions throwbacks.

All football teams should use the following criteria when deciding how far back they should go with their throwbacks (in my humble opinion)...

You can go as far back as the first Uniform set where the helmet you wore had a logo on it. Just about all teams that began around 1960 or earlier began without any logo on the helmet, but if they really were concerned about being accurate to the 1930 or 40's shouldn't the helmets the Packers and Eagles wear during their throwback weekend be made of leather?