BEST TEAM VOTE: Baseball All-Time Draft

[Dexter Morgan]

Detroit Stars

Starters:

C- Mickey Cochrane

1B- George Sisler

2B- Charlie Gehringer

SS- Honus Wagner

3B- Wade Boggs

OF- Stan Musial

CF- Hack Wilson

OF- Sam Crawford

DH- Harold Baines

Bench:

C- Bill Freehan

1B/3B- #24 Tony Perez

SS/2B- Billy Herman

OF- Paul Waner

CF- Wally Berger

Rotation:

SP- Gaylord Perry

SP- Ed Walsh

SP- Hal Newhouser

SP- Jack Morris

SP- Frank Tanana

SP- Tim Keefe

Bullpen:

RP- Mark Fidrych

RP- Bobby Jenks

RP- Jose Valverde

RP- Randy Myers

CL- Billy Wagner

---------------------------------------------

Salisbury Steaks

Starters:

C- Yogi Berra

1B- Rafael Palmeiro

2B- Bill Mazeroski

SS- Derek Jeter

3B- Chipper Jones

OF- Jimmy Sheckard

CF- Willie Mays

OF- Jose Canseco

DH- Prince Fielder

Bench:

C- Biz Mackey

1B/3B- Cap Anson

U- Dan Brouthers

OF- Bo Jackson

CF- Deion Sanders

Rotation:

SP- Greg Maddux

SP- Three Finger Brown

SP- John Clarkson

SP- Dizzy Dean

SP- Eddie Cicotte

SP- Albert Spalding

Bullpen:

RP- Greg A. Harris

RP- Noboru Akiyama

LR- Shunsuke Watanabe

SU- Mike Stanton

CL- Mariano Rivera

---------------------------------------------

New York Highlanders

Starters:

C- Bill Dickey

1B- Eddie Murray

2B- Bobby Doerr

SS- Alex Rodriguez

3B- Judy Johnson

OF- Ted Williams

CF- Earle Combs

OF- Mel Ott

DH- Dave Winfield

Bench:

C-: Ernie Lombardi

1B/3B- Don Mattingly

SS/2B- Joe Sewell

OF- Harry Heilmann

CF- Earl Averill

Rotation:

SP- Grover Cleveland Alexander

SP- Steve Carlton

SP- Carl Hubbell

SP- Ron Guidry

SP- Johan Santana

SP- Dazzy Vance

Bullpen:

LR- Don Newcombe

MR- Jeff Nelson

SU- Dave Righetti

SU- Mike Marshall

CL- Sparky Lyle

---------------------------------------------

Los Angeles Dodgers

Starters:

C- Roy Campanella

1B- Jimmie Foxx

2B- Napoleon Lajoie

3B- George Kell

SS- Luke Appling

LF- Carl Yastrzemski

CF- "Cool Papa" Bell

RF- Goose Goslin

DH- Bill Terry

Bench:

C- Ray Schalk

1B- Todd Helton

2B/SS- Maury Wills

OF- Chuck Klein

CF- Lloyd Waner

Rotation:

SP- Christy Mathewson

SP- Don Sutton

SP- Robin Roberts

SP- Early Wynn

SP- Mickey Lolich

SP- Fernando Valenzuela

Bullpen:

RP- Jim Kaat

RP- Scot Shields

RP- Roberto Hernandez

RP- Jason Isringhausen

CL- Lee Smith

---------------------------------------------

Atlanta Black Crackers

Starters:

C- Jorge Posada

1B- Jeff Bagwell

2B- Rogers Hornsby

SS- Joe Cronin

3B- George Brett

OF- Barry Bonds

CF- Duke Snider

OF- Tim Raines

DH- Joe Jackson

Bench:

C- Jim Sundberg

1B/3B- Buddy Bell

SS/2B- Lou Whitaker

OF- Bobby Bonds

CF- Andruw Jones

Rotation:

SP- Tom Seaver

SP- Pedro Martinez

SP- John Smoltz

SP- Bret Saberhagen

SP- Old Hoss Radbourn

SP- Luis Tiant

Bullpen:

RP- Andy Pettite

RP- Ron Perranoski

RP- Wilbur Wood

RP- Jeff Reardon

CL- John Wetteland

---------------------------------------------

Pittsburgh Crawfords

Starters:

C - Johnny Bench

1B - Lou Gehrig

2B - Joe Morgan

3B - Brooks Robinson

SS - Alan Trammell

OF - Al Kaline

CF - Dale Murphy

OF - Frank Robinson

DH - Vada Pinson

Bench:

C - Elston Howard

1B/3B - Graig Nettles

2B/SS - Nomar Garciaparra

OF - Gary Sheffield

CF - Al Oliver

Rotation:

SP - Bob Gibson

SP - Tom Glavine

SP - Mike Mussina

SP - Catfish Hunter

SP - Waite Hoyt

SP - Dave Stieb

Bullpen:

RP- Mike Cuellar

RP- Tom Gordon

RP- Jeff Montgomery

RP- Rod Beck

CL- Tom Henke

---------------------------------------------

Tampa Bay Devil Rays

Starters:

C- Joe Mauer

1B- Sadaharu Oh

2B- Roberto Alomar

SS- Omar Vizquel

3B- Darrell Evans

OF- Larry Walker

CF- Kirby Puckett

OF- Ichiro Suzuki

DH- Edgar Martínez

Bench:

C- Javy Lopez

1B/3B- Gary Gaetti

SS/2B- Craig Counsell

OF- Luis Gonzalez

CF- Devon White

Rotation:

SP- Roger Clemens

SP- Roy Halladay

SP- Kevin Brown

SP- Felix Hernandez

SP- David Cone

SP- Orel Herschiser

Bullpen:

RP- David Wells

RP- Jeff Brantley

RP- Armando Benitez

RP- Scott Downs

CL- Trevor Hoffman

---------------------------------------------

Chicago Cubs

Starters:

C- Josh Gibson

1B- Willie Stargell

2B- Ryne Sandberg

SS- Barry Larkin

3B- Mike Schmidt

OF- Billy Williams

CF- Ken Griffey, Jr.

OF- Sammy Sosa

DH- Manny Ramirez

Bench:

C- Buck Ewing

1B/3B- Fred McGriff

SS/2B- Luis Aparicio

OF- Minnie Minoso

CF- Fred Lynn

Rotation:

SP- Lefty Grove

SP- Fergie Jenkins

SP- Joe Williams

SP- Tim Lincecum

SP- Jim Bunning

SP- J.R. Richard

Bullpen:

RP- Dock Ellis

RP- Gene Garber

RP- Bruce Sutter

RP- John Franco

CL- Robb Nen

---------------------------------------------

Albuquerque Dukes

Starters:

C- Ivan Rodriguez

1B- Jim Thome

2B- Chase Utley

SS- Pee Wee Reese

3B- Ken Boyer

OF- Reggie Jackson

CF- Andre Dawson

OF- Ricky Henderson

DH- Joe Medwick

Bench:

C- Mike Scioscia

1B- Johnny Mize

2B- Bobby Grich

3B/SS- Matt Williams

OF- Vince Coleman

OF- Carl Furillo

Rotation:

SP- Sandy Koufax

SP- Don Drysdale

SP- Dwight Gooden

SP- Lew Burdette

SP- Mudcat Grant

Bullpen:

RP- Rick Honeycutt

RP- Alejandro Pena

RP- Troy Percival

RP- Dan Quisenberry

CL- Dennis Eckersley

---------------------------------------------

Newark Eagles

Starters:

C- Gabby Hartnett

1B- Ernie Banks

2B- Eddie Collins

SS- Robin Yount

3B- Eddie Mathews

OF- Al Simmons

CF- Richie Ashburn

OF- Ed Delahanty

DH- Dick Allen

Bench:

C- Wally Schang

2B- Nellie Fox

3B- Home Run Baker

OF- Brett Butler

OF- Sherry Magee

Rotation:

SP- Walter Johnson

SP- Warren Spahn

SP- Red Ruffing

SP- Bert Blyleven

SP- Bob Lemon

SP- Eppa Rixey

Bullpen:

LR- Billy Pierce

MR- Don McMahon

SU- Tug McGraw

SU-Dave Smith

CL- Kent Tekulve

---------------------------------------------

Milwaukee Baseball LLC

Starters

C- Gary Carter

1B-Albert Pujols

2B- Frankie Frisch

SS- Lou Boudreau

3B- Paul Molitor

OF- Henry "Hank" Aaron

CF- Jim Edmonds

OF- Roberto Clemente

DH- David Ortiz

Bench:

C- Bob Uecker

1B/3B- George Scott

SS/2B- Red Schoendienst

OF- Ryan Braun

CF- Kenny Lofton

Rotation:

SP- Nolan Ryan

SP- Kid Nichols

SP- Dennis Martinez

SP- CC Sabathia

SP- Dave Stewart

SP- Tom Candiotti

Bullpen:

RP- Mike Timlin

RP- Cliff Lee

RP- Mike Fetters

RP- Francisco Rodriguez

CL- Dan Plesac

---------------------------------------------

Montreal Royals

Starters:

C- Thurman Munson

1B- Rod Carew

2B- Jackie Robinson

SS- Arky Vaughan

3B- Ron Santo

OF- Ty Cobb

CF- Tris Speaker

OF- Vladimir Guerrero

DH- Willie McCovey

Bench:

C- Ted Simmons

1B/3B- Buck Leonard

SS/2B- Craig Biggio

OF- Willie Keeler

CF- Bernie Williams

Rotation:

SP- Randy Johnson

SP- Jim Palmer

SP- Whitey Ford

SP- Lefty Gomez

SP- Tommy John

SP- Justin Verlander

Bullpen:

RP- Chuck Finley

RP- Doug Jones

RP- John Hiller

RP- Joe Nathan

CL- Rollie Fingers

---------------------------------------------

New York Mets

Starters:

C- Mike Piazza

1B- Gil Hodges

2B- Jeff Kent

SS- Jose Reyes

3B- Harmon Killebrew

OF- Lou Brock

CF- Mickey Mantle

OF- Dave Parker

DH- Darryl Strawberry

Bench:

C- Jerry Grote

1B/3B- Keith Hernandez

SS/2B- Phil Rizutto

OF- Ralph Kiner

CF-Lenny Dykstra

Rotation:

SP- Bob Feller

SP- Juan Marichal

SP- Vida Blue

SP- Satchel Paige

SP- Jerry Koosman

SP- Josh Beckett

Bullpen:

RP- Tim Wakefield

RP- Brian Wilson

RP- Jesse Orosco

RP- Luis Arroyo

CL- Goose Gossage

[AnythingChicago]

I'm actually a bit surprised at how well Jahgee did with my Steaks. He picked a pretty good team. But one nitpick: I would put Fielder at first and Palmeiro at DH, because Fielder never really played DH, but Palmeiro did.

[Jahgee]

Palmeiro had less errors in the same amount of time that Fielder has been a Major League player (7 seasons), Fielder has 12 more erros at this point in his career compared to Palmeiro.

[mania]

I'm actually a bit surprised at how well Jahgee did with my Steaks. He picked a pretty good team.

LOLwut.

Did you see the bench or the bullpen? He ran your team into the :censored:ing ground. You'd have been better off coming back after everyone else had picked and just getting scraps. Horrid, easily the worst team of the group.

[Jahgee]

You just don't see the methods of my madness, AnythingChicago does.

[AnythingChicago]

I'm actually a bit surprised at how well Jahgee did with my Steaks. He picked a pretty good team.

LOLwut.

Did you see the bench or the bullpen? He ran your team into the :censored:ing ground. You'd have been better off coming back after everyone else had picked and just getting scraps. Horrid, easily the worst team of the group.

Well, for him it wasn't bad. And the starting lineup and starting pitching weren't awful (well, I picked the core of that....)

[gingerbreadmann]

Whoever is the Devil Rays--are you operating under the idea that modern players are naturally more talented than prior-era players? It raises a good question of whether we are judging these players based on dominance relative to their eras, or natural ability. Because I think if you brought Babe Ruth back from the dead, Pedro would own him (after he pops him in the ass, of course).

[pmoehrin]

Whoever is the Devil Rays--are you operating under the idea that modern players are naturally more talented than prior-era players? It raises a good question of whether we are judging these players based on dominance relative to their eras, or natural ability. Because I think if you brought Babe Ruth back from the dead, Pedro would own him (after he pops him in the ass, of course).

I think you have to view it as dominance realtive to their eras.

Guys from the 20's and 30's just didn't have the same equipment as guys today do, nor were the techniques of training in place.

If somebody like Babe Ruth played today, there's no question that he would have taken much better care of his body. He would not be going out every night drinking and partying when he's making the kind of money he is and when everyone else is working out. He would have to work out as well just to keep up and I think he would.

You simply can't displace somebody like an Albert Pujols as he is now and put him in the 1920's. He would destroy it, but had he grown up in that era he wouldn't anywhere near the amount of access to workout equipment, modern medicine and you would come up with a very different player if you put him in that era from birth and expect him to come up during the 20's.

[pmoehrin]

This is the top 25 guys I had listed not to go in the draft. Not much name value here as you can tell, and alot of these guys aren't in the HOF. I'd look up their stats though if your not sure who they are. I've said multiple times that the best and worst guys in the HOF come from the early days in baseball history. Guys like Chick Hafey, Hack Wilson, Harry Hooper, Johnny Evers and Jesse Haines have absolutely no business being in the HOF. Some of these guys though especially the ones at the top I feel make a very strong case.

1. P-Burleigh Grimes

2. P-Ted Lyons

3. P-Bucky Walters

4. SS-Luis Aparicio

5. SS-Rabbit Maranville

6. 3B-Stan Hack

7. 1B-Ed Konetchy (he was the first baseman I was referring to that I said nobody would get)

8. SS-Dave Bancroft

9. P-Paul Derringer

10. 3B-Heinie Groh

11. P-Carl Mays

12. P-Wes Ferrell

13. P-Dolf Luque

14. P-Bobo Newsom

15. P-Wilbur Cooper

16. C-Roger Bresnahan

17. 2B-Joe Gordon

18. P-Stan Coveleski

19. OF/3B-Tommy Leach

20. 3B-Willie Kamm

21. 1B-Steve Garvey

22. P-George Uhle

23. P-Red Faber

24. 1B-Orlando Cepeda

25. 1B-Jake Daubert

[OnWis97]

This is the top 25 guys I had listed not to go in the draft. Not much name value here as you can tell, and alot of these guys aren't in the HOF. I'd look up their stats though if your not sure who they are. I've said multiple times that the best and worst guys in the HOF come from the early days in baseball history. Guys like Chick Hafey, Hack Wilson, Harry Hooper, Johnny Evers and Jesse Haines have absolutely no business being in the HOF. Some of these guys though especially the ones at the top I feel make a very strong case.

Tinker to Evers to Chance...poster example of the voters being too gung ho on putting guys in early. Chance maybe deserved it, but the other two got in purely for longevity with each other (ironic since the two of them could not stand each other).

[OnWis97]

I did not follow the other threads, but was Pete Rose banned from the draft? Mark McGwire I would think would at least make the 25 next-best list...I guess unless you are all crediting most of what he did to roids.

Edit: And I suppose I am going to get schooled by someone way more stat-savvy than I, but Tony Gwynn?

Edit Edit: NVM...I see there was a defunct team that picked Rose, Ripken, Gwynn, etc.

[pmoehrin]

This is the top 25 guys I had listed not to go in the draft. Not much name value here as you can tell, and alot of these guys aren't in the HOF. I'd look up their stats though if your not sure who they are. I've said multiple times that the best and worst guys in the HOF come from the early days in baseball history. Guys like Chick Hafey, Hack Wilson, Harry Hooper, Johnny Evers and Jesse Haines have absolutely no business being in the HOF. Some of these guys though especially the ones at the top I feel make a very strong case.

Tinker to Evers to Chance...poster example of the voters being too gung ho on putting guys in early. Chance maybe deserved it, but the other two got in purely for longevity with each other (ironic since the two of them could not stand each other).

None of them really deserve to be in. Chance is the best of the bunch but even his numbers aren't that impressive. There's other guys who I don't think have an argument to get in the Hall, I just didn't mention them. Earle Combs, Enos Slaughter, Chief Bender, Phil Rizzuto, Edd Roush, Heinie Manush.

When you actually start looking into the worst guys in the Hall you typically find that they were good players on great teams, and benefited from playing in an era not to different from the 90's where huge offensive numbers were normal. To give you an example another guy you can add on the list is Kiki Cuyler. His career batting average is .321. In 1929 he hit .360 You know where that got him in the race for the league batting average? 6th. He wasn't even the leading hitter on his own team or even the second leading hitter. He finished third.

[pmoehrin]

I did not follow the other threads, but was Pete Rose banned from the draft? Mark McGwire I would think would at least make the 25 next-best list...I guess unless you are all crediting most of what he did to roids.

Edit: And I suppose I am going to get schooled by someone way more stat-savvy than I, but Tony Gwynn?

What happened with those guys were they were drafted on teams that were folded.

Good thing you brought that up though, because it would be pretty stupid not to say anything about those. Rose would be at the top of the list if he wasn't picked. That's an easy call.

[Dexter Morgan]

I did not follow the other threads, but was Pete Rose banned from the draft? Mark McGwire I would think would at least make the 25 next-best list...I guess unless you are all crediting most of what he did to roids.

Edit: And I suppose I am going to get schooled by someone way more stat-savvy than I, but Tony Gwynn?

2 of the teams dropped out before the draft ended, so some players are stuck on defunct teams. Some pretty damn good one's too, including Babe Ruth, Joe DiMaggio, Hank Greenberg, Cy Young, and Cal Ripken Jr.

Joe Torre

Mark McGwire

Ozzie Smith

Scott Rolen

Babe Ruth

Oscar Charleston

Hank Greenberg

Cy Young

Phil Niekro

Addie Joss

Rube Waddell

Carlton Fisk

Pete Rose

Cal Ripken Jr.

Pie Traynor

Tony Gwynn

Joe Dimaggio

Frank Thomas

Eddie Plank

Curt Schilling

Hoyt Wilhelm

[Saintsfan]

I like Pittsburgh best, solid hitting, good defense in the field and for my money the best starting rotation.

[pmoehrin]

I'm pretty surprised that the Dodgers have gotten zero votes so far, but I'm also not sure if people the people voting really understand just how great guys like Nap Lajoie, Don Sutton, Luke Appling and Robin Roberts really were.

I had Appling rated as the sixth best shortstop and I'm not sure anyone would see him in that light. I think most casual fans would say someone like Derek Jeter was/is a hands down better ballplayer and not think twice about it. The numbers would certainly say that its far from a slam dunk to say that Jeter is better, but I don't think a casual fan would care.

Lajoie is a turn of the century player that I think gets largely overshadowed by Wagner and Cobb who were better players, but Lajoie was hands down the best player in the American League during the 1900's.

And Don Sutton for whatever reason is seen as a guy that got to 300 wins simply because he hung around long enough. The fact that he's only a three time all-star would support this view, but Don Sutton has over 3500 strikeouts as well. I don't think alot of people would know that because they don't view Don Sutton as a power pitcher. Don Sutton was a damn good pitcher for alot of years and I see him ranked 43 over on baseball-reference.com and I gotta say that is way too low. You cannot tell me there are 42 pitchers that had better careers then Don Sutton.

[Saintsfan]

I think it would be relatively easy to find 42 pitchers with better careers than Sutton. That's not to say he had a bad career, but he is the personification of 'good but not great'. If he's your second pitcher behind Mathewson that's a real big drop off.

My other question with the Dodgers is would they consistently score runs in this hypothetical league to win consistently behind that pitching. Mathewson would be hard to beat, but how many wins would anyone else get?

[knnhrvy16]

I think it would be relatively easy to find 42 pitchers with better careers than Sutton. That's not to say he had a bad career, but he is the personification of 'good but not great'. If he's your second pitcher behind Mathewson that's a real big drop off.

My other question with the Dodgers is would they consistently score runs in this hypothetical league to win consistently behind that pitching. Mathewson would be hard to beat, but how many wins would anyone else get?

I don't think my Dodgers are the best team by any means, but considering where my picks were in the draft, I think I picked a pretty good team and am happy with my rotation. It's a durable workhorse rotation that isn't going to give any breaks. As pmoehrin said, Sutton is very underrated. 300+ wins and 3,500+ strikeouts is a great career.

As far as my lineups, I'm happy with them, too. Lots of high averages and OBP, so I like my chances there. I was thrilled to snag hidden gems like Appling, Lajoie, Goslin and the like.

Again, considering where my picks were in the draft, I'm happy with my team.

[pmoehrin]

I think it would be relatively easy to find 42 pitchers with better careers than Sutton. That's not to say he had a bad career, but he is the personification of 'good but not great

I'll dispute you on the good but never great. '71-'75 I'd say he's there with Tom Seaver for the best pitcher in the NL. Seaver's ERA is 2.43 over that stretch. Sutton is 2.63 About the same with innings pitched. I'll say Seaver is better, but Sutton is right there. You look at the other guys in that time period that were also dominant, Jenkins, Carlton, their ERA is much higher and someone like Andy Messersmith will get you the same ERA but pitches alot more to contact and walks more guys.

So when people things like he was good but never great, he's the second best guy in his league over a five year stretch. How is that not considered great? Tell me any pitcher that could be considered the number two guy in his league over a five year stretch and not be considered great for that stretch.

I'm really trying to figure out where this Don Sutton was a never a dominating pitcher idea comes from. I don't know, because he clearly was. Maybe not for his entire career, but I can point to a prolonged period of time where he is.

As far as 42 other pitchers having better careers then him. Try to name them that's all I'm going to say. I'm seeing guys ahead of him like Juan Marichal who have a more prolonged period of dominance, but where's the body of work? 3500 IP's versus 5200 IP's. That's at least 7 full seasons. And again can point to where Sutton is a dominating pitcher. Tough argument to convince me of. You basically have to show me that he's almost twice as good in the time he pitches to make up for the career stats. And when I can point to the same person and say he was the second best pitcher in his league for 1/4 of his career, its just about an impossible argument to make.

[Saintsfan]

I wasn't saying the Dodgers are a bad line up, but I can see plenty of justifiable reasons why people would over look them.

And 4-5 years of dominance doesn't seem long in a 22 year career! As laudable as his record may be, Sutton, for me, needed to be more consistently dominant to be right up there in the upper echelons of pitchers.