2011 Frozen Four

[rams80]

Wow, Colorado College destroys BC 8-4. Nice job CC. Yale sqeaks by in OT. Duluth and Michigan advance.

To that, I say that Michigan got very -ing lucky last night... A 10 minute review on a called no-goal that the refs were struggling to find evidence to overturn shouldn't decide a game, you know.

True, but at the same time your typical NCAA hockey ref is more incompetent than your worst AHL ref.

[Sport]

Miami lost!!!!!! Woooooooooohoooooooooooooooooo

Thanks, New Hampshire.

[RyanMcD29]

The one decent chance the ECAC has of actually winning a national title, Yale of course blows it by not even making it to the Frozen Four. Another year gone, another year whatever Ivy League/Northern New York school in the conference loses a game they shouldn't have. Well, at least it wasn't Cornell this time so I'm not too down in the dumps, right?

However, considering I rooted for them when I lived in New Hampshire as a very young lad, go UNH! Make a surprise run so you're not the University of No Hardware anymore

[Sport]

I don't think I like second round games being played before the first round has been completed. It's way too NBA.

[RyanMcD29]

I also don't like how there's a week in between the regional finals and the Frozen Four. They're better off having the regional finals the weekend of the Final Four so there's no long delay between them. I mean, it's not like they're avoiding basketball anyway, so why not?

[Sport]

Merrimack loses to Notre Dame in OT. Merrimack led 3-1 at one point.

[Sport]

North Dakota crushes Denver 6-1. These two played a pretty good game against one another in the WCHA tournament championship game. North Dakota has looked better than anyone so far in this tournament. I like them to win it all.

[Joshawaggie]

The Frozen Four is Michigan, Duluth, North Dakota and Notre Dame. A few suprises in there for sure.

[no97]

I also don't like how there's a week in between the regional finals and the Frozen Four. They're better off having the regional finals the weekend of the Final Four so there's no long delay between them. I mean, it's not like they're avoiding basketball anyway, so why not?

Disagree 1000%. Half of the teams didn't find out that they are in the tourney until Sunday. Now, you're asking that they're ready for games by Thursday, just three days later? And what about the fans? Now, this year isn't a big deal, with all teams within reasonable traveling distance, but let me give an example from 2 years ago:

Bemidji State qualified (as a Sunday winner) for a Frozen Four in Washington DC. They ended up selling out the school's allotment of 500 tickets, but I'd bet that if folks had to travel the 1300 miles on three days notice, maybe half that many would have shown up. And I'll guarantee that I wouldn't have made the trip.

Again, every school is close this year, but what if UNH had won instead of Notre Dame? Who wants to guess what a round-trip ticket from Manchester, NH to MSP costs on 3 days notice? How 'bout $800. Add the bye week and the airfare drops to $375....

[RyanMcD29]

I also don't like how there's a week in between the regional finals and the Frozen Four. They're better off having the regional finals the weekend of the Final Four so there's no long delay between them. I mean, it's not like they're avoiding basketball anyway, so why not?

Disagree 1000%. Half of the teams didn't find out that they are in the tourney until Sunday. Now, you're asking that they're ready for games by Thursday, just three days later? And what about the fans? Now, this year isn't a big deal, with all teams within reasonable traveling distance, but let me give an example from 2 years ago:

Bemidji State qualified (as a Sunday winner) for a Frozen Four in Washington DC. They ended up selling out the school's allotment of 500 tickets, but I'd bet that if folks had to travel the 1300 miles on three days notice, maybe half that many would have shown up. And I'll guarantee that I wouldn't have made the trip.

Again, every school is close this year, but what if UNH had won instead of Notre Dame? Who wants to guess what a round-trip ticket from Manchester, NH to MSP costs on 3 days notice? How 'bout $800. Add the bye week and the airfare drops to $375....

They're playing just 3 days after finding out their in the tournament in the first place with Selection Sunday to the regional finals anyway, that's not the point. I'm concerned about the period between the regionals and the Frozen Four.

I understand all that with costs, but...

-Basketball does it, on a larger scale plus 2-3 days notice for eight schools, not to mention it's chock full of mid-majors that don't have the reach of midwestern public schools or northeastern private schools that hockey does

-Women's Basketball does it too

-Women's hockey does it, for hockey comparison sakes

-Baseball does it

-Lacrosse does it

-Softball does it

-Men's and Women's soccer do it

-FCS Football does it except this year they made the championship game 3 weeks later to have it the same weekend as the BCS. Traditionally that was only one week between rounds

-D-2 and D-3 Football do it

So while yes, I see where you're going for the fans being able to go to games, but every other NCAA sport doesn't have a week off between the regional final and the semifinals. Not to mention, wouldn't it be more expensive to try and get over to where these regional rounds are, which there's no way of knowing which bracket your in rather than the Frozen Four having a set location, as well as only a 4-5 day notice anyway? What you could do is have Selection Sunday where it is, then the games a week and a half later during Final Four weekend, then the Frozen Four weekend the next. It's too much of a gap between games and it ruins the flow of the tournament quite a bit.

[YessSir32]

A little late here, but I say Michigan beats Notre Dame in final.

[no97]

I also don't like how there's a week in between the regional finals and the Frozen Four. They're better off having the regional finals the weekend of the Final Four so there's no long delay between them. I mean, it's not like they're avoiding basketball anyway, so why not?

Disagree 1000%. Half of the teams didn't find out that they are in the tourney until Sunday. Now, you're asking that they're ready for games by Thursday, just three days later? And what about the fans? Now, this year isn't a big deal, with all teams within reasonable traveling distance, but let me give an example from 2 years ago:

Bemidji State qualified (as a Sunday winner) for a Frozen Four in Washington DC. They ended up selling out the school's allotment of 500 tickets, but I'd bet that if folks had to travel the 1300 miles on three days notice, maybe half that many would have shown up. And I'll guarantee that I wouldn't have made the trip.

Again, every school is close this year, but what if UNH had won instead of Notre Dame? Who wants to guess what a round-trip ticket from Manchester, NH to MSP costs on 3 days notice? How 'bout $800. Add the bye week and the airfare drops to $375....

They're playing just 3 days after finding out their in the tournament in the first place with Selection Sunday to the regional finals anyway, that's not the point. I'm concerned about the period between the regionals and the Frozen Four.

I understand all that with costs, but...

-Basketball does it, on a larger scale plus 2-3 days notice for eight schools, not to mention it's chock full of mid-majors that don't have the reach of midwestern public schools or northeastern private schools that hockey does

-Women's Basketball does it too

-Women's hockey does it, for hockey comparison sakes

-Baseball does it

-Lacrosse does it

-Softball does it

-Men's and Women's soccer do it

-FCS Football does it except this year they made the championship game 3 weeks later to have it the same weekend as the BCS. Traditionally that was only one week between rounds

-D-2 and D-3 Football do it

So while yes, I see where you're going for the fans being able to go to games, but every other NCAA sport doesn't have a week off between the regional final and the semifinals. Not to mention, wouldn't it be more expensive to try and get over to where these regional rounds are, which there's no way of knowing which bracket your in rather than the Frozen Four having a set location, as well as only a 4-5 day notice anyway? What you could do is have Selection Sunday where it is, then the games a week and a half later during Final Four weekend, then the Frozen Four weekend the next. It's too much of a gap between games and it ruins the flow of the tournament quite a bit.

To respond to your points:

-Regional attendance sucks. Why do you think that is? Short notice for travel.

-Why do I care about what other sports do?

-Wait, what? You're seriously telling me that there are more college hockey schools that have "name recognition" than there are college basketball schools? Look at this list of college hockey schools really hard:

http://www.uscho.com/rankings/rpi/d-i-men/

I'll give you maybe a dozen of those schools (and those are the Big 10 and Ivy League schools) are "well known" names. In college basketball, because of March Madness brackets, folks know dozens upon dozens of schools. Teams they have no reason to know of (Butler? Gonzaga)...

Here's the other thing - the regionals are a work in progress. The NCAA hasn't assigned sites for regionals after next year, and it is well known that they are exploring other options to increase attendance. What works and works well for college hockey? The Frozen Four. For the last decade, it has sold out well in advance no matter where it's played. The coaches like the bye week, fans like the bye week, and the NCAA likes the bye week. Plus it gets it away from the basketball tourneys.

[RyanMcD29]

I also don't like how there's a week in between the regional finals and the Frozen Four. They're better off having the regional finals the weekend of the Final Four so there's no long delay between them. I mean, it's not like they're avoiding basketball anyway, so why not?

Disagree 1000%. Half of the teams didn't find out that they are in the tourney until Sunday. Now, you're asking that they're ready for games by Thursday, just three days later? And what about the fans? Now, this year isn't a big deal, with all teams within reasonable traveling distance, but let me give an example from 2 years ago:

Bemidji State qualified (as a Sunday winner) for a Frozen Four in Washington DC. They ended up selling out the school's allotment of 500 tickets, but I'd bet that if folks had to travel the 1300 miles on three days notice, maybe half that many would have shown up. And I'll guarantee that I wouldn't have made the trip.

Again, every school is close this year, but what if UNH had won instead of Notre Dame? Who wants to guess what a round-trip ticket from Manchester, NH to MSP costs on 3 days notice? How 'bout $800. Add the bye week and the airfare drops to $375....

They're playing just 3 days after finding out their in the tournament in the first place with Selection Sunday to the regional finals anyway, that's not the point. I'm concerned about the period between the regionals and the Frozen Four.

I understand all that with costs, but...

-Basketball does it, on a larger scale plus 2-3 days notice for eight schools, not to mention it's chock full of mid-majors that don't have the reach of midwestern public schools or northeastern private schools that hockey does

-Women's Basketball does it too

-Women's hockey does it, for hockey comparison sakes

-Baseball does it

-Lacrosse does it

-Softball does it

-Men's and Women's soccer do it

-FCS Football does it except this year they made the championship game 3 weeks later to have it the same weekend as the BCS. Traditionally that was only one week between rounds

-D-2 and D-3 Football do it

So while yes, I see where you're going for the fans being able to go to games, but every other NCAA sport doesn't have a week off between the regional final and the semifinals. Not to mention, wouldn't it be more expensive to try and get over to where these regional rounds are, which there's no way of knowing which bracket your in rather than the Frozen Four having a set location, as well as only a 4-5 day notice anyway? What you could do is have Selection Sunday where it is, then the games a week and a half later during Final Four weekend, then the Frozen Four weekend the next. It's too much of a gap between games and it ruins the flow of the tournament quite a bit.

To respond to your points:

-Regional attendance sucks. Why do you think that is? Short notice for travel.

-Why do I care about what other sports do?

-Wait, what? You're seriously telling me that there are more college hockey schools that have "name recognition" than there are college basketball schools? Look at this list of college hockey schools really hard:

http://www.uscho.com/rankings/rpi/d-i-men/

I'll give you maybe a dozen of those schools (and those are the Big 10 and Ivy League schools) are "well known" names. In college basketball, because of March Madness brackets, folks know dozens upon dozens of schools. Teams they have no reason to know of (Butler? Gonzaga)...

Here's the other thing - the regionals are a work in progress. The NCAA hasn't assigned sites for regionals after next year, and it is well known that they are exploring other options to increase attendance. What works and works well for college hockey? The Frozen Four. For the last decade, it has sold out well in advance no matter where it's played. The coaches like the bye week, fans like the bye week, and the NCAA likes the bye week. Plus it gets it away from the basketball tourneys.

Fair enough. My point with basketball was that you've got a ton of mid majors who have to plan out on short notice, and if I had a penny for every "I've never even heard of VCU" I've heard this week, I'd be rich. On the flip side, the teams in the Frozen Four usually have a big following in the upper midwest and Big Ten country, or if they're in the northeast tend to be the Boston area or part of the Ivy League, once again having big alumni bases or alumni bases in quite a lot of areas.

And as I said with regionals, give it a week after selection Sunday, you'll get more people showing up. The Frozen Four, I would assume, people would buy in advance and then sell it to other fans if their team gets knocked out, plus it's on sale a year in advance, so there's a little bit more leeway by having a shorter break between them

[no97]

Fair enough. My point with basketball was that you've got a ton of mid majors who have to plan out on short notice, and if I had a penny for every "I've never even heard of VCU" I've heard this week, I'd be rich. On the flip side, the teams in the Frozen Four usually have a big following in the upper midwest and Big Ten country, or if they're in the northeast tend to be the Boston area or part of the Ivy League, once again having big alumni bases or alumni bases in quite a lot of areas.

Fine (VCU), but for every Rams, there's 2-3 UNC or Duke or Kansas. Honestly - look at the NCAA basketball bracket and tell me that the average sports fan doesn't recognize at least 75% of those schools, if for no other reason than they see them once a year for March Madness.

Now look at the NCAA hockey bracket. AT MOST, I've got 6 of 16 that are even remotely nationally known, and you can't at all tell me that North Dakota's alumni base (a school of 14,000 students) can compare to VCU (32,000 students) let alone Kentucky or UConn. And that's forgetting that Minnesota-Duluth is in the Frozen Four too.

The Frozen Four, I would assume, people would buy in advance and then sell it to other fans if their team gets knocked out, plus it's on sale a year in advance, so there's a little bit more leeway by having a shorter break between them

And again, you missed my point that THIS YEAR it isn't a problem. Notre Dame, Michigan, North Dakota and Minn-Duluth can all have their fans drive very easily to St. Paul on three days notice. If this were two years ago (Washington, DC) or next year (Tampa, FL), how many would go on short notice? And that's good for the sport how? This isn't basketball, where it's on network TV in prime-time and millions of people watch across the country. You already admit that pockets of the country (midwest and northeast) are the primary areas of interest - why piss those fan bases off by making it difficult for them to attend when their team makes the tourney? I mean, I'd love to go every year, but will only be going since it's 4 hours from me this time around. If Bemidji State were to make it again, I'd hate to not be able to make it because I couldn't plan my trip in 3 days.

Plus, you ignored my other (bigger, IMHO) point. The coaches love the bye week. Every coach I've ever talked to (I host a weekly radio show on BSU hockey and talk to Tom Serratore and BSU's opponents regularly) like it the way it is. I mentioned the logistics for fans - now think of everything that goes on for the teams. The biggest games of the season, and for most teams, they've not faced their FF opponents all year. his way, they get a good scouting report, plus game film on the team they'll be playing. They have a chance to deal with the distractions from media and what-not. Distractions from people who want tickets. Put all that into 3 days and it's a bit overwhelming.

[rams80]

How's this for an idea?

STOP PLAYING THE NCAA TOURNAMENT FINALS AND REGIONALS HUNDREDS, IF NOT THOUSANDS OF MILES AWAY FROM ANY POSSIBLE PARTICIPANT.

And while you're at it, return the regionals to campus sites. At least somebody's going to be interested in showing up then, and you actually provide better rewards for the teams that earned 1 seeds. Which is important since hockey is too much of a crap shoot for a 1 and done tournament.

[no97]

How's this for an idea?

STOP PLAYING THE NCAA TOURNAMENT FINALS AND REGIONALS HUNDREDS, IF NOT THOUSANDS OF MILES AWAY FROM ANY POSSIBLE PARTICIPANT.

And while you're at it, return the regionals to campus sites. At least somebody's going to be interested in showing up then, and you actually provide better rewards for the teams that earned 1 seeds. Which is important since hockey is too much of a crap shoot for a 1 and done tournament.

Since we're mostly talking about the Frozen 4, I'm going to ignore your comment about the regionals for a moment.

Consider this - what if the regionals had turned out differently? Say, what if the #1 seeds from the East (Yale and BC) had both advanced, and the upsets had been to western teams (say, RPI and Merrimack or New Hampshire advancing)? Then you'd have the same problem, THIS year, despite being in arguably the best possible western location (St. Paul). Sure, Tampa and Washington are guaranteed to have no teams within a reasonable drive (although, DC was by all accounts one of the most successful FF's ever), but there's no way to guarantee that fans will be close. This year is a perfect set-up (travel-wise), but what if the FF was in Boston this go 'round (with the same 4 western participants)? Or what if those team I mentioned had made it (#1 seed Yale, #1 seed BC, #2 seed Merrimack and #4 seed RPI) to the Twin Cities?

[rams80]

You still only have to plan for one big trip instead of 2 (if you go to campus sites) and given the number of NCAA hockey teams, playing out in Minnesota shouldn't seem unreasonable. Yeah, it'd be a bit of strain on the travel budget if you also had another preselected neutered site regional to attend as well, but hey, wasn't one or two of the regionals in reasonable driving distance for said Eastern teams?

[no97]

How's this for an idea?

STOP PLAYING THE NCAA TOURNAMENT FINALS AND REGIONALS HUNDREDS, IF NOT THOUSANDS OF MILES AWAY FROM ANY POSSIBLE PARTICIPANT.

And while you're at it, return the regionals to campus sites. At least somebody's going to be interested in showing up then, and you actually provide better rewards for the teams that earned 1 seeds. Which is important since hockey is too much of a crap shoot for a 1 and done tournament.

Since we're mostly talking about the Frozen 4, I'm going to ignore your comment about the regionals for a moment.

Consider this - what if the regionals had turned out differently? Say, what if the #1 seeds from the East (Yale and BC) had both advanced, and the upsets had been to western teams (say, RPI and Merrimack or New Hampshire advancing)? Then you'd have the same problem, THIS year, despite being in arguably the best possbile location (St. Paul). Sure, Tampa and Washington are guaranteed to have no teams within a reasonable drive (although, DC was by all accounts one of the most successful FF's ever), but there's no way to guarantee that fans will be close. This year is a perfect set-up (travel-wise), but what if the FF was in Boston this go 'round? Or what if those team I mentioned had made it (#1 seed Yale, #1 seed BC, #2 seed Merrimack and #4 seed RPI) to the Twin Cities?

edit - And if you don't know what makes a good FF city, it isn't location, really. It's being a city that people WANT to travel to. DC worked because 90% of people that go show up on Wednesday, and leave on Sunday. There is only so much time spent at the rink, so there has to be something else to do in town. People have most of the day Thursday (with the games not starting until 5 EDT), all day Friday and most of the day Saturday (with the championship game starting at 7 EDT). DC is one of the best tourist cities in the country anyway, and offered tons to do with the down-time. With, essentially 2 full days of non-hockey in a three day tourney, people are looking for options other than sitting in their hotel room.

[rams80]

I'm pretty sure "those" fans planned their trips long before any game was actually played in the tournament so methinks claiming "there's not enough time" to plan the trip is a little...off, shall we say.

Rotate it between some combination of Buffalo, Denver, St. Paul, Chicago, Milwaukee, New York, Boston, Detroit, Indy, Cleveland, and Columbus. Maybe Washington, Philadelphia, and Pittsburgh. Plenty of variety, and yet close enough for travel.

[no97]

I'm pretty sure "those" fans planned their trips long before any game was actually played in the tournament so methinks claiming "there's not enough time" to plan the trip is a little...off, shall we say.

Holy crap - do you people even understand how the Frozen Four works? I've been professional media for college hockey for ~ 15 years now. Trust me, not everyone that's going to be in St. Paul next weekend planned on being there a year ago when tickets went on sale...

To recap - there is a base of 10,000-12,000 "season" ticket holders. There is a priority points system based on how many times folks have attended the FF, and that determines how or where ticket locations are distributed. There are another ~ 5,000 tickets for corporate sponsors, and the host institution (in the case of next weekend, the University of Minnesota). Finally, each participating school in the FF gets 500 tickets (which they received Monday or Tuesday) to sell in their designated section. Those 2000 fans who buy their tickets between now and next Thursday HAD NO PLANS to attend the FF until "their" team made it. Now, you may say that is a small portion of total attendees, but it is a significant group and adds greatly to atmosphere. Don't tell me that no one is planning their FF trip on short notice - especially when I did so myself two years ago...

And that's not even accounting for any "season" ticket-holders who decide to sell their tickets for a profit (have you checked prices on StubHub lately?). People buying those tickets who are UMD, UND, UMich or Notre Dame fans certainly didn't plan on going "long before" their team qualified...