Lights Out Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 About range factor: it's a stat that shows the average number of plays made by a given player in a nine-inning game. So, both Ruth and Clemente were good for around 2 plays every nine innings. However, the number for what's considered a good range factor vary based on position. Considering that both Ruth and Clemente played in right field, and the highest-ever one-season range factor for an RF was Babe Herman's 2.81 in 1933, I'd say that both Ruth and Clemente had excellent range for their positions. POTD: 2/4/12 3/4/12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infrared41 Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 About range factor: it's a stat that shows the average number of plays made by a given player in a nine-inning game. So, both Ruth and Clemente were good for around 2 plays every nine innings. However, the number for what's considered a good range factor vary based on position. Considering that both Ruth and Clemente played in right field, and the highest-ever one-season range factor for an RF was Babe Herman's 2.81 in 1933, I'd say that both Ruth and Clemente had excellent range for their positions.So it's safe to say that knnhrvy16 was a little off the mark when he hinted that Ruth's defense was questionable? @knnhrvy16: I promise I'm not trying to make you change your mind or argue with you. I'm simply trying to show you that there was more to the Babe than beer, hot dogs, and home runs. It's kind of ironic that Babe's legend has somehow diminished just how great an all-around ballplayer he actually was. Other than stolen bases, as an offensive player, Babe Ruth really wasn't all that different from Ty Cobb. Well, except that Ruth hit a lot more home runs to go with his high batting average. That said, much like Ruth, Cobb's reputation makes it easy to forget how great he really was. This is also another great example of how eras really have to play a role in this discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lights Out Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 About range factor: it's a stat that shows the average number of plays made by a given player in a nine-inning game. So, both Ruth and Clemente were good for around 2 plays every nine innings. However, the number for what's considered a good range factor vary based on position. Considering that both Ruth and Clemente played in right field, and the highest-ever one-season range factor for an RF was Babe Herman's 2.81 in 1933, I'd say that both Ruth and Clemente had excellent range for their positions.So it's safe to say that knnhrvy16 was a little off the mark when he hinted that Ruth's defense was questionable?Well, range is only one component of defense. Being able to track down the ball is meaningless if you make a lot of errors when you get there. Being able to cover ground and not make a lot of mistakes can be canceled by a weak arm.As far as errors are concerned, Ruth's fielding percentage was very high, with a career .968 Fld%. Clemente's was even better: .972 Fld% in his career. However, Clemente played less seasons than Ruth - 18 to Ruth's 22. However, in his first 18 seasons, Ruth's Fld% matched his career average - .968. It's safe to say that Clemente was slightly better at tracking down the ball AND keeping it.Comparing arm strength isn't as easy, because rARM - Outfield Runs Arm Saved - only started being tracked in 2002. However, if we're just judging based on range and fielding percentage, both players were very solid on defense but I'd say Clemente was slightly better.All of this is a rather longwinded way of saying that Ruth's defense wasn't even close to questionable for his position, but Clemente's was better - I hope you could follow all that! POTD: 2/4/12 3/4/12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infrared41 Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 All of this is a rather longwinded way of saying that Ruth's defense wasn't even close to questionable for his position, but Clemente's was better - I hope you could follow all that! Which is all that I was trying to show. My point was simply that if Ruth's defensive numbers weren't significantly different than Clemente's, it would be hard to call Ruth a liability on defense. Anyway, thanks for translating for me. I had no idea what I was looking at but I knew that Ruth's and Clemente's numbers looked similar. (For all I knew, I might have been showing what lousy defenders they were.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knnhrvy16 Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 Thanks for the Ruth stats, guys. Definetely interesting, they're the kind of statistics many of us never see, so it is kind of eye-opening! I had assumed (yes, I made an @$$ out of u and me! ) he must not have been a great outfielder, given you never hear about his defense...well...ever. I don't want to be that stubborn "that doesn't change anything" guy, but I still think Cobb was the better player. If it means anything though, my thoughts on Ruth's defense have certainly changed! The opinions I express are mine, and mine only. If I am to express them, it is not to say you or anyone else is wrong, and certainly not to say that I am right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lights Out Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 I had assumed (yes, I made an @$$ out of u and me! ) he must not have been a great outfielder, given you never hear about his defense...well...ever. That's probably because the media is obsessed with offense and pitching, while defense is largely ignored - hence why Derek Jeter continues to get Gold Gloves despite being by far the worst fielder in baseball. POTD: 2/4/12 3/4/12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infrared41 Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 Thanks for the Ruth stats, guys. Definetely interesting, they're the kind of statistics many of us never see, so it is kind of eye-opening! I had assumed (yes, I made an @$$ out of u and me! ) he must not have been a great outfielder, given you never hear about his defense...well...ever. I don't want to be that stubborn "that doesn't change anything" guy, but I still think Cobb was the better player. If it means anything though, my thoughts on Ruth's defense have certainly changed! That's all I was going for. I just wanted you to see Babe Ruth the ballplayer instead of Babe Ruth the legend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njmeadowlanders Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 Isn't the answer David Eckstein?MLB of course got this taken down off youtube but per Awful Announcing:David Eckstein Is One Of The Greatest Players To Ever Play The Game Of Baseball Or so says Padres' announcer, Mark Grant. During last night's Giants-Padres game, David Eckstein lost a flyball in the lights at second base. Instead of pleading for help, the crafty guy pretended he was going to catch the ball, thus letting it drop and fooling the runner at first. A smart play indeed, but Grant decided to take hyperbole to another level, calling him one of the "best players to ever play the game of Baseball!".... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oddball Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 I'm sorry but neither Babe Ruth or Ty Cobb changed the game the way Jackie Robinson changed the game. Jackie Robinson brought in a whole new group of talented players that would have never had the chance to play. I'm sorry but if you look at rosters today, Jackie Robinson has had more of an impact on the game than either Babe Ruth or Ty Cobb had. If it wasn't for Jackie Robinson we would never have been able to watch great players such as Lou Brock, Roberto Clemente, Bob Gibson, Pedro Martinez, Ken Griffey, Jr., or Henry Aaron. Think about it. Cobb stole bases, Ruth hit the ball, and Robinson allowed everyone to play the game and was one of the greatest players arguably. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dexter Morgan Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 I'm sorry but neither Babe Ruth or Ty Cobb changed the game the way Jackie Robinson changed the game. Jackie Robinson brought in a whole new group of talented players that would have never had the chance to play. I'm sorry but if you look at rosters today, Jackie Robinson has had more of an impact on the game than either Babe Ruth or Ty Cobb had. If it wasn't for Jackie Robinson we would never have been able to watch great players such as Lou Brock, Roberto Clemente, Bob Gibson, Pedro Martinez, Ken Griffey, Jr., or Henry Aaron. Think about it. Cobb stole bases, Ruth hit the ball, and Robinson allowed everyone to play the game and was one of the greatest players arguably.Robinson didn't allow everyone to play the game, technically neither did Branch Rickey, because I don't think their was an actual rule banning it, but Rickey did change the game by signing Robinson. Robinson gets credit for the way he handled himself despite the pure racism thrown his way in the early years, he paved the way for the players you named, but if it wasn't for Branch Rickey, he doesn't get that opportunity. Baseball wise, Robinson doesn't hold a light to some of the players named, especially Ruth and Cobb. He's not in the discussion for Greatest Baseball Player of All-Time. In my book at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njmeadowlanders Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 Jackie Robinson was a great baseball player. He's not in the same stratosphere as some of the greatest of all time though.What he did for the game shouldn't have any bearing on his ability as a player. His breaking the color barrier is by far the most important event in the history of the game, and was a huge event in the history of the United States. I'm sure he could've been ever better if he didn't have to deal with everything he had to deal with, but we'll never know the answer to that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evanmaldonado Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 You have the typical players you'd expect to see in this discussion (Ruth, Williams, Cobb, etc), but I'm surprised about others not being mentioned. Ricky Henderson is easily one of the greats. 3,000 hits, 1,400 steals, 2,300 runs. He made almost every play one to watch, and was intimidating in his own right (on the basepaths). Ken Griffey Jr. - 630 home runs. He had the speed, the range, the power, everything you could ever want in a baseball player. We know about the injuries, but even so he still put up great numbers. Barry Bonds - I don't care whether or not he took steroids. I don't care that he was a massive jerk. I dont care that he never won a World Series. He struck fear into every pitcher he ever faced. He's the home run leader, steroids or no steroids. That didn't help him see the ball, and it sure didnt help him hit it. He was a great all around player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thespleenenator Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 Satchel Paige dominated the Negro Leagues, which I argue was probably more talented than the majors. If him and Josh Gibson had played in the MLB, it would be a two horse race (with Cobb and Cap Anson close behind). Considering Satchel struck out Josh Gibson while supposedly telling him each pitch that he was going to throw, I'll go with Paige. Why you make fun of me? I make concept for Auburn champions and you make fun of me. I cry tears.Chopping off the dicks of Filipino boys and embracing causes that promote bigotry =/= strong moral character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infrared41 Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 I'm sorry but neither Babe Ruth or Ty Cobb changed the game the way Jackie Robinson changed the game. Jackie Robinson brought in a whole new group of talented players that would have never had the chance to play. I'm sorry but if you look at rosters today, Jackie Robinson has had more of an impact on the game than either Babe Ruth or Ty Cobb had. If it wasn't for Jackie Robinson we would never have been able to watch great players such as Lou Brock, Roberto Clemente, Bob Gibson, Pedro Martinez, Ken Griffey, Jr., or Henry Aaron. Think about it. Cobb stole bases, Ruth hit the ball, and Robinson allowed everyone to play the game and was one of the greatest players arguably.All fair points, but this thread isn't about "who changed the game." It's about who played the game the best. It's an important distinction. I'm not knocking Jackie Robinson. In fact, he's one of my all-time favorite players. The importance of Jackie Robinson's contribution to baseball is all but immeasurable. That said, I don't think he can seriously be included in any discussion of the greatest players of all-time. Sorry, but that's just how I see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infrared41 Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 You have the typical players you'd expect to see in this discussion (Ruth, Williams, Cobb, etc), but I'm surprised about others not being mentioned. I don't think we've gotten around to actually discussing players. We're still debating who we should put in the discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winghaz Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 Willie Mays is the best player in my lifetime. Better than Ted Williams. Better than Hank Aaron. Even better than Vada Pinson.I do have to knock him down one notch for all-time best player behind George Herman Ruth. I'd rate Ty Cobb third behind them.Now, where would Barry Bonds be ranked if he had never taken steroids? I mean, he was on his way to being one of the best ever before his, ahem, growth surge. It's one of those what-ifs we could debate over and over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infrared41 Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 Willie Mays is the best player in my lifetime. Better than Ted Williams. Better than Hank Aaron. Even better than Vada Pinson.That got a chuckle out of me. Well done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ESTONES6 Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 Coming from a Mickey Mantle fan... Willie Mays. He did it all. Enough said. SAINT IGNATIUS WILDCATS | CLEVELAND BROWNS | CLEVELAND CAVALIERS | CLEVELAND INDIANS | THE OHIO STATE BUCKEYES Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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