North Dakota to Drop Fighting Sioux Moniker

[winghaz]

The Grand Forks Herald reported that the NCAA has reversed itself, and is now no longer selling material on its website with the Sioux nickname or logo.

[mafiaman]

The name ought to be retired and Engelstad was a ing scumbag.

Fact: After 9/11/01, while casinos in Las Vegas laid off employees by the hundreds, Engelstad vowed to not lay off a single employee at his hotel/casino. He kept his word.

Fact: In 2002, after state budget cuts took their toll in North Dakota, Engelstad personally paid for 2,000 wheelchairs.

Fact: During the holidays in Las Vegas, Ralph Engelstad served the area homeless with turkey dinners and also provided haircuts and showers at his hotel for those who needed them.

Fact: Ralph Engelstad received many State and National awards for hiring the disabled, and approximately 13 percent of his Imperial Palace employees had some form of disability.

Fact: Ralph Engelstad was named "Employer of the Year" by the Nevada Governor?s Committee on Employment of People with Disabilities in 1987 and 1989. In 1991, he received the prestigious "National Employer of the Year" award from the President?s Committee on Employment of People with Disabilities.

If Engelstad was indeed a 'Neo-Nazi' or 'Nazi' as some people claim, wouldn't he have personally led the charge AGAINST a nickname like Fighting Sioux?

Also, another thought: When West Virginia was derided as 'brokeback Mountaineers' several years ago in Spokane, WA, ESPN and fans were so upset that Gonzaga students were punished for their signs and chants. I didn't hear anyone call for West Virginia to change its name because of the possible derogatory slurs that could be used against it. Why is North Dakota being punished because fans in Fargo like to yell 'Sioux suck'?

Congratulations, NCAA, you let scumbag institutions like Kentucky churn out crops of 1-and-done basketball players every year and USC, Ohio State, North Carolina, and Miami run amuck on AND off the football field, at least you have succeeded in changing a school name. Bravo.

[aci]

Alright, I have a solution. Have the mascot wear all black, and spell the name 'Sue'. After all, didn't Sue's name cause him to do a lot of fighting?

[IceCap]

I think we hit a nerve guys

The name ought to be retired and Engelstad was a ing scumbag.

Fact: After 9/11/01, while casinos in Las Vegas laid off employees by the hundreds, Engelstad vowed to not lay off a single employee at his hotel/casino. He kept his word.

Fact: In 2002, after state budget cuts took their toll in North Dakota, Engelstad personally paid for 2,000 wheelchairs.

Fact: During the holidays in Las Vegas, Ralph Engelstad served the area homeless with turkey dinners and also provided haircuts and showers at his hotel for those who needed them.

Fact: Ralph Engelstad received many State and National awards for hiring the disabled, and approximately 13 percent of his Imperial Palace employees had some form of disability.

Fact: Ralph Engelstad was named "Employer of the Year" by the Nevada Governor’s Committee on Employment of People with Disabilities in 1987 and 1989. In 1991, he received the prestigious "National Employer of the Year" award from the President’s Committee on Employment of People with Disabilities.

Did he also die saving a puppy from drowning? That seems to be where this is heading.

Fact: Ralph Engelstad owned a large collection of National Socialist German Workers' Party memorabilia, including cars owned by prominent Nazi leaders. This doesn't make one a neo-Nazi in and of itself, but I think Engelstad crossed the line when he got a portrait of himself in a Nazi uniform done with the caption "To Adolf from Ralphie" and a painting of Hitler with the caption "To Ralphie from Adolf."

Fact: Ralph Engelstad hosted parties to celebrate Adolf Hitler's birthday where he gave out t-shirts that read "Adolf Hitler — European tour 1939-45."

I don't care how many good deeds he did while alive, he was a supporter of one of the most evil, genocidal regimes in history. I hope he's burning in hell, and I hope the University of North Dakota renames their hockey arena.

If Engelstad was indeed a 'Neo-Nazi' or 'Nazi' as some people claim, wouldn't he have personally led the charge AGAINST a nickname like Fighting Sioux?

No. Think about it for a moment. By continuing to use the name, even without consent of the Sioux peoples, the University of North Dakota would, essentially, be making the statement that they, an institution founded and run primarily by whites, own the name of a non-white people and can use it however they wish, a situation that would probably appeal to Mr. Engelstad's National Socialist sensibilities.

Also, another thought: When West Virginia was derided as 'brokeback Mountaineers' several years ago in Spokane, WA, ESPN and fans were so upset that Gonzaga students were punished for their signs and chants. I didn't hear anyone call for West Virginia to change its name because of the possible derogatory slurs that could be used against it. Why is North Dakota being punished because fans in Fargo like to yell 'Sioux suck'?

They're not being punished because opposing fans yell "Sioux sucks." Read the thread before you comment. They're being forced to change their name because they couldn't get the permission of both Sioux tribes to keep the name. That's it.

Congratulations, NCAA, you let scumbag institutions like Kentucky churn out crops of 1-and-done basketball players every year and USC, Ohio State, North Carolina, and Miami run amuck on AND off the football field, at least you have succeeded in changing a school name. Bravo.

What any of those other instances have to do with the UND being forced to drop the Fighting Sioux name is beyond me. I'll just take it to mean you have no real argument and you're just ranting at this point.

[Gothamite]

Also, another thought: When West Virginia was derided as 'brokeback Mountaineers' several years ago in Spokane, WA, ESPN and fans were so upset that Gonzaga students were punished for their signs and chants. I didn't hear anyone call for West Virginia to change its name because of the possible derogatory slurs that could be used against it. Why is North Dakota being punished because fans in Fargo like to yell 'Sioux suck'?

The issue isn't that the name could be turned into an offensive slur, but that many Native Americans already consider the name itself an offensive slur.

Congratulations, NCAA, you let scumbag institutions like Kentucky churn out crops of 1-and-done basketball players every year and USC, Ohio State, North Carolina, and Miami run amuck on AND off the football field, at least you have succeeded in changing a school name. Bravo.

One thing has absolutely nothing to do with the other. "Breathing is important, so why are you wasting valuable breathing time eating, sleeping or walking?"

[TheOldRoman]

The issue isn't that the name could be turned into an offensive slur, but that many Native Americans already consider the name itself an offensive slur.

One thing has absolutely nothing to do with the other. "Breathing is important, so why are you wasting valuable breathing time eating, sleeping or walking?"

Sorry, I think you're wrong on both points. Sioux doesn't have a negative connotation. The name was Sioux, and even with "fighting" as a prefix, I don't think the actual name offended Indians as much as the fact that they didn't want the school to use their name. Semantics, but this isn't a case like the Redskins. I don't think anyone would consider the term "fighting Sioux" a racial slur.

As for the other point, the NCAA has serious problems they continually overlook. They allow those schools to break rules constantly, they allow John Callipari to continue coaching, and they are supposedly still investigating Corey Maggette getting paid to play at Duke over a decade ago. They punish irrelevant schools and look the other way or drag their feet on money-makers. They cover up the fact that they exploit young athletes and maintain they are an "intellectual" organization. The going after Indian names/logos to show how "academic" they are seems a little trivial when they actively not only allow schools to cheat at such magnitudes, but whore out the athletes and rake in billions tax free (without giving them a dime of it) while pretending it is about good 'ol collegiate sportsmanship, like kids playing two-hand-touch on the quad. Sure, the NCAA could go after two things at once, but when they beat their progressive chests about the one issue of standing up for what is in most cases a small minority of offended Indians while ignoring the issue which goes against their explicit reason for existing, it seems a little strange. In the whole scheme of things, they don't care about being academic to begin with, and it seems like a ploy to show just how academic they actually are, ignoring that they are basically pimps.

[Seadragon76]

If anything, getting this issue solved will help UND in the long run. There were talks of the Big Sky (Where North Dakota is going to next season along with Southern Utah as full time members) were considering kicking North Dakota out because they haven't solved this nickname issue.

If anything, they ought to change the nickname to the 'Fighting Flickertails'. Although, how anyone can make a Flickertail look tough is beyond me...

[october23sp]

[Redacted] I know hundreds of Native Americans who went to my high school decked out in Fighting Sioux attire with no intention of even going to UND. You know why? Because that name and they logo made them :censored:ing proud of who they are. [Redacted] [Redacted] The NCAA is one of the most corrupt organizations on this planet. [Redacted]

[The_Admiral]

Deep existential despair is hitting me more than it used to at this board. Hm.

[IceCap]

Deep existential despair is hitting me more than it used to at this board. Hm.

It is rather disheartening, isn't it?

[Redacted] I know hundreds of Native Americans who went to my high school decked out in Fighting Sioux attire with no intention of even going to UND. You know why? Because that name and they logo made them :censored:ing proud of who they are. [Redacted] [Redacted] The NCAA is one of the most corrupt organizations on this planet. [Redacted]

No, you're the one failing at reading comprehension, so I'll break it down for you.

The NCAA said the University of North Dakota had to get permission from both Sioux tribes that use the Sioux name. The University of North Dakota failed in this endeavour. Therefore they have to change the name.

Now please stop. You're coming off as an angry, irrational fan who can't accept that his university can't use the name of a people without their consent while also taking money from a known neo-Nazi to build a hockey rink. It's the year 2011. Sometimes you just have to change with the times.

[Gothamite]

Deep existential despair is hitting me more than it used to at this board. Hm.

It is rather disheartening, isn't it?

2011 has been a rough year. Here's to 2012.

[gosioux76]

The issue isn't that the name could be turned into an offensive slur, but that many Native Americans already consider the name itself an offensive slur.

One thing has absolutely nothing to do with the other. "Breathing is important, so why are you wasting valuable breathing time eating, sleeping or walking?"

Sorry, I think you're wrong on both points. Sioux doesn't have a negative connotation. The name was Sioux, and even with "fighting" as a prefix, I don't think the actual name offended Indians as much as the fact that they didn't want the school to use their name. Semantics, but this isn't a case like the Redskins. I don't think anyone would consider the term "fighting Sioux" a racial slur.

This isn't entirely true.

When this issue rekindled in the late '90s, I remember hearing name-change advocates, including several Native Americans, claim that "Sioux" is derived from the hybrid French-Chippewa term "Nadowessioux," which loosely translates into 'little snake' or 'serpent.'

As such, I heard a lot of American Indians say they don't consider themselves Sioux, preferring to instead identify with their specific band of the Sioux nation, whether it be Lakota, Nakota or Dakota.

The whole Sioux-means-snake argument, best I can tell, is still an unsettled debate. And far be it from me to know whether it's a widely held belief within regional tribes. But the perception still exists, so it's not easy to make the claim that the name doesn't have a negative connotation.

[IceCap]

Deep existential despair is hitting me more than it used to at this board. Hm.

It is rather disheartening, isn't it?

2011 has been a rough year. Here's to 2012.

Here here.

[TheOldRoman]

This isn't entirely true.

When this issue rekindled in the late '90s, I remember hearing name-change advocates, including several Native Americans, claim that "Sioux" is derived from the hybrid French-Chippewa term "Nadowessioux," which loosely translates into 'little snake' or 'serpent.'

As such, I heard a lot of American Indians say they don't consider themselves Sioux, preferring to instead identify with their specific band of the Sioux nation, whether it be Lakota, Nakota or Dakota.

The whole Sioux-means-snake argument, best I can tell, is still an unsettled debate. And far be it from me to know whether it's a widely held belief within regional tribes. But the perception still exists, so it's not easy to make the claim that the name doesn't have a negative connotation.

Wow. The more you know...

[Gothamite]

Interesting. I didn't know any of that. Thanks!

[Perfect Zero]

This isn't entirely true.

When this issue rekindled in the late '90s, I remember hearing name-change advocates, including several Native Americans, claim that "Sioux" is derived from the hybrid French-Chippewa term "Nadowessioux," which loosely translates into 'little snake' or 'serpent.'

As such, I heard a lot of American Indians say they don't consider themselves Sioux, preferring to instead identify with their specific band of the Sioux nation, whether it be Lakota, Nakota or Dakota.

The whole Sioux-means-snake argument, best I can tell, is still an unsettled debate. And far be it from me to know whether it's a widely held belief within regional tribes. But the perception still exists, so it's not easy to make the claim that the name doesn't have a negative connotation.

Makes you wonder if they could get with one of the Dakota tribes and come up with the Fightin' Dakotans or something like that. The -kota ending kinda creates an easy to say rhyme with the word "Fightin'"

[-kj]

A quick mod reminder: Please keep this topic to a low boil. It's a historically-volatile subject, and we don't need yet another round of screaming and name calling like children on a playground. We're supposed to be adults here.

[october23sp]

Deep existential despair is hitting me more than it used to at this board. Hm.

It is rather disheartening, isn't it?

[Redacted] I know hundreds of Native Americans who went to my high school decked out in Fighting Sioux attire with no intention of even going to UND. You know why? Because that name and they logo made them :censored:ing proud of who they are. [Redacted] [Redacted] The NCAA is one of the most corrupt organizations on this planet. [Redacted]

No, you're the one failing at reading comprehension, so I'll break it down for you.

The NCAA said the University of North Dakota had to get permission from both Sioux tribes that use the Sioux name. The University of North Dakota failed in this endeavour. Therefore they have to change the name.

Now please stop. You're coming off as an angry, irrational fan who can't accept that his university can't use the name of a people without their consent while also taking money from a known neo-Nazi to build a hockey rink. It's the year 2011. Sometimes you just have to change with the times.

I know what the situation is. And they got permission from one of the tribes and the other tribe voted on it and the people voted the name was fine but the leaders of the tribe still said no to it. I don't even go to that school, however I live in the state and I know a hell of a lot more about the situation than you do. If the NCAA wasn't the biggest group of pigs I wouldn't have as big a problem with it, but how they can be the ones to decide is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard.

[IceCap]

They're the ones who decide it because it's their private organization. When you run a private organization you get to set the rules, and likewise you get to force members who voluntarily opted into your organization to follow those rules.

As for the tribes, one tribe said yes and the second tribe, for whatever reason, refused to vote on it. Regardless of the specifics, UND failed to get approval to use the Sioux name from the second tribe. Therefore they don't get to use the name. That's just how it works.

[ctk]

i get the "private group" argument that several people are making, but i think it's a bs excuse. how fair is it to arbitrarily (and the ncaa is doing this very arbitrarily) decide that for decades it had no stance on school names and logos but then all of a sudden decide to outlaw them or force schools for the permission of tribes to use the names? i'm absolutely certain that there are seminole tribes who do not approve florida state using that name as well as chippewas who don't like central michigan using that name.

fsu and central michigan are really the main reasons why i don't give any credibility to the arbitrary decision of letting the tribes decide if they like the name or not, because there are some tribes not located in the area who have opinions not heard. i believe there was a seminole tribe in either oklahoma or new mexico who voted against fsu using the name. aren't they seminoles? shouldn't their rights be considered? so in north dakota one tribe said yes. the other tribe had no vote. no vote does NOT mean no. no vote could mean that the tribe didn't find the issue worthy of voting on or they have no opinion either way. und requested the opinions of these tribes and got an affirmative from one and none from the other. north dakota should continue to use the name until this tribe actually holds a vote. for decades neither tribe has posed an opposition to this. until we know the positions of both tribes on the record it is safe to assume that they had no problems with it.

"private group" and "volunteer organization" only is a valid defense when there is another organization that is equal to another. and when this same "private group" actively looks away from enforcing its own rules when rules were broken (like allowing the osu 5 to play in the sugar bowl this year and then suspending them for games next year) or declares that some logos and team names are offensive, but others are not (see my first post in this thread) it has no authority (moral or otherwise) to tell anyone anything and expect to be taken seriously.

the ncaa is to amateur athletics and scholarship like nascar's nationwide series is about training future drivers and the sprint series is all about racing. they need to come clean and state that their actions have only been about the MONEY explicitly, it will reduce the backlash they so rightfully deserve at this point.