BASEBALL ALL-TIME DRAFT: Discussion Thread (PLEASE LOCK)

[AnythingChicago]

Nash61: you're crazy. I can name 3 SPs, and 1 RP, of more value than Plank. But that doesn't mean it was a terrible pick. Just a questionable one, in my opinion.

I would say its a bit of a reach.

I don't think anyone was going after Plank for awhile.

Actually, he was my next pick.

Look at all the great pitchers still available. All three have over 310 wins, and all 3 didn't play in the Dead Ball Era.

Oh, I know. I only know of two that you speak of.

Looking again, there's four. You've got some options.

Yup, got all four.

Hint: None of them played in the Dead Ball Era.

[YessSir32]

Nash61: you're crazy. I can name 3 SPs, and 1 RP, of more value than Plank. But that doesn't mean it was a terrible pick. Just a questionable one, in my opinion.

I would say its a bit of a reach.

I don't think anyone was going after Plank for awhile.

Actually, he was my next pick.

Look at all the great pitchers still available. All three have over 310 wins, and all 3 didn't play in the Dead Ball Era.

Oh, I know. I only know of two that you speak of.

Looking again, there's four. You've got some options.

Yup, got all four.

Hint: None of them played in the Dead Ball Era.

Yeah, I would name them off, but I don't wanna give away some good pitchers.

[Lights Out]

Little known fact: Cy Young could hit (18 career home runs in the Dead Ball Era).

Let's not get ahead of ourselves here. -47 career oRAR, -3.1 oWAR, -233.5 BtRuns. Just because he hit a few home runs in the Dead Ball Era doesn't mean he wasn't a total albatross on offense like most pitchers are.

[AnythingChicago]

Little known fact: Cy Young could hit (18 career home runs in the Dead Ball Era).

Let's not get ahead of ourselves here. -47 career oRAR, -3.1 oWAR, -233.5 BtRuns. Just because he hit a few home runs in the Dead Ball Era doesn't mean he wasn't a total albatross on offense like most pitchers are.

What the hell are oRAR and oWAR? Sounds like a toddler's first words.

[pmoehrin]

If anyone has great hitting pitchers its me.

Spahn and Johnson could both rake.

[Lights Out]

Little known fact: Cy Young could hit (18 career home runs in the Dead Ball Era).

Let's not get ahead of ourselves here. -47 career oRAR, -3.1 oWAR, -233.5 BtRuns. Just because he hit a few home runs in the Dead Ball Era doesn't mean he wasn't a total albatross on offense like most pitchers are.

What the hell are oRAR and oWAR? Sounds like a toddler's first words.

oRAR -- Offensive Runs above Replacement Level

Total of other columns except for defensive values

Includes batting, baserunning, positional adjustment, and a playing time adjustment

for the number of runs an average player is better than a replacement player.

Replacement is set for a .320 team winning percentage.

Developed by Sean Smith of BaseballProjection.com

oWAR -- Offensive Wins Above Replacement for position players

The same statistic as Wins Above Replacement for Position

Players (WAR), but with the defensive value excluded.

Contains the factor for batting stats, a positional adjustment, and the replacement player adjustment.

Factors developed by Sean Smith of BaseballProjection.com

That must be one smart, baseball-loving toddler.

[AnythingChicago]

Oh, they're variations of VORP. Okay.

[oddball]

I don't believe stats tell the whole story. All these new fandangled stats are just that, especially when you've never seen a player play and the competition they played against. If you want to build a team based off of stats, go look at what it's done to the Oakland A's. I want to know what a player does in the clutch, and what I've seen a player do in the clutch with my own eyes. If based on that, then Randy Johnson is a horrible pick. Why? Because as Joe Torre would tell you, he was so self-conscious and insecure that he couldn't be counted on in the big moments. That to me says more than career strikeouts, wins, and ERA and all these new fancy stats. When did a player get their hits, or even when did a pitcher give up their hits? Was it in the first inning and then they shut the opposition down or was it at the end of the game and they gave up a 3 run home run to loose the game? What's a pitcher do with bases loaded? Does he bear down, or does he stress and give up a walk or even worse a hit or homer? You can't read that in stats, but if you've seen a pitcher pitch in the clutch and get out of tough spots, then you know what you have. That's why I value pitchers such as Bert Blyleven, David Cone, Bob Forsch, etc. over a Cy Young or whatever pitchers from the early years of baseball. I've seen with my eyes what players today can do. I doubt there are few people who saw Cy Young or Walter Johnson pitch that are still alive, let alone played with them. Stats are a tool to help you evaluate player, but what your eyes see, will tell you more than what a number on a piece of paper will ever tell you. Look at Ichiro. If he wanted to, he could be easily a 40 home run guy as he has that kind of power, but that's not the game he plays so stats will never tell you how dangerous of a power hitter he really is.

[pmoehrin]

I don't believe stats tell the whole story. All these new fandangled stats are just that, especially when you've never seen a player play and the competition they played against. If you want to build a team based off of stats, go look at what it's done to the Oakland A's. I want to know what a player does in the clutch, and what I've seen a player do in the clutch with my own eyes. If based on that, then Randy Johnson is a horrible pick. Why? Because as Joe Torre would tell you, he was so self-conscious and insecure that he couldn't be counted on in the big moments. That to me says more than career strikeouts, wins, and ERA and all these new fancy stats. When did a player get their hits, or even when did a pitcher give up their hits? Was it in the first inning and then they shut the opposition down or was it at the end of the game and they gave up a 3 run home run to loose the game? What's a pitcher do with bases loaded? Does he bear down, or does he stress and give up a walk or even worse a hit or homer? You can't read that in stats, but if you've seen a pitcher pitch in the clutch and get out of tough spots, then you know what you have. That's why I value pitchers such as Bert Blyleven, David Cone, Bob Forsch, etc. over a Cy Young or whatever pitchers from the early years of baseball. I've seen with my eyes what players today can do. I doubt there are few people who saw Cy Young or Walter Johnson pitch that are still alive, let alone played with them. Stats are a tool to help you evaluate player, but what your eyes see, will tell you more than what a number on a piece of paper will ever tell you. Look at Ichiro. If he wanted to, he could be easily a 40 home run guy as he has that kind of power, but that's not the game he plays so stats will never tell you how dangerous of a power hitter he really is.

So game seven of the 2001 World Series when he came in and pitched two scoreless innings to help Arizona win the World Series, when he carried Houston to the '98 Central title and when he pitched a 3 hit shutout in a playoff tiebreaker against the Angels in '95 all counted for nothing?

I get what your saying, but I'd pick a better example then Randy Johnson. Granted he didn't do well for the Yankees, but it wasn't his fault they lost those two years either.

I've seen Johnson pitch too well down the stretch in too many big time games to ever say he wasn't a guy you would want on the mound in a big time situation.

[Lights Out]

I don't believe stats tell the whole story.

You're right - that's why people come up with new stats seemingly every year. The goal of sabermetrics is to give us numeric trends about as many conceivable situations as possible, per player. We're obviously not there yet. However, the advanced statistics we do have are very helpful in looking at plenty of facets in a player's game.

Also, "only the clutch matters" is an extremely simplistic viewpoint, for many reasons ranging from the subjectivity of "clutch" to the small sample size.

[Billy B]

I really like coming away with Grove and Schmidt today. I think I'm doing pretty well so far on some of the thinner positions where you're gonna have a real drop-off from the top end talent.

[pmoehrin]

I really like coming away with Grove and Schmidt today. I think I'm doing pretty well so far on some of the thinner positions where you're gonna have a real drop-off from the top end talent.

Thanks for sending in your picks and speeding things up.

[knnhrvy16]

To be honest, I am thrilled that Roy Campanella fell to my picks. I value the position of catcher very highly (I learned just how important the position was in many areas of the game while playing high school and watching our catcher, an all-stater), and wanted to spend either pick 45 or 46 on a quality catcher.

Unfortunately (and tragically), Campy's career was cut very short and his statistics and games played are not nearly as high as his contemporaries as a result. However, I firmly believe he was, with Yogi Berra, one of the two greatest catchers of his era. He brought more than stats to the field, as he was a true leader and a fantastic teammate with loads of heart, as well as possessing a brilliant catcher's mind. His value is most evident, however, in his THREE NL MVP awards (1951, 1953, 1955), as well as his efforts in helping the Dodgers to the 1955 World Series title. I was ecstatic to obtain a catcher of his quality (not to mention one of my all-time favorite players) to put on my team. So far, he's the front-runner for the title of Team Captain for my Dodgers.

[mania]

Campanella and Schmidt were two of the short-listed guys I had in mind for my next pick. Hopefully not everyone else on that list gets popped before my pick.

[pmoehrin]

I'm going to bed so anyone picking after me will have to wait until tomorrow.

Again if it is my turn I'll have it in first thing in the morning. 10 AM at the latest but probably earlier.

[Dexter Morgan]

PLAYERS TAKEN

1. Round 1.
   
2. Willie Mays
   
3. Ty Cobb
   
4. Babe Ruth
   
5. Ted Williams
   
6. Hank Aaron
   
7. Barry Bonds
   
8. Sandy Koufax
   
9. Walter Johnson
   
10. Lou Gehrig
    
11. Stan Musial
    
12. Roger Clemens
    
13. Satchel Paige
    
14. Josh Gibson
    
15. Joe DiMaggio
    
16. Jimmie Foxx
    Round 2.
    
17. Christy Mathewson
    
18. Pete Rose
    
19. Ken Griffey, Jr.
    
20. Mickey Mantle
    
21. Sadaharu Oh
    
22. Honus Wagner
    
23. Johnny Bench
    
24. Warren Spahn
    
25. Reggie Jackson
    
26. Rogers Hornsby
    
27. Nolan Ryan
    
28. Alex Rodriguez
    
29. Cy Young
    
30. Tris Speaker
    
31. Greg Maddux
    
    Round 3.
    
32. Yogi Berra
    
33. Randy Johnson
    
34. Mark McGwire
    
35. Grover Cleveland Alexander
    
36. Roberto Clemente
    
37. Tom Seaver
    
38. Rickey Henderson
    
39. Eddie Collins
    
40. Frank Robinson
    
41. Charlie Gehringer
    
42. Ichiro Suzuki
    
43. Bob Feller
    
44. Lefty Grove
    
45. Cal Ripken, Jr.
    
46. Nap Lajoie
    Round 4.
    
47. Roy Campanella
    
48. Eddie Plank
    
49. Mike Schmidt
    
50. Mike Piazza
    
51. Kirby Puckett.
    
52. 
    
53. 
    
54. 
    
55. 
    
56. 
    
57. 
    
58. 
    
59. 
    
60. 
    
61. 
    

[Lights Out]

Kirby Puckett was that center fielder I was debating earlier. I'm very happy that he fell to me. Too bad his career didn't last longer, but he had 12 strong years.

[Dexter Morgan]

I may not be around all afternoon tomorrow, I sent my picks to pmoehrin.

[knnhrvy16]

Kirby Puckett was that center fielder I was debating earlier. I'm very happy that he fell to me. Too bad his career didn't last longer, but he had 12 strong years.

You're really crankin' out the picks well lately. Ichiro and Puckett particularly have impressed me - your offense is going to be stellar! That said, it can't be forgotten just how great Ichiro is and Puckett was on defense. Both were incredible defensive outfielders, as well. Great all around picks!

[infrared41]

I don't believe stats tell the whole story. All these new fandangled stats are just that, especially when you've never seen a player play and the competition they played against.

My 2 cents on this...

I'm certainly not in the sabermetrics are evil camp, but there are times where I feel they are trying to tell me something that I can see with my own eyes isn't true. For example, a year or two ago, someone ran his sabermetric stats and then used those stats to declare that Ben Zobrist was the best player in baseball. I'd agree that Zobrist was probably one of the best values (salary vs. production) in baseball, but there's no way in hell the guy was the best player in the game.

Granted, claiming Zobrist to be the best player was hardly a universal sabermetric declaration. But still, any stats system that can come to the conclusion that Ben Zobrist is the best player in the game clearly has some flaws. I'm all for analyzing data and all that, but there are times where you gotta go with what you see; whether the stats agree or not.