Georgia State Flag Concept

[illwauk]

As I pointed out in another thread, my problem with people displaying the confederate flag isn't because I people who do so are necessarily racist (although the two tend to go hand-in-hand... often), it's because they're displaying a mentality that smacks of privilege and arrogance. What the hell makes you so great that you get to decide that only the things the flag means to you are what really matter and that implications of slavery that happened under the regime the Confederate soldiers were fighting for, as well as the terrorism committed by groups like the KKK and politicized racism of people like George Wallace simply "don't count" and those who see otherwise should just "get over it"?

To put this another way, I am a card-carrying member of the Menominee Tribe of Wisconsin, one of the many peoples who traditionally recognized the swastika as a symbol of good luck. But if I got a swastika tattoo and then said to Jewish people " off... it's part of my heritage and means something different to me!" folks would (correctly) think I was a naive, insensitive dick. Fly the rebel flag if you must, just be prepared to deal with the backlash coming from outside of your narrow world.

[sc49erfan15]

EDIT: Here's something I came up with while dicking around. Can't really say I care for it, but this is what happens when folks can't learn to share their toys.

(For those who don't know, red, black and green are the traditional Pan-African colors which is why they appear on the flags of so many African nations.)

There's actually a group at the Market in Charleston, South Carolina who sells memorabilia with almost that exact same flag - for the exact same reason, just to be ironic. I'll see if I can dig up anything about them.

[edit] They're called NuSouth Apparel, and their website is apparently down, but some of their apparel can be seen here.

[illwauk]

I think I know who you're talking about and may have linked to an article about them on the first page.

[sc49erfan15]

I think I know who you're talking about and may have linked to an article about them on the first page.

Aaaand that's what I get for being trigger-happy and only skimming through the rest of the replies to see if anyone brought it up!

[Gothamite]

Stop right there, please...

No offense, Illwauk, but every damn thing down here has a peach on it. I'm begging...not the flag. Or anything else.

They just had a vote on eight finalists for the new license plate. Peaches, peach, peaches, peaches, peaches, peaches, peach, and peach. And three "In God We Trust"s for good measure. So much for originality or separation of church and state, hey? And I like how #1 has peaches at the top, the 'o' in Georgia is a peach, and then they put "The Peach State" in the lower left corner. Wow, ya think?

Well unfortunately peanuts kill a lot of people now and nobody likes Carter, so I believe Georgia is pretty much tapped out for alternative state symbols.

There's a fine line between a state symbol and a superficial caricature. People within a state often see the latter when they ought to embrace the former.

[BLUELANDbeliever]

As I pointed out in another thread, my problem with people displaying the confederate flag isn't because I people who do so are necessarily racist (although the two tend to go hand-in-hand... often), it's because they're displaying a mentality that smacks of privilege and arrogance. What the hell makes you so great that you get to decide that only the things the flag means to you are what really matter and that implications of slavery that happened under the regime the Confederate soldiers were fighting for, as well as the terrorism committed by groups like the KKK and politicized racism of people like George Wallace simply "don't count" and those who see otherwise should just "get over it"?

To put this another way, I am a card-carrying member of the Menominee Tribe of Wisconsin, one of the many peoples who traditionally recognized the swastika as a symbol of good luck. But if I got a swastika tattoo and then said to Jewish people " off... it's part of my heritage and means something different to me!" folks would (correctly) think I was a naive, insensitive dick. Fly the rebel flag if you must, just be prepared to deal with the backlash coming from outside of your narrow world.

It's no different than the mindset plenty of northerners have about southerners. I had a family from Rhode Island move in next door and they thought that southerners were all nothing but black hating retards who chew tobacco, and march with the KKK. It's called stereotyping folks and its wrong.

[illwauk]

Not sure I understand your point with that, every region gets stereotyped. The issue here is some folks' conscious choice to display a symbol that has come to be associated with oppression, terrorism and sociopolitical disenfranchisement under the premise that it means something different to them, so everyone else should just get over it.

[Lights Out]

And proudly displaying the Confederate flag won't exactly help decrease Southern stereotypes.

[oddball]

Curious question, but if slavery came from Europe why doesn't anyone consider the English or French flag as racist? And why doesn't anyone consider the Stars & Stripes to be racist since this country welcomed slavery until the end of the Civil War?

As far as the concept, I hate to say this, but the peach actually looks like a butt!

[illwauk]

Curious question, but if slavery came from Europe why doesn't anyone consider the English or French flag as racist?

Probably because those are countries that still exist and have long since moved on from that point in their history. There was never a time when the CSA didn't have slavery and, in fact, had it in their constitution that no state could enact a law that abolished the practice (which throws a pretty mean dagger into the whole "but the war was about states rights!!!" argument).

And why doesn't anyone consider the Stars & Stripes to be racist since this country welcomed slavery until the end of the Civil War?

Actually, some do. But again, the US has moved on from that point in its history, the Confederacy never did.

[Gothamite]

Exactly. Let's not forget that the South broke away from the rest of the United States because the North had moved away from slavery, while the South desperately held on to it.

The Confederate flag represents a nation founded on the specific belief that black folks were inferior and needed to be enslaved. Anyone who flies it now is either endorsing that view, ignorant of the facts or kidding themselves.

[sc49erfan15]

Exactly. Let's not forget that the South broke away from the rest of the United States because the North had moved away from slavery, while the South desperately held on to it.

The Confederate flag represents a nation founded on the specific belief that black folks were inferior and needed to be enslaved. Anyone who flies it now is either endorsing that view, ignorant of the facts or kidding themselves.

Correct. I'm not trying to make any pro-slavery argument, but you're completely leaving out why the North had moved away from slavery.

[Coast2CoastAM2006]

The Trail of Tears says hi.

carry on.

[IceCap]

It's a good design, but it just strikes me as a bit cliched. A peach for Georgia and all.

[Gothamite]

Exactly. Let's not forget that the South broke away from the rest of the United States because the North had moved away from slavery, while the South desperately held on to it.

The Confederate flag represents a nation founded on the specific belief that black folks were inferior and needed to be enslaved. Anyone who flies it now is either endorsing that view, ignorant of the facts or kidding themselves.

Correct. I'm not trying to make any pro-slavery argument, but you're completely leaving out why the North had moved away from slavery.

The North's economy wasn't based on slave labor. Abolition was easier for them.

But does that really matter? Doesn't change the horrors suffered under slavery, doesn't make the CSA any less virulently racist, and it doesn't change the fact that the Confederate flag is an emblem of racism.

[CGL77]

I never understood people crying over the history of certain flags when speaking about them aesthetically. A lot of countries or nations (the majority) have had terrible moments in their history. I, living in Canada, see the Canadian flag with regularity. The Canadian nation has done cruel things in it's past. I see the Union Jack sometimes. The Brits have done horrible things in their past. I also see the Iroquois flag flying every now and then. The Iroquois completely wiped out the Erie tribe. Many countries have the crescent moon on their flags; the symbol of Islam. Islam has done (and is currently doing) horrible things. Many more have the Christian cross or crosses of Christian saints - Christianity has dong horrible things in the past. Japan has a popular flag. They also have some horrible moments in their history. And on and on...

I think, on a site like this, we'd be better off separating the design of the flag from the flag's political history.

Curious question, but if slavery came from Europe why doesn't anyone consider the English or French flag as racist? And why doesn't anyone consider the Stars & Stripes to be racist since this country welcomed slavery until the end of the Civil War?

As far as the concept, I hate to say this, but the peach actually looks like a butt!

Well, I certainly hope you don't believe that slavery came from Europe. rofl. But, yes, some people consider St. George's cross to be racist. They're idiots mind you, but they do exist.

[IceCap]

I never understood people crying over the history of certain flags when speaking about them aesthetically. A lot of countries or nations (the majority) have had terrible moments in their history. I, living in Canada, see the Canadian flag with regularity. The Canadian nation has done cruel things in it's past. I see the Union Jack sometimes. The Brits have done horrible things in their past. I also see the Iroquois flag flying every now and then. The Iroquois completely wiped out the Erie tribe. Many countries have the crescent moon on their flags; the symbol of Islam. Islam has done (and is currently doing) horrible things. Many more have the Christian cross or crosses of Christian saints - Christianity has dong horrible things in the past. Japan has a popular flag. They also have some horrible moments in their history. And on and on...

I think, on a site like this, we'd be better off separating the design of the flag from the flag's political history.

This point has been addressed. The British Empire did colonize the world, and unjustly displaced millions of indigenous peoples in the name of colonialism. The British Empire, however, also helped spread modernity, infrastructure, and English common law too. Further, the British nation has moved on from its colonial past and is now a progressive, western nation with a high standard of living and a high amount of political freedom. When a nation outgrows and makes amends for its mistakes, when it has more to its history then just mistakes, the symbols associated with that nation aren't seen as offensive by the majority of people.

The CSA and Nazi Germany, however, have no good associated with them. The CSA was founded specifically to keep the institution of slavery alive, and its entire history involved a war fought to preserve that unjust institution. The CSA only existed from 1861-1865, and it never moved beyond being a state that celebrated the enslavement of African Americans. Likewise Nazi Germany's entire history is dominated by the dismantling of democracy, starting one of the most devastating wars in human history, and the attempted genocide of an entire people.

These states never moved beyond the negatives, which is why the symbols associated with them have such a negative connotation.

If you're trying to implore me to look past World War II and the Holocaust and examine the Swastika flag based on its aesthetic merits alone then you're wasting your damn time.

[HedleyLamarr]

My ass is moving to Winnipeg if that flag ever became the official flag of Georgia....

[Mings]

I saw a confederate flag flying on the train to Eberswalde from Berlin last year. I have no clue why in the hell it would be there.

Also Hedley, nice. Would you salute it if it were a silhouette of you CNN center hottie/spank bank superstar?

[Gothamite]

I never understood people crying over the history of certain flags when speaking about them aesthetically.

well, we weren't exactly discussing the aesthetics of the Confederate flag on its own, but rather recolored in the Pan-African colors.

In that context, history matters. As I said at the time, it's a little like recoloring the swastika in Israeli blue and white.