Hockey Traditionalists Nightmare - Bettman Must Go

[Phil]

A lot of what you say makes sense BiB... but we've had a few non-traditional finalists in the past, and after the joy of being in the Finals is gone, many of them sank back quickly to their prior mediocrity of support, if not lower. Anaheim, Carolina, and Florida spring to mind.

The problem is, the NHL is trying to grow, but are undercutting their fanbase instead of growing it. They're alienating hockey fans in traditional hockey markets like Quebec and Winnipeg, while trying to sell hockey in non-traditional markets where it's comparable to selling umbrellas to fish.

The NHL had a point in trying to grow their appeal southward. No problem with that. A few of those have worked (San Jose and Dallas spring to mind). However they did not have the support of major TV networks nor the money to persistently market the game effectively. And in trying to grow their appeal, they thumbed their collective noses at smaller hockey-loving markets where a little bit of planning and cash (not nearly at the scale of southern expansion) would have gone a long way.

[Shmee]

One of the best arguments ever.

Brian in Boston

Very informative, very thought-out, strong argument. Well done. I edited your text a bit because it was long as hell and wouldn't be sensible to quote the entire thing here.

[winters in buffalo]

I don't consider San Jose in the Sun Belt. I don't have a map in front of me, but isn't San Jose as far south as D.C., or at most, Atlanta?

I don't have the greatest map here, but by my best estimate, SJ is roughly as far north as Richmond, VA, and not much further south than St. Louis.

Teams that are more southern than the Sharks:

Kings

Ducks

Coyotes

Stars

Predators

Hurricanes

Thrashers

Lightning

Panthers

That's almost 1/3 of the League.

[habsfannova]

Reminds me of an interesting story.....

One of my very good friends is French-Canadian, and was a big Nords fan. He recently went online and bought one of the Vintage Nords jerseys (A Goulet one). He bragged about it and we talked about the rivalry for about 1/2 an hour. Then, the conversation turned interesting. I asked him who he wanted to win the cup.

San Jose.

I asked him why. He said becasue the team reminds him of what makes hockey so great: Teamwork, combination of checking and scoring, fast play. I asked him, why aren't you going for a Candadian team, since the new teams are displacing them? He simply replied that the fans seem happy in Jose, and that hockey shouldn't be restricted to Canada. "I hope they make the fans there as happy as I was with the Nords." He also said that you can't blame the teams that are new, they deserve as much a shot as the oldest ones. Just blame the greedy businessmen. I agreed with him. He said that was why he hated Colorado.

So I of course told him the profit on his jersey went to them. He thought, and then of course sighed.

[NJTank]

I dont think the Sharks making it to the finals is that bad. I mean its not the Mighty Ducks or Coyotes could you imagine the horror is the Devils didn't win last year?

[Braden]

I understand both arguments, and I partially agree with both, but the problem I have is... if there is a TB/SJ final, who the HELL is going to watch it? Who the hell is gonna care? Not many people outside of TB & SJ to be honest. I don't mean the sports fanatics that we are, I mean the general public. In recent years in the major sports, whenever there are low-publicity teams in the finals, nobody gives a crap. In baseball, when the Angels beat the Giants a couple of years ago, TV ratings plummeted. I know it sucks cause the Angels deserved to win and all, but it sucks that it majorly hurts the publicity of the game to the general public.

I really hate to say this, but a TB/SJ final is the worst case situation here, especially in the dangerous state that the NHL is in right now. With the CBA crap, the Bertuzzi incident, the lack of a 50-goal scorer, etc. the NHL needs as much positive publicity as it can get right now. Of course the ideal situation is a final with Detroit, Colorado, Philly or Toronto in it. They have the bigger fanbases, and a consistent high-quality team reputation. I'm sorry, but teams like SJ and TB just haven't established that yet. Both are newer franchises that not long ago were consistently missing the playoffs.

It's not how I feel. I feel that the finals should be the true best of the best in the playoffs, but unfortunately it may not the ideal situation for the NHL. I don't like it, but I gotta be honest.

[Brian in Boston]

I've got news for you Braden: nationally (at least here in the United States), it wouldn't matter much which of the remaining eight teams ended up facing off in the Stanley Cup Finals this season. Television ratings for the series would be pretty dismal. In other words, regardless of who makes it to the Stanley Cup Finals, "who the HELL is going to watch it?"

As a die-hard sports fan who very much includes hockey viewing as part of my "fix", it pains me to say this, but the NHL is - comparatively - "off the radar" of most casual sports fans in the United States. The NHL isn't about to overtake the NFL - or even MLB - in the hearts and minds of U.S. sports fans anytime soon. We die-hards can kick and scream about it all we want, but that isn't going to change the status quo of hockey in the overall sports marketplace.

If anything, the sheer "novelty" of the so-called "non-traditional" hockey markets of San Jose and Tampa Bay facing off for the Stanley Cup might draw some casually curious new viewers to the series.

Bottom line: the NHL embraced a very regional profile (membership comprised primarily of Canadian and Northern Tier United States teams) and a more limited number of member franchises until later than either the NFL or MLB. As late as the 1965-66 season, the NHL was comprised of just six teams in Canada and the US Northeast. Compare that to the NFL (15) and AFL's (9) combined twenty-four franchises U.S. nationwide, or MLB's twenty teams (10 AL and 10 NL) U.S. nationwide. Even as late as 1972-73 the NHL was just hitting sixteen member teams. The NFL was at twenty-six clubs and MLB had hit twenty-four.

Given the number and geographic breadth of markets that the NFL and MLB were in, television was more interested in broadcasting their games because of the large and geographically varied audience that the telecasts would reach... at least compared to the NHL. This means that during the modern era of pro sports, both the NFL and MLB have enjoyed a longer stretch of more widespread fan development... which manifests itself in their more widespread popularity compared to hockey, particularly amongst casual sports fans. Frankly, the NHL will have a tremendously difficult time closing that "gap in interest". The NHL is still viewed by many as a sport with regional (as opposed to national) appeal. Unfortunately for the NHL, to embrace that label would be to commit business "suicide" with the corporate forces that play an increasingly large role in modern pro sports.

Factor in the state of salaries, the exchange rate issues, etc., and the NHL is in a very precarious situation.

Brian in Boston

[winters in buffalo]

Really guys, I'm shocked at some of the comments here. TV ratings? Ability to get wide exposure for the sport? Seriously now...

What happened to talent, teamwork and good old-fashioned working your ass off? The teams that accomplish those are the teams that deserve to be in the finals. Having the best team win is good for hockey.

[Brian in Boston]

wib...

I agree with you. The best team on the ice on any given day should be the one that skates away with the win. The best teams on the ice over the course of the NHL playoffs should face-off in the Stanley Cup Finals.

However, I'm a bit surprised that you're "shocked" over the course that the discussion has taken in this thread. From the very start, this thread has found so-called hockey "traditionalists" bemoaning the fact that a couple of "non-traditional" markets (San Jose and Tampa Bay) might end up facing each other for Lord Stanley's Cup. The far too typical argument has been bandied about that somehow the NHL's ills would be solved if some of the league's Southern US Tier cities were uprooted and transported directly to Canada or more Northerly US markets. In short, this thread really hasn't been about simply analyzing the relative on-ice merits of the teams in the NHL Playoffs. My posts have sought to address the issues that, in fact, have been raised.

Yes, it would be far more pleasant to focus solely on "talent, teamwork and good old-fashioned working your ass off". Sadly, getting the NHL's players to turn in that type of performance night in and night out isn't going to be the panacea that solves all of the league's problems. IMHO, the NHL's players are already arguably the hardest-working, down-to-earth players in any of the "Big Four" North American sports leagues. Still, if the reports from the league and its players' association are to be believed, the NHL is struggling to maintain its very existance. Television ratings, market size, corporate partnerships and increasing exposure for the sport amongst "casual" fans are all issues that are going to need to be addressed as the NHL fights for its place on the North American sports landscape... at least as a first-tier sports league. That's been the gist of this thread.

Perhaps we should start another thread to simply talk talent and effort on the part of the remaining Stanley Cup contenders. From its outset, this one has been focused on other issues.

That said, I'm pulling for a Tampa Bay versus San Jose Stanley Cup Final this year, as these two teams seem to be playing the best hockey right now.

Brian in Boston

[IronChefShark]

as far as interest in a potential TB-SJ finals, I have this to add

keep in mind the majority of times that hockey has been a high rated event in the United States, it has been Olympic hockey. Olympic hockey is widely considered by the average american fan as more entertaining to watch simply because there is more emphasis on skating and offense, with the majority of the defense coming from a goaltender playing out of his mind

now as someone who has watched the Sharks all season, and having seen the Bolts numerous time this playoff season, personally I feel that these two teams with thier emphasis on speed and skill, not to mention they both got goalies that are volcano hot right now.....display a lot of those attributes that attract so many casual american hockey viewers to olympic hockey

to put it in simpler terms The San Jose Sharks and Tampa Bay Lightning are extremely entertaining teams to watch!

remember, last year we essentialy had two suffocating, defensive minded teams in the finals. While most of us die hard hockey fans here on this forum could respect and appreciate that style of hockey, the fact of the matter is, the majority of the casual american fans want to be entertained.

so perhaps average joe american fan happens to be channel surfing for a baseball game or an NBA playoff game, and stumbles across a stanley cup playoff game involving either the sharks or lightning, or perhaps both against each other in the finals, watches about two or three minutes of the game and comes to realize....

whoa....these guys can fly! this is some entertaining stuff here!

will more americans watch a sharks-bolts finals just because they are two fast skating, energetic, entertaining teams? Probably not, but if there is any potential series that could gather more attention for hockey in the US, then a sharks-bolts finals would be it simply because of the style those two teams play

[CC97]

The games may be entertaining, but I can honestly say, I wouldn't be able to "get into" that final... probably only because the lack of tradition with the teams, I found it the same way in 1996... Not doubting an excellent series, hell that series would go 7 close games easily... and with the speed, wow... but i couldn't see myself wanting to rush home to catch the game, as i normally would for the finals.

But that's just me, i'd love to see San Jose in the finals tho.... Sharks/Red Wings west final? Go Sharks. San Jose/Philly Final? Go Sharks. San Jose/Tampa final... go Sharks.

At least their city seems to care about the team. (remembers watching the Cow Palace full of fans doin' that stupid shark chomp thing while watching game 6 from maple leaf gardens on the scoreboard)

So, here's hoping for that 1994 Western Conference Semi-Final Rematch, there's your exciting final.

[IronChefShark]

At least their city seems to care about the team. (remembers watching the Cow Palace full of fans doin' that stupid shark chomp thing while watching game 6 from maple leaf gardens on the scoreboard)

So, here's hoping for that 1994 Western Conference Semi-Final Rematch, there's your exciting final.

that was the San Jose Arena (now HP Pavilion), the year it opened actually

and two things to remember:

payback's a beee--yatch!

and.....^v^v^v^v^v^v^ CHOMP!

(nah, Ill forego the finger devil.......for now!)

[CC97]

At least their city seems to care about the team.  (remembers watching the Cow Palace full of fans doin' that stupidshark chomp thing while watching game 6 from maple leaf gardens on the scoreboard)

So, here's hoping for that 1994 Western Conference Semi-Final Rematch, there's your exciting final.

that was the San Jose Arena (now HP Pavilion), the year it opened actually

and two things to remember:

payback's a beee--yatch!

and.....^v^v^v^v^v^v^ CHOMP!

(nah, Ill forego the finger devil.......for now!)

I'll remember you when I'm writing the articles on Mapleleafs.com for that series

"LEAFS WIN GAME ONE, CREAMER GIVES I.C.S. FINGER"

[zer0dotcom]

after watching the Tampa/Montreal game tonight (with joy, then concern, now bitter dissapointment) I gotta say, Tampa has one hell of a team. I guess it's the fact that they've just come out of nowhere last season, and now this season winning the East, it seems so fast...but the way they just danced around MTl, these guys are good, and they scare me...I sure hope that people in The Tampa Area take note, because it would be a shame for all this talent to go unnoticed.

(ugh, I just wish that they had blue as the dominant colour instead of black)

[paynomind]

To the casual, novice potential hockey fan, they don't CARE where the teams are from. Unless form their home town, a teams origin doesn't matter to the TV viewer.

The finals, to do the most good in attracting viewers must be the best hockey possible.

You know, instead of determining who gets there vis this debate, all the teams should play each other, and those with the most success should play against each other untill we can find out who the two best teams are this year. Then THOSE TWO should play each other. How about that?

[winters in buffalo]

To the casual, novice potential hockey fan, they don't CARE where the teams are from. Unless form their home town, a teams origin doesn't matter to the TV viewer.

The finals, to do the most good in attracting viewers must be the best hockey possible.

You know, instead of determining who gets there vis this debate, all the teams should play each other, and those with the most success should play against each other untill we can find out who the two best teams are this year. Then THOSE TWO should play each other. How about that?

That's a fantastic idea. And of those two teams, whoever can win 4 games first should get a a big shiny cup!

[Fusebazell]

To the casual, novice potential hockey fan, they don't CARE where the teams are from. Unless form their home town, a teams origin doesn't matter to the TV viewer.

The finals, to do the most good in attracting viewers must be the best hockey possible.

You know, instead of determining who gets there vis this debate, all the teams should play each other, and those with the most success should play against each other untill we can find out who the two best teams are this year. Then THOSE TWO should play each other. How about that?

That's a fantastic idea. And of those two teams, whoever can win 4 games first should get a a big shiny cup!

Brillant

[Roger Clemente]

Brillant

I can't help it. Everytime someone says the "Brilliant" I immediately imagine them saying like "Stan" the old guy in the Tim Horton's commercial examining the blueberry muffin like it's the Hope Diamond.

"The texture. The cut. Brilliant! It's lke Heaven itself."

"It's a muffin Stan, not the hope diamond."

Hopefully you canucks know what I'm talking about.

--Roger "Time?" Clemente.

[KCScout76]

Betman's relocation of Candian Hockey Teams is a crime. However, I do like the fact that his "group" has put Hockey into the limelight. Brought in the best players around the world and transformed the game. Mr. Betman should not get all the credit, there are a group of people in the NHL front office who had a lot to do with that. All "his people" do the work, Betman is just the figure head with ideas. It's the front office that makes the NHL go - and yes they are his people, but look at the stride the NHL has made into the front page - it truely competes for space with the other big 3 sports (BB, FB & the MLB).

Not everything that Mr. Betman has been good for hockey. And as Hockey enthusiast I see your point. The demise of Pro Hockey is Canada is something serious. However, when the failure of some NHL teams in non-traditional cities arises, I am sure there will the the "push" to return some of these teams to Canada. I sure want Quebec, Manitoba, Winnipeg & others to get a NHL team. That would be 'good' for hockey.

Right now it's a Frickin' $$$ business, and as long as there are owners sinking money into these teams, they will "survive" until the next ICE AGE move. It goes in cycles. However, I have loved the exposure the NHL has gotten over the last 12 years. It was the step-child of the the Big 4 Sports for many years.

I say yeah to the San Jose & Tampa Bay's. Go Flames too! It has shown the committment the owners and coaches have had to get the Sharks, 'Bolts', & Flames to this point. It was just a few years ago when TB was the worst team in hockey - and after seeing them play New Jersey tough in the 2nd round last year, I said, they'll be a better team next year. This is not to say I am smart or I could run the league, it's been the commitment of owners, the NHL front office and coaches to get these teams to this point.

I sure love a good old Montreal - Detroit or Toronto-Chicago 'Cup Series'- but let those teams that have not have success enjoy their time in the limelight.

ie-I remember when the TB Bucs (in their light orange-goofy pirate logo) lost 27 games in a row, and a few years later under Coach McCay made it to the NFC title game in the 1970's. Won a SB couple of years ago - The Buffalo Bills were so average for many years. Only team to make it to the SB 4 years in a row.

So some credit has got to go to the organizations, per the directive of the league offices. So we don't have a lot 'traditional' teams in the semi's but we have pairity and new blood.

By the way, I had predicted, see my wallpaper on an earilier post, I had the Sharks and the Lighting in the Cup finals! However, with the way Toronto is playing, they could get in. Go Leafs! Sharks are still my favorite to win it all! What a great story that will be, they started the season out so poorly and came on strong (they play great D-could take them all the way!)

That's my insight to your question - KCScout76

[Notch Novelty]

I don't care where on the map SJ is but not hockey town. Guys who play hockey like myself will never think of SJ has a hockey town.

Columbus, Denver, Minnesota are 3 great hockey towns added by Bettman.

People in SJ support Roller Hockey and the NHL so they don't know what's going on.

I think HockeyGod's showed up today - Colorado wins!!!!!!!!!!!

I will never think of SJ/TB/Phoenix/Miami/Carolina as hockey town let alone a city that should be hoisting the cup.

Brian, you can write all the essays in the world, show all the facts in the world but it doesn't mean anything.

Here's a deal for a few cities

TB - moves to Winnipeg and gets Magic and (another) Nascar track

Phoenix - Coyotes move to Portland and get decent NFL team

SJ - moves to Seattle and heck give em NBA team

Miami - moves the panthers to Kansas City and gets Arena team

Carolina - moves to Quebec and gets another nascar track

Nashville - moves to Hartford and gets WNBA team