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"The 12th Man" blows. Why would I want to proudly consider myself one-seventythousandth of a man?

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No I don't. Probably because I don't act as if everything I do twice is automatically a tradition.

Twice? 12th Man has been around since 1922.

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"The 12th Man" blows. Why would I want to proudly consider myself ?

"one-seventythousandth of a man" is itself an integral part of the tradition. It symbolizes unity between fan and team.

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"The 12th Man" blows. Why would I want to proudly consider myself one-seventythousandth of a man?

I never got that either, and I AM a Seahawks fan. But this is the same organization that brought the world THIS:

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whoosh!

Actually, it didn't go over my head. I did understand that it was a joke.

I was just explaining that your joke actually contained an element of truth in it.

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I'm pulling for the Saints first and foremost because I still like Drew Brees from his time in San Diego. If the Seahawks pull off the upset, however, I'll jump on the bandwagon. The mere fact that a 7-9 team made the playoffs has delivered the hilarity/awesomeness. If they manage to get to (let alone win) the Super Bowl? Epic.

"The 12th Man" blows. Why would I want to proudly consider myself ?

"one-seventythousandth of a man" is itself an integral part of the tradition. It symbolizes unity between fan and team.

Today we are all Aggies?

Look, I dislike the use of "we" as much as the next guy in sports, but I concede that it's appropriate for university teams. The whole 12th Man thing for Texas A&M, however, crosses the line. It's fine to say "we won" in reference to the team representing the institution you attend or attended, but to delude yourself into thinking you're actually part of the team? It's sad at best and cult-like at worst.

And yes, it's just as bad (maybe even worse) when the Seahawks do it, in case you're wondering.

Whatever happened to just sitting back and rooting for a team you like without going insane?

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"The 12th Man" blows. Why would I want to proudly consider myself ?

"one-seventythousandth of a man" is itself an integral part of the tradition. It symbolizes unity between fan and team.

Today we are all Aggies?

That's another thread. :rolleyes:

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(Trust me, if anyone else was in San Diego with the talent they have, you'd have multiple Super Bowl trophies there)

*watches the Chargers dismantle the Colts and Chiefs*

How the hell do you screw this deal up Norv?

But does that mean you'll change your tune if it happens again? How many times till you're up in arms too?

Ultimately I'll echo 'red. It could happen every year and it wouldn't affect me (or anyone sane really).

If you want a serious attempt at justifying it, it's that every team knows what has to be done to make the playoffs. The Seahawks aren't getting any special treatment, the simply played by the rules all other 31 teams played by and ended up on top in their division.

I personally wouldn't care if more people had some perspective and not let this bother them. Instead they're acting like the world's going to end. It's the overreaction that I find amusing and which drives me to hope the 'Hawks succeed come playoff time.

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No preparation, no motivation, no creativity. He curls up into a ball and calls safe plays every time he faces a physical team, and that's why we continually get exposed by the Steelers, the Patriots, and now the Raiders. He never gets angry or even emotional during our patented slow starts, which have become a pattern because Norv has created an environment where they're acceptable. He sits back and expects the team to be self-motivated and basically coach themselves, because he's lucked into a few players that do that (Rivers, Gates). He also gets no help in the draft or free agency due to AJ and Dean's cheapness, and AJ continues to sabotage seasons with his stubbornness over contracts. THAT'S how this deal got screwed up.

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BTW, the site also pointed out that the Saints-Seahawks game will be the first played under the new St. Brett Memorial Overtime Rule (my name for it, not theirs). So remember, 3 won't win it in OT any more, at least not on the first possession. Can't wait to see the reaction when, as inevitably will happen, a team kicks a FG that would have advanced them under the old rules but they end up losing under the new.

Which makes me think, does that change coaches' decision-making on 4th down in OT? Say it's 4th and goal at the two. If you get a TD, you win now; if you kick a FG you could still lose the game. If you go for it and don't get it, you have them pinned back and can play field position. What would you do?

Hopefully people will say "The old rule was bull- :censored:. It's nice to see that it takes more than winning the toss and getting a couple first downs to win a playoff game in OT." They won't say that, but I'm hoping they will. More likely it will be met with the same sort of breathless hysteria that a 7-9 team making the playoffs was met with. This is the NFL. We are NFL fans. Overreacting is what we do. :D

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No preparation, no motivation, no creativity. He curls up into a ball and calls safe plays every time he faces a physical team, and that's why we continually get exposed by the Steelers, the Patriots, and now the Raiders. He never gets angry or even emotional during our patented slow starts, which have become a pattern because Norv has created an environment where they're acceptable. He sits back and expects the team to be self-motivated and basically coach themselves, because he's lucked into a few players that do that (Rivers, Gates). He also gets no help in the draft or free agency due to AJ and Dean's cheapness, and AJ continues to sabotage seasons with his stubbornness over contracts. THAT'S how this deal got screwed up.

Isn't a bigger check and and a Super Bowl ring enough motivation ?

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Mangini out in Cleveland. The only bad move Mike Holmgren has made in his first year with the organization.

I think it's his best move yet. Sure he led the team to wins over New Orleans and New England, but you also have to consider that his teams weren't ready for games against inferior opponents (i.e. Buffalo and Cincinnati, and almost losing to Carolina), and the Browns lost countless games by less than a touchdown. When you can't win a close game, that's the coach's fault, not the players' IMO.

It's really neither. It is random. If Mangini won all the close game this season, was he (and the players) that much better than the year prior? We look for a clear explanation when there are none. The NFL is more random than the other major North American team sports and it gains more scrutiny because there are so little games in the season.

If I could make a poker reference here, just for a moment or 2... Mangini wasn't playing with a full deck. He had only 2 aces (Haden, Thomas) and 3 Kings (Ward, Hillis, Mack). Other than that, he had a bunch of 3's, 4's and 5's.

OK... now for something a little less convoluted. The Browns have sub-par talent. There are SOME pieces in place with Haden, Ward, Thomas, Mack, Fujita, Watson, and Hodges, who is a Punter... we are hoping that Hillis and McCoy are going to be the real deal. That's 9 players out of 24. That's just not enough players to be successful with. I look at the New England, New Orleans, and New York games, and I think they may be an anomaly considering they lost Buffalo and Cincinnati. But then I look at it further... they Browns were peaking around mid-season. I look further into the schedule, people are saying they should have beaten Kansas City and Tampa Bay... well both were in the playoff hunt and KC made the show this year. Hell, the Browns played a top 10 Strength of Schedule. If Stuckey runs out of bounds, the Browns beat the Jets. If Hillis doesn't fumble late in the 4th quarter, the Browns beat Tampa Bay. Coulda shoulda woulda, but it holds water. Again, they lost to Buffalo and Cinci, but I don't see how you can blame a coach for the PLAYERS playing DOWN to the competition. There is only so much hootin' and hollerin' a coach can do. When players go out there and dog it against poor competition, how do you put that on the coach? Not only that, even the elite teams in the league have have all lost to 1 or 2 teams that they had no business losing to. The Browns losing to Cinci or Buffalo? Sure... seems about right, it could happen. New England getting blown out by the Browns? No way. New Orleans getting blown out by the Browns and losing to the Cardinals? No way. The Ravens losing to the Bengals? No way. I think all those teams had a lot less business losing to that poor talent than the Browns did to their 2 poor loses.

Now, I am the last person to blame injuries. I hate that excuse... but every week I would read the Injury Report, and I'm pretty sure there were more names on the Browns Injury Report than there are people in my work directory... and I work for the City of Akron. Then I look at the actual injuries... Fujita and Jackson, our 2 best Line Backers, out. #1 and #2 QB's on depth chart, out... rookie #3 playing injured. Our top play maker, Cribbs, playing all season with knee and ankle injuries, and the last few games with 4 dislocated toes on 1 foot. Sheldon Brown, our best CB this season had numerous shoulder injuries all year. Our awful receivers, Massouqoui and Robiski, were banged up to start the year. Our second TE (which, coincidentally enough, was our second best receiver), didn't play the second half of the season because of injuries. Our Pro Bowl RB Hillis has had thigh and rib problems all year. Not only that, Montario Hardesty, the rookie from Tennessee was supposed to be the #1 back coming into the season went down for the year. The right side of our offensive line has been an absolute revolving door. Lavaou and Pacshos were supposed to solidify the right side, but I think only played 1 game together, due to injuries. Billy Yates filled in great, and was on his way to a Pro Bowl caliber season, and HE goes down. Not only that, there was a 3-4 week stretch where Thomas and Mack were playing hurt. Steinback - the guy we had 0 expectations for - actually had the best season on our O-line. And our defensive line? Don't get me started... they were more banged up than the Offensive Line. Brian Schaefering, Derreck Robinson... being starters? I'm pretty sure they are practice squad guys. And that's where the problem comes full circle. The Browns basically had 2nd, 3rd, and 4th string, special teams players, starting all year, because of the mountain of injuries. Ray Ventrone, Sabby Piscitelli, and Nick Sorensen getting significant playing time this year? Please. The problem shows up the most, not on Sunday, but Monday-Friday... when your starters are hurt, you second and third string are the only guys getting the reps, but come Sunday, you still gotta go with your most talented guys, and that's not the second and third string. It's hard to win consistently when you can't put the same 11 players on the field consistently.

Not only that... I look at the body of work the last 2 years. He got rid of terrible contracts and head cases like Winslow and Edwards. Thank you, Eric, we owe you. He drafted Alex Mack, who, by all accounts, will be a Pro Bowler in the near future, and Atyba Rubin, who ended up having a great seasons as NT. Sure, he drafted Robiski and Massaqoui, they are no #1 receivers... but they look decent when you put a Julio Jones or AJ Green as the #1. He also traded for guys like Abe Elam, Jason Trusnik, and Chansi Stucky, who, are not super starts, but very serviceable players. He signed D'Qwell Jackson who was probably our best LB before getting hurt. And Mangini was responsible for getting Hillis. He went into Holmgren's office and said I want Hillis, do what you have to do to get him... that sure makes Holmgren look like a genius doesn't it?

Lastly, I look at the team from 2 years ago to last year... they were exponentially better last year. Then I look at the team from last year to this year... and the team was exponentially better this year. It seems, for the first time since the Browns have been back, that Clevelanders can say the team was on the right track.

Again... I hate blaming injuries, and believe me, I know EVERY team deals with them... but when you are a team that is playing with sub-par talent, a team that is playing above their heads for most of the year (they really were only blown out of 2 games, both against Pittsburgh), all those injuries add up. Not only does the practice suffer, but there is no chemistry formed. You can't win when the small pool of talent you do have is either out for the season, or playing every game injured.

And that's the problem with some of these dumbass Cleveland fans... they don't understand that building a championship caliber team takes time. You aren't going to be contenders after 1 draft, or 1 year with a coach, or 1 year with a President. It takes time to get the right pieces together to grow and mesh together.

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Mangini out in Cleveland. The only bad move Mike Holmgren has made in his first year with the organization.

I think it's his best move yet. Sure he led the team to wins over New Orleans and New England, but you also have to consider that his teams weren't ready for games against inferior opponents (i.e. Buffalo and Cincinnati, and almost losing to Carolina), and the Browns lost countless games by less than a touchdown. When you can't win a close game, that's the coach's fault, not the players' IMO.

It's really neither. It is random. If Mangini won all the close game this season, was he (and the players) that much better than the year prior? We look for a clear explanation when there are none. The NFL is more random than the other major North American team sports and it gains more scrutiny because there are so little games in the season.

If I could make a poker reference here, just for a moment or 2... Mangini wasn't playing with a full deck. He had only 2 aces (Haden, Thomas) and 3 Kings (Ward, Hillis, Mack). Other than that, he had a bunch of 3's, 4's and 5's.

OK... now for something a little less convoluted. The Browns have sub-par talent. There are SOME pieces in place with Haden, Ward, Thomas, Mack, Fujita, Watson, and Hodges, who is a Punter... we are hoping that Hillis and McCoy are going to be the real deal. That's 9 players out of 24. That's just not enough players to be successful with. I look at the New England, New Orleans, and New York games, and I think they may be an anomaly considering they lost Buffalo and Cincinnati. But then I look at it further... they Browns were peaking around mid-season. I look further into the schedule, people are saying they should have beaten Kansas City and Tampa Bay... well both were in the playoff hunt and KC made the show this year. Hell, the Browns played a top 10 Strength of Schedule. If Stuckey runs out of bounds, the Browns beat the Jets. If Hillis doesn't fumble late in the 4th quarter, the Browns beat Tampa Bay. Coulda shoulda woulda, but it holds water. Again, they lost to Buffalo and Cinci, but I don't see how you can blame a coach for the PLAYERS playing DOWN to the competition. There is only so much hootin' and hollerin' a coach can do. When players go out there and dog it against poor competition, how do you put that on the coach? Not only that, even the elite teams in the league have have all lost to 1 or 2 teams that they had no business losing to. The Browns losing to Cinci or Buffalo? Sure... seems about right, it could happen. New England getting blown out by the Browns? No way. New Orleans getting blown out by the Browns and losing to the Cardinals? No way. The Ravens losing to the Bengals? No way. I think all those teams had a lot less business losing to that poor talent than the Browns did to their 2 poor loses.

Still, part of the reason as to why the Browns have sub-par talent is Mangini's inability to draft a playmaker. With the pick the Browns ended up taking Alex Mack with, they could have either not traded it to Philly and drafted Maclin, or came back with Philly's pick and drafted Percy Harvin, who either of them, I think, would do more for the team than Alex Mack has. Not saying Mack's been a disappointment at all though. Also, their performance against NE, NO, and NYJ is a result of the team being well-prepared in practice the week before, while their performances against BUF, CAR, and CIN was a result of being underprepared in practice. I firmly believe that playing down to your competition is solely the coach's responsibility. That's what he's paid to do, make sure the "hootin' and hollerin'" works. He went 5-11 last year with a team that had less talent. He went 5-11 this year, when the team should have been at least 8-8 (Buffalo, Cincinnati, and the choke in Jacksonville).

Now, I am the last person to blame injuries. I hate that excuse... but every week I would read the Injury Report, and I'm pretty sure there were more names on the Browns Injury Report than there are people in my work directory... and I work for the City of Akron. Then I look at the actual injuries... Fujita and Jackson, our 2 best Line Backers, out. #1 and #2 QB's on depth chart, out... rookie #3 playing injured. Our top play maker, Cribbs, playing all season with knee and ankle injuries, and the last few games with 4 dislocated toes on 1 foot. Sheldon Brown, our best CB this season had numerous shoulder injuries all year. Our awful receivers, Massouqoui and Robiski, were banged up to start the year. Our second TE (which, coincidentally enough, was our second best receiver), didn't play the second half of the season because of injuries. Our Pro Bowl RB Hillis has had thigh and rib problems all year. Not only that, Montario Hardesty, the rookie from Tennessee was supposed to be the #1 back coming into the season went down for the year. The right side of our offensive line has been an absolute revolving door. Lavaou and Pacshos were supposed to solidify the right side, but I think only played 1 game together, due to injuries. Billy Yates filled in great, and was on his way to a Pro Bowl caliber season, and HE goes down. Not only that, there was a 3-4 week stretch where Thomas and Mack were playing hurt. Steinback - the guy we had 0 expectations for - actually had the best season on our O-line. And our defensive line? Don't get me started... they were more banged up than the Offensive Line. Brian Schaefering, Derreck Robinson... being starters? I'm pretty sure they are practice squad guys. And that's where the problem comes full circle. The Browns basically had 2nd, 3rd, and 4th string, special teams players, starting all year, because of the mountain of injuries. Ray Ventrone, Sabby Piscitelli, and Nick Sorensen getting significant playing time this year? Please. The problem shows up the most, not on Sunday, but Monday-Friday... when your starters are hurt, you second and third string are the only guys getting the reps, but come Sunday, you still gotta go with your most talented guys, and that's not the second and third string. It's hard to win consistently when you can't put the same 11 players on the field consistently.

But this is the same banged up team that won in New Orleans, at home against New England, and almost beat the Jets. They showed in those games they had the talent to get it done.

Not only that... I look at the body of work the last 2 years. He got rid of terrible contracts and head cases like Winslow and Edwards. Thank you, Eric, we owe you. He drafted Alex Mack, who, by all accounts, will be a Pro Bowler in the near future, and Atyba Rubin, who ended up having a great seasons as NT. Sure, he drafted Robiski and Massaqoui, they are no #1 receivers... but they look decent when you put a Julio Jones or AJ Green as the #1. He also traded for guys like Abe Elam, Jason Trusnik, and Chansi Stucky, who, are not super starts, but very serviceable players. He signed D'Qwell Jackson who was probably our best LB before getting hurt. And Mangini was responsible for getting Hillis. He went into Holmgren's office and said I want Hillis, do what you have to do to get him... that sure makes Holmgren look like a genius doesn't it?

The issue is though, I don't think Mangini would have drafted Jones or Green though. He's passed on Crabtree, Maclin, Harvin, and Dez Bryant the past two years. I really don't think anything would have changed.

Lastly, I look at the team from 2 years ago to last year... they were exponentially better last year. Then I look at the team from last year to this year... and the team was exponentially better this year. It seems, for the first time since the Browns have been back, that Clevelanders can say the team was on the right track.

The talent may be better, but the record's only increased by one win. When Romeo was fired, the Browns were coming off of a 4-12 season. They've gone 5-11 the past two years. If the players are so much better, why is the record only a game better a year? Also remember, the Browns did start 1-11 last season, so even going 5-11 was kind of a fluke.

Again... I hate blaming injuries, and believe me, I know EVERY team deals with them... but when you are a team that is playing with sub-par talent, a team that is playing above their heads for most of the year (they really were only blown out of 2 games, both against Pittsburgh), all those injuries add up. Not only does the practice suffer, but there is no chemistry formed. You can't win when the small pool of talent you do have is either out for the season, or playing every game injured.

But still, winning the close games comes down to a play call or two, play calls that Mangini couldn't make. You also stated in the above paragraph, the team's talent is exponentially better than 2008, yet here you complain about sub-par talent. Which is it?

My responses are in green and bolded.

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Look, I dislike the use of "we" as much as the next guy in sports, but I concede that it's appropriate for university teams. The whole 12th Man thing for Texas A&M, however, crosses the line. It's fine to say "we won" in reference to the team representing the institution you attend or attended, but to delude yourself into thinking you're actually part of the team? It's sad at best and cult-like at worst.

And yes, it's just as bad (maybe even worse) when the Seahawks do it, in case you're wondering.

Whatever happened to just sitting back and rooting for a team you like without going insane?

No one,not an Aggie fan or a Seahawk fan, has deluded himself to thinking he's actually part of the team. They just love their football teams and want to make an impact on the game.

And they often do make an impact on the game.

But I've been to Aggie games and can tell you that it's unbelievable how loud it gets. And from what I saw on TV the other night, it seems like the Seahawk fans are the pro version of that.

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BTW, the site also pointed out that the Saints-Seahawks game will be the first played under the new St. Brett Memorial Overtime Rule (my name for it, not theirs). So remember, 3 won't win it in OT any more, at least not on the first possession. Can't wait to see the reaction when, as inevitably will happen, a team kicks a FG that would have advanced them under the old rules but they end up losing under the new.

Which makes me think, does that change coaches' decision-making on 4th down in OT? Say it's 4th and goal at the two. If you get a TD, you win now; if you kick a FG you could still lose the game. If you go for it and don't get it, you have them pinned back and can play field position. What would you do?

Hopefully people will say "The old rule was bull- :censored:. It's nice to see that it takes more than winning the toss and getting a couple first downs to win a playoff game in OT." They won't say that, but I'm hoping they will. More likely it will be met with the same sort of breathless hysteria that a 7-9 team making the playoffs was met with. This is the NFL. We are NFL fans. Overreacting is what we do. :D

I like the rule itself, but I don't like that its being enacted for the playoffs. The playoffs should be consistent with the regular season when it comes to rules. I won't overreact if the rule does come into effect this postseason. However I will insist that it becomes a part of the next regular season, which I'm doing now anyway.

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