Texas A&M leaving the Big 12

[rams80]

You're not saying anything I disagree with. To reiterate, Syracuse is a close enough fit and has historically been decent enough in both football and basketball that I would be fine with adding them. I also agree though that going after New York period is a fool's errand along the lines of adding DePaul to get Chicago.

My preferred 4 for a 16 team Big Ten remains Kansas, Missouri, Pitt, and Syracuse. At this point I'd rather just tell the Irish to get bent or try to "shaken the eggos" in the MAC or some other league that is willing to put up with them.

[rvrdgsfn]

Let's add some fuel to the already roaring fire....

Oklahoma is now debating on their Big 12 future.

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/6923495/oklahoma-sooners-president-david-boren-says-school-interest-multiple-conferences

[GFB]

Kansas, K-State and Missouri would be Big-bound then. At least, I think so.

Hopefully 1 and 3. Not sure about 2.

And speaking as a fan of the Big 10, I don't ever want to see Rutgers to join the Conference. It's not worth it. They don't have the fanbase, are not a cultural fit, and sooner or later the way cable deals are arranged is going to changed to a completely a la carte format-rendering the whole "We must get New York" thing moot.

Plus, even though it's a metro a region of 10+ million people, New Yorkers don't give a about college football. It's never going to happen.

Football wise, Schiano is by far the Big East coast with the longest tenure, yet he has failed to capitalized on is best seasons which were 2006-08.

New Yorkers may not care, but the cable stations along with Big Ten/Big XII alumni which can add 10-40 cents more on a cable bill on the basic package may care. BTN carriage means more money which the conference will receive. If the BTN is in an area with a team, it gets more money from cable operators. If one has DirecTV, the share gets larger if you are within a Big Ten media market.

That's awesome at present, but you missed the point about a la carte TV channel packages. What Big Ten alumni base exists is not nearly as large as the base of locals who would rather not spend money to watch college sports.

How would you feel about adding Syracuse? Far better academics, an elite basketball program, and a storied football program which is very fixable if they can get on the Big Ten schedule. Plus, you would get your foot in the New York media market.

Although we'd be attractive to the Big Ten, dropping out of the AAU aside (Syracuse focuses more on undergrad than grad outside of the Maxwell Public Affairs schools so research isn't really our big thing, which is partly why we're out of that. The other part is because Chancy Nancy is trying to ruin our ranking every year through accepting half the state of Massachusetts ever since UMass went down the drain as well as half of California but that's another story for another day), I feel I'd rather go to the ACC if we can't stay in the Big East.

The Big Ten does bring the NYC market to them (to an extent. Barely anyone cares about college football in NYC, more on this re: Rutgers later), and aside from being a private school fits into their academic profile well being a tier 1 school. The basketball program's really the big get out of it and the football program's been on the upswing. That being said, Syracuse screams ACC school if you eliminate the Big East out of the equation. There's way more private schools in the ACC with schools having a similar number of students as SU. Not to mention it's still an academic fit. On top of that, what's Syracuse's strengths? Basketball, Men's Lacrosse, and Field Hockey. You know what the ACC's strength's are? Yep, those three sports as well. Plus the fact SU was all but in the ACC back in the raid of '04 before the VA legislature stepped in, and Boston College arguably brings a better football rivalry than anything found in the Big East (maybe except for WVU, but that's been one-sided until last year. Rutgers has only been a relevant rivalry since G-Rob screwed things up). Georgetown? Well, we're only playing them once this year, so we can always go non-conference. It'll be the same as the Big East in this day and age. And don't be surprised if UConn would come over in a package deal, too, and if worse comes to worse with Boeheim and Calhoun's relationship that'll be a non-conference game every year. So if the ACC expands or reacts to an SEC raid, I can see Syracuse making the leap to the ACC before any leap to the Big Ten.

Now as for Rutgers... Well, yeah the New York market and being a land-grant public school helps its Big Ten chances. But the fact is Rutgers' strong point is football. And after last year's 4-8 effort, that's not even much of a strong point anymore. The truth of the matter is the NYC area only warms itself up to two college sports- basketball and lacrosse. Being from Long Island, the Rutgers fanbase is almost non-existent. It does exist in New Jersey, but even there come basketball season they have stiff fanbase competition from Seton Hall (the greatest Big East rivalry according to Pat Forde ). Even in football you have the traditionalists/old people rooting for Princeton like-it's-the-1960s-and-think-Rutgers-is-still-a-perrenial-2-10-team smack dab in Rutgers' Central Jersey footprint and even the Jersey Shore provides some competition with Monmouth Miles Austin Miles Austin Miles Austin. And personally having been to Rutgers for a Cuse-RU game, the Syracuse fanbase was pretty half and half with Rutgers (granted you can say the same thing, or even outnumbering, with any other NYC area school). I'd even argue that Penn State and UConn have more influence in the NYC market than Rutgers. The Big Ten I think would be better off going for Pitt. It's in Big Ten territory, but all things considered even without adding a new market it has better academics, a better football tradition than "HEY! YOU GUYS! We won the first ever college football game at our campus!!" and "Remember that year we made the Texas Bowl?", and much better basketball. That's not to say Rutgers is bad academically or from a market standpoint, but I just don't think it's in the Big Ten's interest to go after them.

Alrighty, long-winded analysis complete. Carry on

No, that was insightful. It seems like the ACC would be a good fit for you guys. And I'm on board with you in regards to the whole Rutgers thing.

[GFB]

You're not saying anything I disagree with. To reiterate, Syracuse is a close enough fit and has historically been decent enough in both football and basketball that I would be fine with adding them. I also agree though that going after New York period is a fool's errand along the lines of adding DePaul to get Chicago.

My preferred 4 for a 16 team Big Ten remains Kansas, Missouri, Pitt, and Syracuse. At this point I'd rather just tell the Irish to get bent or try to "shaken the eggos" in the MAC or some other league that is willing to put up with them.

I think they deserve one last chance to get off their high horse. I was reading some article that suggested if the Big Ten went ahead and took one or two of the Big East teams, they could force ND's hand because of the lack of scheduling for ND's other sports teams. Now I don't know how plausible that is, but with the new formation of the Big Ten hockey league, ND to the conference makes more sense now than ever.

If they don't join in the next 2-3 years (when all this conference jumping goes down), I agree with you. F them. Have fun playing the Navys and the Tulsas of the world.

[dfwabel]

YES! Patterson goes to a mock turtleneck!

[rams80]

Notre Dame and their diva attitude has had 3 chances. One was in 1999 when they turned down the invitation. The second was in 2003 when they broke off joining at the last minute, and the third was last year.

They're done. If they want to exult in their independence, let them.

[RyanMcD29]

Kansas, K-State and Missouri would be Big-bound then. At least, I think so.

Hopefully 1 and 3. Not sure about 2.

And speaking as a fan of the Big 10, I don't ever want to see Rutgers to join the Conference. It's not worth it. They don't have the fanbase, are not a cultural fit, and sooner or later the way cable deals are arranged is going to changed to a completely a la carte format-rendering the whole "We must get New York" thing moot.

Plus, even though it's a metro a region of 10+ million people, New Yorkers don't give a about college football. It's never going to happen.

Football wise, Schiano is by far the Big East coast with the longest tenure, yet he has failed to capitalized on is best seasons which were 2006-08.

New Yorkers may not care, but the cable stations along with Big Ten/Big XII alumni which can add 10-40 cents more on a cable bill on the basic package may care. BTN carriage means more money which the conference will receive. If the BTN is in an area with a team, it gets more money from cable operators. If one has DirecTV, the share gets larger if you are within a Big Ten media market.

That's awesome at present, but you missed the point about a la carte TV channel packages. What Big Ten alumni base exists is not nearly as large as the base of locals who would rather not spend money to watch college sports.

How would you feel about adding Syracuse? Far better academics, an elite basketball program, and a storied football program which is very fixable if they can get on the Big Ten schedule. Plus, you would get your foot in the New York media market.

Although we'd be attractive to the Big Ten, dropping out of the AAU aside (Syracuse focuses more on undergrad than grad outside of the Maxwell Public Affairs schools so research isn't really our big thing, which is partly why we're out of that. The other part is because Chancy Nancy is trying to ruin our ranking every year through accepting half the state of Massachusetts ever since UMass went down the drain as well as half of California but that's another story for another day), I feel I'd rather go to the ACC if we can't stay in the Big East.

The Big Ten does bring the NYC market to them (to an extent. Barely anyone cares about college football in NYC, more on this re: Rutgers later), and aside from being a private school fits into their academic profile well being a tier 1 school. The basketball program's really the big get out of it and the football program's been on the upswing. That being said, Syracuse screams ACC school if you eliminate the Big East out of the equation. There's way more private schools in the ACC with schools having a similar number of students as SU. Not to mention it's still an academic fit. On top of that, what's Syracuse's strengths? Basketball, Men's Lacrosse, and Field Hockey. You know what the ACC's strength's are? Yep, those three sports as well. Plus the fact SU was all but in the ACC back in the raid of '04 before the VA legislature stepped in, and Boston College arguably brings a better football rivalry than anything found in the Big East (maybe except for WVU, but that's been one-sided until last year. Rutgers has only been a relevant rivalry since G-Rob screwed things up). Georgetown? Well, we're only playing them once this year, so we can always go non-conference. It'll be the same as the Big East in this day and age. And don't be surprised if UConn would come over in a package deal, too, and if worse comes to worse with Boeheim and Calhoun's relationship that'll be a non-conference game every year. So if the ACC expands or reacts to an SEC raid, I can see Syracuse making the leap to the ACC before any leap to the Big Ten.

Now as for Rutgers... Well, yeah the New York market and being a land-grant public school helps its Big Ten chances. But the fact is Rutgers' strong point is football. And after last year's 4-8 effort, that's not even much of a strong point anymore. The truth of the matter is the NYC area only warms itself up to two college sports- basketball and lacrosse. Being from Long Island, the Rutgers fanbase is almost non-existent. It does exist in New Jersey, but even there come basketball season they have stiff fanbase competition from Seton Hall (the greatest Big East rivalry according to Pat Forde ). Even in football you have the traditionalists/old people rooting for Princeton like-it's-the-1960s-and-think-Rutgers-is-still-a-perrenial-2-10-team smack dab in Rutgers' Central Jersey footprint and even the Jersey Shore provides some competition with Monmouth Miles Austin Miles Austin Miles Austin. And personally having been to Rutgers for a Cuse-RU game, the Syracuse fanbase was pretty half and half with Rutgers (granted you can say the same thing, or even outnumbering, with any other NYC area school). I'd even argue that Penn State and UConn have more influence in the NYC market than Rutgers. The Big Ten I think would be better off going for Pitt. It's in Big Ten territory, but all things considered even without adding a new market it has better academics, a better football tradition than "HEY! YOU GUYS! We won the first ever college football game at our campus!!" and "Remember that year we made the Texas Bowl?", and much better basketball. That's not to say Rutgers is bad academically or from a market standpoint, but I just don't think it's in the Big Ten's interest to go after them.

Alrighty, long-winded analysis complete. Carry on

No, that was insightful. It seems like the ACC would be a good fit for you guys. And I'm on board with you in regards to the whole Rutgers thing.

Thanks, glad it provided some good insight.

I just realized I forgot to point out St. John's adds another wrench to the Rutgers "control of the NYC market" problem. In terms of basketball, not only is the women's team more popular than the men's at RU, but I wouldn't doubt if Seton Hall and St. John's completely trump the Scarlet Knights. Especially with the resurgence the Red Storm have gone through with Lavin at the helm. Hell, I think they might be in a direct competition with Princeton basketball, which would be like Villanova competing with UPenn (well, Big 5 hoops is a different animal, bad example) or Syracuse with Cornell, with the success of both programs (HINT: Rutgers didn't make the top 25 in the late 90s, never mind make an NCAA Tournament in years). And speaking of basketball success, hell, St. Peter's has Rutgers beat with that bid this year

Long story short, Rutgers would expand the Big Ten footprint to NYC, but it won't bring them much. Penn State might be doing enough for the NYC market even without RU.

[BBTV]

Yes, Big 5 or City 6 hoops is different. Villanova and Penn certainly do not compete with each other.

Why does everyone get upset about Notre Dame not wanting to join a league? If they are somehow able to put together a decent schedule so that they can be fairly evaluated when it comes bowl time, what does it matter?

[DDR]

My preferred 4 for the B1G would have to be:

1. Notre Dame. Yes, they've waffled and stood the Big Ten up before. Yes, they haven't been an elite program in several years. But they're still ND, and in Big Ten country are a big deal. They'd bring in revenue not just with TV ratings and whatnot, but by upping attendance at schools that don't sell out every game. And ND is an obvious academic fit.

2. Missouri. Provides a solid academic school and respectable programs in both major sports. And serves as a geographic gateway to my next two schools:

3. Either: Texas/Oklahoma OR Oklahoma/Oklahoma State. Texas provides the best academic fit and best overall athletic bang for the buck. But they have their own network and I'm not sure what sort of issue that brings up with regards to the Big Ten Network. Oklahoma would be the lowest rated academic school in the conference, but is still a solid academic institution. And they bring an elite football program with a widespread fan base. Oklahoma St. would be only if they really are a "package deal" with Oklahoma.

And if any of the above fails:

6. Pitt

7. Syracuse

8. Kansas

9. Don't expand further

[vicfurth]

Yes, Big 5 or City 6 hoops is different. Villanova and Penn certainly do not compete with each other.

Why does everyone get upset about Notre Dame not wanting to join a league? If they are somehow able to put together a decent schedule so that they can be fairly evaluated when it comes bowl time, what does it matter?

ND is like that blonde in college:

Everyone wants her but cant have her. Therefore, they hate said blonde. However, once the blonde finally finds somebody (ND finds a conference), both the Irish and that conference will be hated more.

[rams80]

Texas Longhorns Information Minister: Folks had better start lawyering up.

[jkrdevil]

I grew up in NJ and up until Rutgers had that one fluke year (re: somehow got Ray Rice to go there) the only place you could find Rutgers merchandise was the Rutgers bookstore. A lot of people in New Jersey went to Rutgers, but not many have become fans given how poorly they historically have fared in sports. There has been a bit of a boost since the Ray Rice era, but a couple more poor seasons and it is a ghost town again.

Like other have said NJ and New York aren't big college areas. The pro sports have a long entrenched there. I would include college basketball in there as well. St. Johns in their bounce back year under Steve Lavin averaged only 11,000 at the Garden (The Liberty has out drawn them) and that was their highest attendance in years. Seton Hall has to curtain off the upper deck at the Prudential Center. The only reason why Big Ten would even think about adding Rutgers is because they can charge more in NJ for the Big Ten network if a team is there and there is a large Penn St. (and other B10 schools) in the area. Still this is the same area where operators (Cablevision) pulled the Yes Network for a year when it first launched. And the Yankees are by far the most popular team in the area.

With the developments with the Big 12 and ACC I don't think Rutgers is a candidate for Big Ten expansion. They will look east and south. I think the Big Ten maybe waiting to see what the SEC does for their 14, 15, 16 teams. If they don't take FSU because of the Florida, Georgia, South Carolina voting block then I think the Big Ten will try to snatch FSU and Georgia Tech. Gets the Big Ten Network in at higher rates in Georgia (Atlanta) and Florida, the 4th most populous state in the country. Not to mention it gives them a tent pole in Florida for recruiting. Then they fill out for 16 by adding two of Maryland, Virginia, Syracuse to get into those markets and give Penn St. some rivals they have been begging for.

[DaRadniz29]

If it wasn't for recruiting/revenue Florida wouldn't have anything against letting Florida State/Miami/GA Tech in. Same goes for Georgia and allowing GA Tech and South Carolina letting in Clemson. While it would be nice competition wise as it might make the SEC even stronger to an extent it could also backfire and create a recruiting gridlock. Also for simplistic sense if Texas A&M is in the SEC next season, you'd know they'd go after at least one other team the SEC East, thought more likely they'll try 14 teams and possibly 16. If that happens, I'm not sure where Missouri ends up. They would do great for the SEC adding Missouri to the footprint, but at the same time, they're kind of on the border of the Big "10" or soon to be "B16".

Besides if Missouri enters the SEC that would be at least 3 teams in the SEC West with the Tigers nickname.

Let's play a little... Say Texas A&M's legal woes are resolved and they fully accept the SEC invitation. They are placed in the SEC West. That gives the WEST

-Auburn

- LSU

-Alabama

- Arkansas

-Mississippi

-Mississippi State

- Texas A&M

With only six in the SEC East

-Florida

-Georgia

-Tennessee

- Kentucky

- South Carolina

- Vanderbilt

Now here are teams to look at and potentially adding:

-Louisville

First, yes I know UK would probably try to block it. However they are the least of the teams to try and block and in-state rival. Florida has a better chance at blocking FSU. UK can try but they're drawing thin on reasons. While a negative could be recruiting, a positive and big one at that is the big in-state rivalry in all sports, football included, but especially in basketball. The revenue of the two of them playing in the same conference would do one of two things. Make them games a cash cow for the schools and ratings monster for the SEC or it they will cancel each other out and the schools will fade into the shadows of the SEC.

-Virginia Tech

VA Tech knows they can win championships in the ACC. They could put up a fight in the SEC, but I don't think they'd be a yearly contender as they seem to be in the ACC.

-Virginia

Not likely to happen, especially if VT goes, unless VT decides that they want one school pound on every year.

-West Virginia

The most likely candidate. They are one of the best and most passionate schools in the big east. They've got solid football and basketball programs and it extends the SEC footprint. There are a few issues with regards to annual rivalries: vs Pitt and Marshall, but I'm sure the the schools can work something out.

-Maryland

Might surprise some people because the Terps are somewhat considered underachievers in the ACC, though sometimes they find a way to hand around with the Florida States, Miami's and Virginia Tech's.

So who goes? Here's my pick for the SEC 16

SEC WEST

-Alabama

-Auburn

-Arkansas

-LSU

-Ole Miss

-Mississippi State

-Texas A&M

-Missouri/Louisville

I really can't pick. If the SEC expands to sixteen, I really think the Big Ten reconsiders Missouri. That leaves Louisville. Can Kentucky keep them out or not?

SEC EAST

-Florida

-Georgia

-Tennessee

-Vanderbilt

-Kentucky

-South Carolina

-Virginia Tech

- Virginia

If VT goes, UVA comes with them. I don't think the state of Virginia would accept without both schools.

Clemson and GA Tech, along with FSU stay in the ACC. There's also a chance the ACC will pine of VT to get them to stay. But it's ultimately up to VT what they want to if the SEC comes calling.

West Virginia is a good option, but they'd more than likely have to put in the SEC since they are East of Kentucky and the Wildcats are in the SEC East. Is putting WEST Virginia in the EAST division not going to confuse people?

Though for WVU it's really a matter of how Southeast you want to be or if the SEC really cares not on it's geographical sense. Morgantown is a great great collegetown and would be a great fit in the SEC, all directional joking aside

[oddball]

I love how everyone wants Notre Dame to join a conference, but can't see that except for their name, they don't bring much to the table in football which is why they want them. Notre Dame's name is based off of history and long ago history. The last 20 years they really haven't done much in the college football world. Sure they'll have a few good years, and then they are just another 8-4 team.

As far as all these lawsuits coming because Texas A&M is leaving, I find it interesting that A&M is the bad guy in all of this. Let's call a spade a spade and point out that it's not A&M that has a huge television network with ESPN, it's Texas. I also find it interesting the little brother syndrome being developed Baylor and whomever else wants to sue. So they let Nebraska and Colorado leave and there were no lawsuits, but Texas A&M leaves after the conference gives its blessing and now Baylor and whomever else are threatening lawsuits? I thought this was a free country. I thought you could do as you please. There's a payout that A&M will have to pay, but I can't believe the childishness coming out of the Big 12. Is basically the fact that Baylor, Texas Tech, Iowa State, Kansas, Kansas State, and Missouri are coming to the conclusion that they are really just a bunch of Mountain West/WAC type programs and once Oklahoma, Texas, and A&M leave they won't be playing with the big boys anymore? Sure these programs have some good years, but mainly they have been cannon fodder for Texas, Texas A&M, Colorado, and Nebraska for the last 30 years or so. I leave Oklahoma State out of this mix because we all know they will piggy back off of whatever Oklahoma does, but they are also just football cannon fodder. If Baylor and the rest of the Big 12 schools want to get pissed at someone, get pissed at the Texas Longhorns (New York Yankees) and their Longhorn (YES) network that will give them millions of dollars and exposure the rest of the conference won't get. It's the moronic other members that allowed Texas to have it's own network that has really destroyed the league. The spoiled children of Texas get what they want (their network) and it's somehow Texas A&M's fault? The logic mystifies me.

[HedleyLamarr]

The only reason why Baylor's considering a lawsuit is because they know they're screwed once the Big XII dissolves, so they're hoping to prolong the inevitable and hope the Big XII can hash something together at the last minute.

[vicfurth]

I don't think Baylor is the only one. However, I do find it ironic that the main schools spearheading this:

--Baylor

--Iowa State

--Kansas

Are the football schools that nobody wants. One could make a case for wanting any of the other seven schools, but as has been said before, Baylor was never really worthy of a Big XII spot in the first place (should've been TCU).

I read another thing that a local columnist brought up in today's paper. Whenever the Southwest Conference fizzled, schools like TCU, SMU, or Rice never balked or blew up or sued anyone. Bad form on Baylor's part.

Lastly, I know that people are freaking out that old rivalries may be thrown by the wayside, but we all know that an OU/UT or A&M/UT rivalry will never be disbanded. Inter-conference rivalries work just fine and aren't tarnished because they don't "mean something."

[Seadragon76]

I don't think Baylor is the only one. However, I do find it ironic that the main schools spearheading this:

--Baylor

--Iowa State

--Kansas

Are the football schools that nobody wants. One could make a case for wanting any of the other seven schools, but as has been said before, Baylor was never really worthy of a Big XII spot in the first place (should've been TCU).

I read another thing that a local columnist brought up in today's paper. Whenever the Southwest Conference fizzled, schools like TCU, SMU, or Rice never balked or blew up or sued anyone. Bad form on Baylor's part.

Lastly, I know that people are freaking out that old rivalries may be thrown by the wayside, but we all know that an OU/UT or A&M/UT rivalry will never be disbanded. Inter-conference rivalries work just fine and aren't tarnished because they don't "mean something."

See, I knew Iowa State was involved in some way, shape or form. I know the Cyclones have a lot riding on the Big 12 staying together and if the fallout means the Big 12 is dissolved, then Iowa State falls out alongside Baylor, Kansas and so forth.

Problem is, what can any of these schools do? It's not like anyone really wants them.

[NatsFan2004]

See, I knew Iowa State was involved in some way, shape or form. I know the Cyclones have a lot riding on the Big 12 staying together and if the fallout means the Big 12 is dissolved, then Iowa State falls out alongside Baylor, Kansas and so forth.

Problem is, what can any of these schools do? It's not like anyone really wants them.

Honestly, I think these schools are Conference USA-bound if the Big 12 blows up. Maybe the Big East would take one or two, but not all 5 (Baylor, Kansas, KSU, I-State and Texas Tech).

[thespleenenator]

See, I knew Iowa State was involved in some way, shape or form. I know the Cyclones have a lot riding on the Big 12 staying together and if the fallout means the Big 12 is dissolved, then Iowa State falls out alongside Baylor, Kansas and so forth.

Problem is, what can any of these schools do? It's not like anyone really wants them.

Honestly, I think these schools are Conference USA-bound if the Big 12 blows up. Maybe the Big East would take one or two, but not all 5 (Baylor, Kansas, KSU, I-State and Texas Tech).

Kansas, K-State, and TT are going to be grabbed by somebody. They're too big to go to a non BCS conference.

[DCDuck]

Quick, name all twelve teams in C-USA!

...

Yeah, that's what I thought. C-USA is like college athletics purgatory. Just ask anyone who was a fan of Rice or Houston since the old SWC days. No rivalries, no tradition, and absurd geographical inconsistencies. How is UTEP supposed to establish any sort of tradition or history with teams like Marshall, East Carolina or Central Florida?