Crosby vs. Ovechkin

[HedleyLamarr]

I wouldn't exactly call Semin or Backstrom "stars".

Joe Thornton piggybacked Cheechoo to a 50+ goal season and no one refers to Cheechoo as a star....

Your example just showed how a star linemate will boost your stats, right?

If average 1st liner ----> Thornton boosts him up that high, then think about what Dupuis + Kunitz ----> 2 Average 1st liners would do to Crosby

Semin and Backstrom are at least average 1st liners.

You say that as if Crosby never spends any ice time (especially in offensive situations) with other gifted offensive players, especially those named Malkin, Guerin, or Gonchar.

The way the NHL inflates stats with the second assist (and doesn't offer a distinction between first and second assists) helps in Crosby's favor, as he does have Ovechkin beat in playmaking across their lines. Using an argument of Crosby's one-half season wonder (no way he was going to keep up that pace) against Ovechkin's full season (when Washington became more of a defensive-minded team) isn't a good argument.

To settle this debate, put yourself in a defenseman's skates and ask yourself one question: In a one-on-one situation, who do you not want to be squaring off against?

[Don]

Its a dumb debate because they are 2 completely different players with 2 different roles to fill. Crosby is a helluva player, so is Ovie in their own rights.

No, I will not give you the satisfaction of arguing with you.

[vmd9]

Nice...fat jokes. What class you have. Go listen to Mark Madden while reading Pensblog kay?

Oh and for the record I would say Malkin led them to that Cup, since, you know, he won the Conn Smythe?

He's a Pittsburgh fan what do you expect? none of them have class

Ovechkin is better, just look at the way they play the game. I've never seen anyone with the speed and goal scoring ability that Ovie has. Not to mention the guy scored a goal from his f'n back! Ovechkin has about 50 more goals, both have 6 years in the league and about the same pt total. Cups don't really matter, if you're using that argument you could say that some random guy like Stéphane Yelle is better than both because he has 2 cups. Not to mention Crosby plays for Pittsburgh, so I lose respect for him there...

[Lebda4Norris]

Caps fans, do you disagree that Crosby is better? This is kind of getting boring with nobody to argue with.

Better scorer? Possibly. Better overall player? There's more to hockey than passing and scoring. I'd say Ovie is a much better defensive player and a better enforcer than Crosby. Again, nobody has ever questioned Ovie's toughness.

Okay it's like a guy who's a 1/10 fighter vs. a 2/10 fighter. Both so low it doesn't make a difference. Sure, Ovie lays some big hits here and there but not very often.

[Lebda4Norris]

I wouldn't exactly call Semin or Backstrom "stars".

Joe Thornton piggybacked Cheechoo to a 50+ goal season and no one refers to Cheechoo as a star....

Your example just showed how a star linemate will boost your stats, right?

If average 1st liner ----> Thornton boosts him up that high, then think about what Dupuis + Kunitz ----> 2 Average 1st liners would do to Crosby

Semin and Backstrom are at least average 1st liners.

You say that as if Crosby never spends any ice time (especially in offensive situations) with other gifted offensive players, especially those named Malkin, Guerin, or Gonchar.

The way the NHL inflates stats with the second assist (and doesn't offer a distinction between first and second assists) helps in Crosby's favor, as he does have Ovechkin beat in playmaking across their lines. Using an argument of Crosby's one-half season wonder (no way he was going to keep up that pace) against Ovechkin's full season (when Washington became more of a defensive-minded team) isn't a good argument.

To settle this debate, put yourself in a defenseman's skates and ask yourself one question: In a one-on-one situation, who do you not want to be squaring off against?

He rarely takes a shift with Malkin except for on the PP.

Guerin was washed up anyway and is gone.

Gonchar is gone and was worse than Mike Green offensively.

In a 1-on-1 situation, I think Ovie is slightly better, but in a 3-on-2 situation with equal linemates, I think Crosby clearly wins.

Even if Crosby scored 1 goal in 41 games he would still outscore Ovechkin (in goals). It would be reasonable to say he would have scored another 20 at least.

[Lebda4Norris]

Nice...fat jokes. What class you have. Go listen to Mark Madden while reading Pensblog kay?

Oh and for the record I would say Malkin led them to that Cup, since, you know, he won the Conn Smythe?

He's a Pittsburgh fan what do you expect? none of them have class

Ovechkin is better, just look at the way they play the game. I've never seen anyone with the speed and goal scoring ability that Ovie has. Not to mention the guy scored a goal from his f'n back! Ovechkin has about 50 more goals, both have 6 years in the league and about the same pt total. Cups don't really matter, if you're using that argument you could say that some random guy like Stéphane Yelle is better than both because he has 2 cups. Not to mention Crosby plays for Pittsburgh, so I lose respect for him there...

I admit Cups don't mean much as a player, but you're "the guy scored a goal from his back" argument is even less relevant.

Crosby's PPG 1.39 Ovie's 1.29.

It's his fault he got drafted there?

[Lebda4Norris]

Its a dumb debate because they are 2 completely different players with 2 different roles to fill. Crosby is a helluva player, so is Ovie in their own rights.

No, I will not give you the satisfaction of arguing with you.

It's just for fun, it's not to be taken seriously.

[HedleyLamarr]

In a 1-on-1 situation, I think Ovie is slightly better, but in a 3-on-2 situation with equal linemates, I think Crosby clearly wins.

So, in other words, Crosby needs somebody alongside him for Crosby to be better than Ovechkin?

Hockey's a team sport, I get it, but your argument is akin to saying "Michael Jordan is better than Kobe Bryant because Jordan can pass the ball to someone else for them to score.". I'm not buying that reasoning.

When assessing that X-player is better than Y-player, it's kind of pivotal that X-player be better in a man-vs-man situation than Y-player in a similar situation.

[Lebda4Norris]

In a 1-on-1 situation, I think Ovie is slightly better, but in a 3-on-2 situation with equal linemates, I think Crosby clearly wins.

So, in other words, Crosby needs somebody alongside him for Crosby to be better than Ovechkin?

Hockey's a team sport, I get it, but your argument is akin to saying "Michael Jordan is better than Kobe Bryant because Jordan can pass the ball to someone else for them to score.". I'm not buying that reasoning.

When assessing that X-player is better than Y-player, it's kind of pivotal that X-player be better in a man-vs-man situation than Y-player in a similar situation.

I get your point, but hockey's a team sport.

Also, what do you think Ovie's career PPG would be playing with Dupuis and Kunitz? Please, tell me.

Crosby might be better 1-on-1. It's hard to tell because they've never been on equal footing. You could just as easily say Ovie needs Backstrom to feed him.

[HedleyLamarr]

PPG isn't an entirely honest stat to begin with, especially when there's the ability to award two assists for every goal. Take away the secondary assist, and we'll have a far better read on career PPG.

Assists are dependent on goals being scored....otherwise, they just become passes. Assists are just a nice way of saying, "The goalscorer did the work that matters for keeping score, but gimme some credit so I can negociate a better contract when I become a free agent!"

When making a comparison to decide which is the better player, a huge factor in the debate should be that the player in question be better than the other in a 1-on-1 situation, as the debate is "player vs. player", not "player's line vs. player's line".

[Lebda4Norris]

PPG isn't an entirely honest stat to begin with, especially when there's the ability to award two assists for every goal. Take away the secondary assist, and we'll have a far better read on career PPG.

Assists are dependent on goals being scored....otherwise, they just become passes. Assists are just a nice way of saying, "The goalscorer did the work that matters for keeping score, but gimme some credit so I can negociate a better contract when I become a free agent!"

When making a comparison to decide which is the better player, a huge factor in the debate should be that the player in question be better than the other in a 1-on-1 situation, as the debate is "player vs. player", not "player's line vs. player's line".

I understand that and I agree, but Ovie's goal stats will be padded thanks to Backstrom.

[HedleyLamarr]

Whereas all of Crosby's stats got no assistance whatsoever from Malkin?

Your argument....and logic....is dwindling. If you're going to debate which player's better, you simply can't keep resorting to using the "hockey's a team sport" argument.

[oddball]

You can argue all you want about who's a better player, they are both great players. Yet, in the end my gut tells me it will be Ovechkin. Why? I just have this gut feeling that Crosby will never step foot on the ice due to his concussion syndrome. With Marc Savard being ruled out this year and more than likely his career over, I see the same with Crosby. If you can't see the clues, just look at Ian Laperriere and look at Savard. I hate to say this but my gut says Crosby's done forever.

[Lebda4Norris]

Not nearly as much as Ovie got.

You said PPG is a misleading stat because of second assists but even if you eliminated them I still don't think Ovie would be ahead.

Another thing to mention is that Crosby's recent production has been better than Ovie's. Even if you think his half-season this year was a fluke, he put up many points (and goals) last year too.

[The_Admiral]

Assists are just a nice way of saying, "The goalscorer did the work that matters for keeping score, but gimme some credit so I can negociate a better contract when I become a free agent!"

They also make sure that playmakers get credit for someone else tipping in a rebound. Let's be fair.

Also, how did a Lebda4Norris thread get serious? It began as some message board form of high-concept performance art and went completely on the rails.

[BrySmalls]

Ovechkin =/= Crosby, however:

Ovechkin OR Crosby >>>>>>> Lebda.

[Milo Meningocele]

Has anyone noticed that Lebda's sig is identical to Mockba's? Troll.

[Lebda4Norris]

Assists are just a nice way of saying, "The goalscorer did the work that matters for keeping score, but gimme some credit so I can negociate a better contract when I become a free agent!"

They also make sure that playmakers get credit for someone else tipping in a rebound. Let's be fair.

Also, how did a Lebda4Norris thread get serious? It began as some message board form of high-concept performance art and went completely on the rails.

I never posted any concepts!

And what's so ridiculous about saying Croz > Ovie? Even if you disagree, it's at least a valid argument.

[Milo Meningocele]

Assists are just a nice way of saying, "The goalscorer did the work that matters for keeping score, but gimme some credit so I can negociate a better contract when I become a free agent!"

They also make sure that playmakers get credit for someone else tipping in a rebound. Let's be fair.

Also, how did a Lebda4Norris thread get serious? It began as some message board form of high-concept performance art and went completely on the rails.

I never posted any concepts!

And what's so ridiculous about saying Croz > Ovie? Even if you disagree, it's at least a valid argument.

Why is your sig identical to Mockba's?

[crashcarson15]

Nice...fat jokes. What class you have. Go listen to Mark Madden while reading Pensblog kay?

Oh and for the record I would say Malkin led them to that Cup, since, you know, he won the Conn Smythe?

He's a Pittsburgh fan what do you expect? none of them have class

Ovechkin is better, just look at the way they play the game. I've never seen anyone with the speed and goal scoring ability that Ovie has. Not to mention the guy scored a goal from his f'n back! Ovechkin has about 50 more goals, both have 6 years in the league and about the same pt total. Cups don't really matter, if you're using that argument you could say that some random guy like Stéphane Yelle is better than both because he has 2 cups. Not to mention Crosby plays for Pittsburgh, so I lose respect for him there...

Please, no more bitching about Pittsburgh fans.