Say it ain't so, Joe

[CS85]

Paterno hasnt had any true influence on coaching or recruiting in the past 15 years and they attract big time recruits and win on a regular basis. While i expect the program to have an alabama type slump, this program is most certainly not dead in the water as most of you believe. Urban Meyer bought property in Boalsburg, Just outside of state college on monday. Im not sayin. Im just sayin haha (thats the only positive thing i can muster the strength to write today)

From everything I've heard from various penn st peeps is that Paterno circa 98/2002 was as sharp as a tack, defied his age, and was a football titan despite being up there in years. He wasn't the half-whispering sad shuffling bag of bones he is today. I'd fully expect Paterno to know every intricate detail surrounding his football program near the time this was coming to light. The fact that he heard firsthand from McQueary and watched as the execs he told did the bare minimum is damning. There shouldn't be any parade, there shouldn't be any planned exit for Paterno at the end of the year with a big ceremony.

He should be in police custody with the rest of the suits that allowed this to happen being taken under oath to answer questions. Why? Why was this allowed to happen? What the hell is wrong with the people on this planet?

you obviously didnt read the entire post...

not once did i say he SHOULDNT go. The ridicule is unwarranted. Im not calling for parades or celebrations. The fact that paterno has to take the fall for everyone else is a shame but if its what needs to be done im all for it.

And that fact that uoy classify joe in with the university "suits" shows me how much you actually know about how things work at PSU. He doesnt run the university like all of you think

I wasn't directing my statements about his retirement parade at you, but they're handling this situation so delicately that it's irresponsible. It would certainly be a shame for his career to end that way, but this is bigger than that.

And sorry for lumping in JoePa with the "suits," I guess I must be a complete moron. That being said, it's never been about what power Paterno has now, but 10 years ago. Was he this way in 98-02? Was he powerless? Was he a figurehead then like he's been reduced to now? I'm honestly asking, I don't know.

Obvious PSU troll is obvious... but i digress

The guy is an elderly old man who can barely speak. Kudos to him if he's still spry and kicking ass, but I just watched him gingerly shuffle from his front door to the sidewalk in about 4 minutes. So yeah. Sorry for just stating what I see. No trolling intended.

Watching Paterno on ESPN this evening makes me sad. I said it upthread, but the guy is so clearly a mascot for the school and most definitely not a person who is functionally in charge of anything, and perhaps not even his faculties. He's 85 now, putting him well in mental control back when the original allegations surfaced, so he's definitely not off the hook for any culpability. But today's Paterno is simply not that guy, not anymore.

I say that not to make any excuses, but just to reflect. Joe Paterno is no victim and certainly needs to be punished his wrongdoings. It just looks to me like a feeble old man who doesn't seem to be all there is going to go through an awful lot in the next few months that is the fault of a morally weak, but comparatively younger guy.

It's a tragedy that an entire institution convinced itself saving face was more important than saving the lives of children. It's a tragedy that a lot of people that most definitely should have known better turned the other way for a variety of career-saving reasons. And it's a tragedy that, short of major sanctions from multiple levels (including the Big Ten, NCAA and Commonwealth of Pennsylvania), there doesn't seem to any indicators that we as a society are going to do anything to prevent something like this from happening again.

Quoted for accuracy.

[dfwabel]

its dispicable that people are making paterno out to be as bad as sandusky in any way, shape or form.

In the grand scheme of things, the scale on which his decisions (obviously he could have done more, but hes is in fact a human being) impact the entire situation are relatively miniscule when compared to the lack of effort/care and failure to report a serious incident such as this by the ONES THAT ARE TRULY RESPONSIBLE (Curley, Shultz, Spanier, etc.). Hell, more blame can be placed on McQuery that paterno at this point. How can you witness a young boy being raped without taking immediate action? thats more dispicable than Joe doing what his job entails and referring the matter of hearsay to a person he has full confidence in? (Tim Curley)

The fact that morals are entirely subjective and whether or not you disagree with what paterno chose to do or not to do does not change the fact that he did what he HAD to do.

This is not an issue with the football program. They didnt violate any NCAA rules, etc. People just assume it is because thats all they associate Penn State with. The issue is not with the team, its much, much bigger than that. It has to do with the UNIVERSITY, not Joe Paterno alone.

While cleaning house is the only thing that can save the PROGRAM at this point is needed, Joe is nothing but a casualty of a flawed system. As is my understanding, PA state law requires any employee working for a public/state affiliated institution to immediately report issue such as this to their superiors only. The fact of the matter is, the exact details of what McQuery told paterno are not yet (and may never be) known and are therefore hearsay. None of us know if the info provided by McQuery was downplayed or vague in any way. However, if it was and this is all that joe knew, why shouldnt he hand it up the chain of command and trust the system to work? Wouldnt you? especially in a place of such high power, with allegations coming from a mere GA against a longtime associate and friend of over thirty years? Would you instantly believe someone if they told you that your friend of 30+ years was molesting children?

Again this is just another way to look at this story, because unfortunately we are only being fed the facts that everyone at ESPN wants us to hear because it makes a better story. The media has been waiting for any chance they could get to crucify Paterno and this is their shot.

Saying that paterno and the entire football program harbored a child molester is not backed by fact as much as hearsay, speculation and lack of factual information at this point. If this changes i will be among the first to say i was wrong and change my mind. But, I wont let information that is purely subjective influence my perceptions of the situation.

I go to Penn State. I have a vested interest, not only in the football team, but also in the University itself and how this whole thing can alter the course of my life and my perception as a person based on my association with this school. This all disgusts me as much as the next person, but i am not willing to throw everyone under the bus without knowing ALL of the facts first.

Aso, i think many of you underestimate just how far the Penn State Football hand reaches. Paterno hasnt had any true influence on coaching or recruiting in the past 15 years and they attract big time recruits and win on a regular basis. While i expect the program to have an alabama type slump, this program is most certainly not dead in the water as most of you believe. Urban Meyer bought property in Boalsburg, just outside of state college on monday. Im not sayin. Im just sayin haha (thats the only positive thing i can muster the strength to write today)

Let's see where I disagree with you from my highlights from your post.

1-The Grand Jury report is public. ESPN has not made this story news, your local newspapers who have covered the grand jury from the start have given the world the news of the incidents. People, who will not sit on that jury will form opinions from the GJ report. Like it or not, it occurs.

2-Do not proclaim Paterno as a middle manager. He is not now and never was. He is the top fundraiser for the school and one of the state's highest paid employees yet you treat him as an Asst. Prof who is looking for tenure.

3-Paterno is the same person who as AD, hired Rene Portland who later said that she did not want lesbian players on her team and he supported her comments, yet Sandusky was OK?

4-To the university, your "vested interest" in the football team only is as much as your season tickets cost. That is all.

5-You seem to convict Sandusky yourself, so why just place blame on the administrators and not the man who shared office space with the "offender"?

[TheOneAndOnlyMau]

Let's see where I disagree with you from my highlights from your post.

1-The Grand Jury report is public. ESPN has not made this story news, your local newspapers who have covered the grand jury from the start have given the world the news of the incidents. People, who will not sit on that jury will form opinions from the GJ report. Like it or not, it occurs.

2-Do not proclaim Paterno as a middle manager. He is not now and never was. He is the top fundraiser for the school and one of the state's highest paid employees yet you treat him as an Asst. Prof who is looking for tenure.

3-Paterno is the same person who as AD, hired Rene Portland who later said that she did not want lesbian players on her team and he supported her comments, yet Sandusky was OK?

4-To the university, your "vested interest" in the football team only is as much as your season tickets cost. That is all.

5-You seem to convict Sandusky yourself, so why just place blame on the administrators and not the man who shared office space with the "offender"?

1.) The fact that you don think ESPN hasnt brought this to the attention of every market outside of PA is insane. Tell me you had an interest in this before?

2.) In the eyes of the LAW, Paterno is nothing more than a middle man in this current situation. Like it or not. Youre assessment of his cultural influence is correct but holds no water in a court of law.

3.) Anyone has to capacity to misjudge character, as the article about PSU player arrests also illustrates. You cant control everyone all the time. The trusting of sandusky as a friend and leader of young people also clarifies this point.

4.) Im a student, paying full tutiton and trusting the image of the univeristy to add value to my diploma. This is much bigger than the cost of my tickets or the football team.

5.) Because its not the job of the head football coach to babysit people who have been dismissed from the staff. The responsibility in an event such as this lies with the administration and its inability to take proper action in an already flawed system

[CS85]

2.) In the eyes of the LAW, Paterno is nothing more than a middle man in this current situation. Like it or not. Youre assessment of his cultural influence is correct but holds no water in a court of law.

Brand protection/legacy reputation > standards of moral integrity? Clinging to the fact that he's exempt legally is cold blooded stuff, man.

4.) Im a student, paying full tutiton and trusting the image of the univeristy to add value to my diploma. This is much bigger than the cost of my tickets

Your tuition is going towards paying the attorneys protecting the few disgraced faculty who's stepped down and a few that haven't. Are you one of those who protested on campus?

5.) Because its not the job of the head football coach to babysit people who have been dismissed from his staff. The responsibility in an event such as this lies with the administration and its inability to take proper action in an already flawed system

If any responsible adult sees a former colleague (who to his knowledge allegedly raped a little boy in the locker room) at practice years later with a child, is he not accountable for taking any action? I don't think that Paterno is a black-hearted villain in this but he's certainly one of many who shrugged nervously and hoped it would all just go away.

[TheOneAndOnlyMau]

2.) In the eyes of the LAW, Paterno is nothing more than a middle man in this current situation. Like it or not. Youre assessment of his cultural influence is correct but holds no water in a court of law.

Brand protection/legacy reputation > standards of moral integrity? Clinging to the fact that he's exempt legally is cold blooded stuff, man.

4.) Im a student, paying full tutiton and trusting the image of the univeristy to add value to my diploma. This is much bigger than the cost of my tickets

Your tuition is going towards paying the attorneys protecting the few disgraced faculty who's stepped down and a few that haven't. Are you one of those who protested on campus?

5.) Because its not the job of the head football coach to babysit people who have been dismissed from his staff. The responsibility in an event such as this lies with the administration and its inability to take proper action in an already flawed system

If any responsible adult sees a former colleague (who to his knowledge allegedly raped a little boy in the locker room) at practice years later with a child, is he not accountable for taking any action? I don't think that Paterno is a black-hearted villain in this but he's certainly one of many who shrugged nervously and hoped it would all just go away.

Im not protecting the brand, im simply stating that everyone calling for paternos head (ex: go to jail, etc,) has no ammunition at this point.

No, i didnt "protest" that is just a way for the students to go out a and around on beaver ave. it happens for eveything here. kind of annoying actually.

Youre obviously too thick skulled to grasp the point im trying to illustrate with the tuition thing...

how do you know paterno was sandusky with children on campus during this time period. the fact that he was on campus doesnt mean joe saw him. Not saying it couldnt have happened or wasnt highly likely, you just never know. like i said before, you cant jump to conclusions without proper information

just trying to provide some commentary on what its like coming from the PSU community - i guess that deserves the flaming? if so, youve effectively illustrated point #4

[CS85]

I'm not trying to flame. You're the one using insults here, so think about that real hard.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tqa9OvJvx2I, posted earlier in this thread.

Go to the 8:40 mark and listen from there. Sandusky brought a child with him to a 2007 PSU practice, a little boy. Neither Paterno nor McQueary (who was an asst. coach at the time) took any action then, and Sandusky, who's not exactly a nobody, just gets ignored at a penn state closed practice? With a child? By a person that's likely scarred for life after witnessing him rape a child firsthand, not to mention being in the company of the coach who he told almost immediately after the fact? And nobody does anything?

But hey, I'm just trolling for a flame war, right? So disregard everything I said.

[dfwabel]

Let's see where I disagree with you from my highlights from your post.

1-The Grand Jury report is public. ESPN has not made this story news, your local newspapers who have covered the grand jury from the start have given the world the news of the incidents. People, who will not sit on that jury will form opinions from the GJ report. Like it or not, it occurs.

2-Do not proclaim Paterno as a middle manager. He is not now and never was. He is the top fundraiser for the school and one of the state's highest paid employees yet you treat him as an Asst. Prof who is looking for tenure.

3-Paterno is the same person who as AD, hired Rene Portland who later said that she did not want lesbian players on her team and he supported her comments, yet Sandusky was OK?

4-To the university, your "vested interest" in the football team only is as much as your season tickets cost. That is all.

5-You seem to convict Sandusky yourself, so why just place blame on the administrators and not the man who shared office space with the "offender"?

1.) The fact that you don think ESPN hasnt brought this to the attention of every market outside of PA is insane. Tell me you had an interest in this before?

2.) In the eyes of the LAW, Paterno is nothing more than a middle man in this current situation. Like it or not. Youre assessment of his cultural influence is correct but holds no water in a court of law.

3.) Anyone has to capacity to misjudge character, as the article about PSU player arrests also illustrates. You cant control everyone all the time. The trusting of sandusky as a friend and leader of young people also clarifies this point.

4.) Im a student, paying full tutiton and trusting the image of the univeristy to add value to my diploma. This is much bigger than the cost of my tickets or the football team.

5.) Because its not the job of the head football coach to babysit people who have been dismissed from the staff. The responsibility in an event such as this lies with the administration and its inability to take proper action in an already flawed system

I realize I may go back over other comments, but I want to reply to this specifically.

In order:

1-If you live to think that ESPN investigates all sport issues and presents to the public, you are greatly mistaken. The Harrisburg newspaper was on the Grand Jury since it was started years ago and ESPN was not on the story then. And for the record, Yahoo! does the most investigative reports.

2-As of now, Paterno is not a part of their investigation, but the attorneys for the Schultz and Curley claim that Paterno also knew of ever incident. He was told of a heinous crime and only told his boss. The two others in the legal "chain of command" are under indictment yet the two most powerful people within the system are free and did nothing illegal? Lisa Kelly is protecting him like Texas protected Mack Brown from the now settled sexual harassment charges with his sidekick/assistant, Cleve Bryant.

3-Paterno promoted a person (McQueray) who witnessed a rape and failed to report that rape. How responsible is that?

4-I paid full tuition to my alma mater and paid a year to my graduate school, which does not make me a football fan nor a homer. Stop being a homer.

5-Who was dismissed from university staff? Sandusky was "retired" by your staff and given emeritus status. Schultz retired then came back to campus in an interim role. If he was a part of the old issue why was he brought back, better yet, why would he accept if he knew what occurred?

[Gothamite]

Sandusky brought a child with him to a 2007 PSU practice, a little boy. Neither Paterno nor McQueary (who was an asst. coach at the time) took any action then, and Sandusky, who's not exactly a nobody, just gets ignored at a penn state closed practice? With a child? By a person that's likely scarred for life after witnessing him rape a child firsthand, not to mention being in the company of the coach who he told almost immediately after the fact? And nobody does anything?

Exactly.

I'm sorry if this offends the PSY homers' delicate sensibilities, but Paterno is a scumbag for this.

He has a reliable reason to believe that one of his coaches is a child- er. Then he allows that same coach access to the facilities in retirement, and doesn't say anything when the child- er starts bonging kids around.

Here's a point I haven't seen addressed, and it goes right to Paterno's plausible deniability. One assistant reports that another has been molesting children. Paterno either believes him or he doesn't. That means on his staff he either has a child-molestor or a liar. So why didn't he get rid of one of them? The fact that he kept them both around tells us a lot.

[Mrittenhouse84]

Sandusky brought a child with him to a 2007 PSU practice, a little boy. Neither Paterno nor McQueary (who was an asst. coach at the time) took any action then, and Sandusky, who's not exactly a nobody, just gets ignored at a penn state closed practice? With a child? By a person that's likely scarred for life after witnessing him rape a child firsthand, not to mention being in the company of the coach who he told almost immediately after the fact? And nobody does anything?

Exactly.

I'm sorry if this offends the PSY homers' delicate sensibilities, but Paterno is a scumbag for this.

He has a reliable reason to believe that one of his coaches is a child- er. Then he allows that same coach access to the facilities in retirement, and doesn't say anything when the child- er starts bonging kids around.

Here's a point I haven't seen addressed, and it goes right to Paterno's plausible deniability. One assistant reports that another has been molesting children. Paterno either believes him or he doesn't. That means on his staff he either has a child-molestor or a liar. So why didn't he get rid of one of them? The fact that he kept them both around tells us a lot.

But in 2002 Sandusky Wasn't a staff memmber. You can't fire someone that's not an employee right?

[BBTV]

For those calling for state action, it's important to recognize that despite the name, Penn State is NOT a state school. It is one of 4 schools that has an affiliation with the state, but isn't run by the state like the true state system schools, and the state's authority is rather limited in this case.

The more I read about this, the more I regret any "pass" that I gave McQueary for being a young kid fearful for his career who may have been confused about the right thing to do. Dude was absolutely gutless and as a first hand witness, really effed that kid (and future ones) almost as bad as Sandusky.

Also, in reference to the Penn St faithful, I think that the overwhelming majority realize the seriousness of the situation, and it's a small, stupid, young, and in some cases inbread population that's supporting these guys.

[CS85]

Sandusky brought a child with him to a 2007 PSU practice, a little boy. Neither Paterno nor McQueary (who was an asst. coach at the time) took any action then, and Sandusky, who's not exactly a nobody, just gets ignored at a penn state closed practice? With a child? By a person that's likely scarred for life after witnessing him rape a child firsthand, not to mention being in the company of the coach who he told almost immediately after the fact? And nobody does anything?

Exactly.

I'm sorry if this offends the PSY homers' delicate sensibilities, but Paterno is a scumbag for this.

He has a reliable reason to believe that one of his coaches is a child- er. Then he allows that same coach access to the facilities in retirement, and doesn't say anything when the child- er starts bonging kids around.

Here's a point I haven't seen addressed, and it goes right to Paterno's plausible deniability. One assistant reports that another has been molesting children. Paterno either believes him or he doesn't. That means on his staff he either has a child-molestor or a liar. So why didn't he get rid of one of them? The fact that he kept them both around tells us a lot.

But in 2002 Sandusky Wasn't a staff memmber. You can't fire someone that's not an employee right?

Details on Sandusky's "retirement" negotiation in 1998 which he held fully until his arrest:

"Despite this so-called ‘ban', which was reviewed and approved by University President Graham Spanier without any further inquiry on his part, there was no effective change in Sandusky's status with the school and no limits on his access to the campus," Kelly said. "Sandusky's ‘emeritus' position, alleged negotiated as part of his 1999 retirement, provided him with an office in the Lasch Football Building; unlimited access to all football facilities, including the locker room; access to all recreational facilities; a parking pass; a university Internet account; listing in the faculty directory and numerous other privileges – he had remained a regular presence on campus."

So he was basically an employee without a job or responsibilities. Golden parachute with added perks.

That being said, if JoePa told somebody, anybody to get that guy the hell off campus, Sandusky's retirement contract would've been nullified within hours and he would've been banned without a second thought.

[The_Admiral]

The more I read about this, the more I regret any "pass" that I gave McQueary for being a young kid fearful for his career who may have been confused about the right thing to do. Dude was absolutely gutless and as a first hand witness, really effed that kid (and future ones) almost as bad as Sandusky.

Well, his football career is over for good now. How do you let a gutless creep like him into your home? How do you trust him to be anything more than "the legal bare minimum"?

[pcgd]

A couple of thoughts...

The assistant coach/first person witness: He is worse than Paterno for actually witnessing the event and not reporting it to police. I would hope if I was in that situation I would have kicked Sandusky's ass right there, but I don't fault him for not doing that. But if you don't think the moral thing for him to do was to 1) stop the act by any means he could, probably just yelling "HEY!" would have been enough, 2) getting the kid away from Sandusky by any means necessary, and 3) immediately call the police; I don't want to live in a society with you. That seems fairly cut and dry and not negotiable.

I keep hearing that morals are up for debate from some people. Morals are not religious no matter how much religion tries to have a monopoly on morals. There are certain morals that we all have as a society and you either live by them or you are a monster. The most universally accepted moral in our society has to be: Don't molest children. And along with it, do anything and everything you can to prevent molesting children. Everyone at Penn State that knew about this in any form broke that. Including Joe Paterno.

[JQK]

Heard it somewhere this morning and it stopped me in my tracks because in such a short phrase it described this whole thing.

Penn State: When good men do nothing.

[Cujo]

@SportsCenter BREAKING NEWS: AP source: Joe Paterno will retire at end of the season

No. NO. This guy doesn't deserve a farewell. For a decade, JOE PATERNO HELPED A CHILD PREDATOR GET AWAY WITH IT. He would've been gone a long time ago had this come out when it happened, but still they're gonna give him another three games or so? naw! Penn State will regret not canning him immediately. Sad.

[OnWis97]

On another board I saw a good quote from Herm Edwards about McQueary (though I can't find it online to back it up). Something like "When you see that, there is no protocol. You stop it immediately. If I saw that I'd be in a fist fight."

And that makes him the worst of the cover up artists (along with the janitor). JoePa heard second hand (and still had, at least, a moral responsibility). This guy saw it. Even if you drop the ball at first (or if you feel you have reason to fear for your safety and you don't feel comfortable getting in the middle of it), you call the cops immediately. This is not a "work" matter. It's a "legal" matter. And I totally agree with Herm: there is no protocol.

McQueary will eventually be the poster child for a lot of people that let down a lot of kids. And the more I think about it, the more I think that any upward mobility he had (as referenced in a post earlier in this thread) was an unspoken agreement for his silence...and if that's the case, Paterno was probably a central figure in making that happen.

[OnWis97]

@SportsCenter BREAKING NEWS: AP source: Joe Paterno will retire at end of the season

No. NO. This guy doesn't deserve a farewell. For a decade, JOE PATERNO HELPED A CHILD PREDATOR GET AWAY WITH IT. He would've been gone a long time ago had this come out when it happened, but still they're gonna give him another three games or so? naw! Penn State will regret not canning him immediately. Sad.

I still have a feeling he won't be coaching the final regular season game this year. If he really stays through the end of the year, assuming PSU does not win the B1G title game (which I am pretty sure they won't) it will be really interesting to see whether they end up in a Bowl. I don't know if anyone will take 'em. A traditional powerhouse that is bowl eligible and had a decent year (though have beaten nobody yet). I don't think they're going to a bowl if the house has not been cleaned by the end of the regular season (which is too bad for the senior players).

[Island_Style]

Sandusky is the biggest monster here, obviously. McQueary is almost just as big of a monster.

[ESTONES6]

Paterno to retire at the end of the 2011 Football Season. Obviously it's because of the scandal, but his contract was coming to an end after this season.

[dfwabel]

Paterno to retire at the end of the 2011 Football Season. Obviously it's because of the scandal, but his contract was coming to an end after this season.

He had no contract after this season. The bigger news is that the university still has made one official comment after nearly four days.

We will probably hear from him, "Well, ya know, I knew it was time this year anyhow...."