Say it ain't so, Joe

[dfwabel]

A Sparty deep dive gets uglier and uglier.

 

The MSU Police Chief is named Jim Dunlap. He has been chief since 2002.

 

That's not an issue, but he got his Bachelor's there and has been on the MSU force since 1969 and was never an officer with a municipal police force.

http://msutoday.msu.edu/news/2002/jim-dunlap-named-msu-police-chief-bruce-benson-to-join-msu-faculty/

 

Of course one will stay insular on crimes.

 

Every college campus I've worked on I've personally had to meet with campus police upper staff. On every occasion those upper staff either were  ranked and left, retired after 20 years and went to a college, or were at least a Detective and just left.

 

And Dunlap turnrd on the AG and prosectuor, who are both running for Governor last December.

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/politics/2017/12/13/whitmer-msu-schuette-nassar-prosecution/108586616/

 

[MJWalker45]

1 hour ago, dfwabel said:

Um, it is not the schools duty to "start rounding up the bad eggs and locking them away", be them athletes, or fraternity fraternity members.  That's the role of law enforcement and the judicial branch of government.

 

If you are forever THAT concerned, you need keep yourself abreast of active Title IX* investigations and their contents.

 

https://projects.chronicle.com/titleix/

 

Or read the recent book,"Missoula:Rape and the Justice System in a College Town" to let you know what's going on nationally.

 

*-Ignore if you don't believe in Title IX, but you still may want to stay away from Cornell and Kansas State as they lead in open cases.

I'm aware they aren't the law, but if they are aware of people breaking the law and they don't take steps to report them and kick them out they are complicit. I also don't think for a minute that MSU, Baylor and Penn State are outliers. It's pretty strange to see Spartan fans online leading off their statements with, "If you're a Penn State fan your opinion is useless, but . . ."

[Tracy Jordan]

Just a few days ago, Draymond Green came out and voiced his support for Nassar's victims but he also mentioned that Nassar "doesn't represent what Michigan State stands for." Well, today we found out exactly what they stand for. I'm not trying to single out Draymond, but I believe he was on the team when two MSU basketball players were accused of committing sexual assault and were never charged. One of them literally admitted to raping the victim.

 

https://deadspin.com/5651355/sexual-assault-allegations-against-two-michigan-state-players-why-arent-charges-being-brought#_ga=2.220663633.874430564.1516292694-1004758310.1440703213

 

Edit: Also, Betsy DeVos should resign immediately as Secretary of Education. What a disgrace.

 

https://deadspin.com/betsy-devos-rolled-back-title-ix-protections-two-days-a-1822462475

 

 

 

[dfwabel]

1 hour ago, MJWalker45 said:

I'm aware they aren't the law, but if they are aware of people breaking the law and they don't take steps to report them and kick them out they are complicit. I also don't think for a minute that MSU, Baylor and Penn State are outliers. It's pretty strange to see Spartan fans online leading off their statements with, "If you're a Penn State fan your opinion is useless, but . . ."

Since you're a long time poster here, you knew about Stuebenville, right?

The adult men got 10 days in jail for Obstruction of Justice.

[JayMac]

I'm a PSU alum so I try to avoid this thread like it's the plague. But in light of the MSU scandal (along with the PSU and Baylor scandals), I have to say that I feel as though we are only scratching the surface on the ungliness that is college sports. As @MJWalker45 said earlier, these 3 schools are definitely not outliers.

[DnBronc]

10 hours ago, dfwabel said:

Um, it is not the schools duty to "start rounding up the bad eggs and locking them away", be them athletes, or fraternity fraternity members.  That's the role of law enforcement and the judicial branch of government.

 

It is, but not the local law enforcement. For example, the State College police are in Penn State's pocket, more than likely. It's probably the same thing with the East Lansing police and MSU, although I could be wrong.

[OnWis97]

4 hours ago, jmac11281 said:

I'm a PSU alum so I try to avoid this thread like it's the plague. But in light of the MSU scandal (along with the PSU and Baylor scandals), I have to say that I feel as though we are only scratching the surface on the ungliness that is college sports. As @MJWalker45 said earlier, these 3 schools are definitely not outliers.

I really would love to believe that Penn State and Michigan State are outliers.  I hope that enabling the victimization of children is not going on at a dozen other schools.    That’s not to minimize Baylor, but I guess I am not naive enough to think big time athletic programs are not covering up garden variety sexual assault by athletes.

 

Sadly, I don’t think this is a college sports problem.  I think it’s a nearly universal problem.  The Catholic Church is the most obvious example.  Hollywood.  It seems like cover-ups and turning our collective heads are part of the human condition.  This seems to be exacerbated when an organization’s reputation comes into play or when the perpetrators have very special abilities that help the organization thrive.

 

It is frightening.  I don’t know that we can fix humans.  For all my screaming that Penn State football should have been shut down in order to set a precedent, that would have, at best, made a minor dent in the larger problem.  If god herself brought me a list of every organization enabling pedophiles, I do believe I’d suffer from depression.

[GFB]

3 hours ago, jmac11281 said:

I'm a PSU alum so I try to avoid this thread like it's the plague. But in light of the MSU scandal (along with the PSU and Baylor scandals), I have to say that I feel as though we are only scratching the surface on the ungliness that is college sports. As @MJWalker45 said earlier, these 3 schools are definitely not outliers.

 

Um, having a serial child molester in a coaching or support staff role for decades role is MOST DEFINITELY an outlier. You are creeping toward the “see, PSU is not so different from everyone else” defense card and I will have none of it.

 

Now, the culture of suppressing rapes and assaults in favor of the athletes and programs is probably a much more common cancer that has infected a large majority of schools to varying degrees. There may be 2-3 more schools that have toxic cultures at the level of Baylor out there, but I would be surprised if that intense degree of systematic cowardice was commonplace.

 

Lastly, we’re not asking Athletic Departments to stop every assault or prevent crimes, though that would be fantastic if they could. That’s very difficult with the large numbers of young, immature men and women that come through those doors every fall. And unfortunately, some kids will make grevious mistakes (again, not making excuses for heinous acts, but this is a fact of life).

 

What we can ask of Athletic Departments (and hold them responsible for) is creating a culture of openness that encourages victims to come forward with these issues, that they treat these cases with respect and integrity, and work with law enforcement to take properly weighted disciplinary action when necessary; regardless of who the athlete is, who their coach is, or what sport they play. 

 

[MJWalker45]

10 hours ago, dfwabel said:

Since you're a long time poster here, you knew about Stuebenville, right?

The adult men got 10 days in jail for Obstruction of Justice.

And they should have gotten more. I lived an hour away from Steubenville and all that town has anymore is it's high school sports. The head coach Reno Saccochia is at about the same level as the sheriff in the old 50's movies. If he tells a teacher his kid needs to miss class to go lift, that kid is going to go lift. The Ohio attorney general ended up just getting what he could because the girl that was raped didn't want to come back to Ohio, she was actually from West Virginia which is a stone throw away from Steubenville. The superintendent quit and agreed to never come back to teach in Steubenville but then moved 15 miles away to work at a neighboring school district. Malik Richmond then went to Youngstown State and had to get an injunction to be allowed to play football. The parents of the convicted kids and the other kids that were also involved used the, "If they don't drink here, they'll drink someone else" excuse. 

[BBTV]

1 hour ago, GFB said:

 

Um, having a serial child molester in a coaching or support staff role for decades role is MOST DEFINITELY an outlier. You are creeping toward the “see, PSU is not so different from everyone else” defense card and I will have none of it.

 

 

In what universe is he creeping into that territory?  Years ago, people thought that what happened at Penn State couldn't happen anywhere else.  Until it was discovered that it did.  It's perfectly reasonable to think now that there are other schools orchestrating major coverups of horrific crimes.  That is in no way excusing Penn State or saying "everyone is doing it so lay off penn state".  Some people hear someone say that they're affiliated with Penn State and instantly go into outrage mode .

[MJWalker45]

1 hour ago, GFB said:

 

having a serial child molester in a coaching or support staff role for decades role is MOST DEFINITELY an outlier. 

 

Now, the culture of suppressing rapes and assaults in favor of the athletes and programs is probably a much more common cancer that has infected a large majority of schools to varying degrees. There may be 2-3 more schools that have toxic cultures at the level of Baylor out there, but I would be surprised if that intense degree of systematic cowardice was commonplace.

 

What we can ask of Athletic Departments (and hold them responsible for) is creating a culture of openness that encourages victims to come forward with these issues, that they treat these cases with respect and integrity, and work with law enforcement to take properly weighted disciplinary action when necessary; regardless of who the athlete is, who their coach is, or what sport they play. 

 

I think he means that these schools seeming to cover up things that are occurring is not an outlier. Sandusky is definitely not something that would be expected to occur in more places. As far as preventing assaults, no one would expect an athletic department to stop it. However, there needs to be a national level reporting program. I'll use the Army as an example. A Soldier comes to the chaplain and says she thinks she's been sexually assaulted because she went to the bar and had a few drinks with some other troops. She then woke up in another Soldiers room and she's missing articles of clothing. Because of how the program is set up, the chaplain can point her towards medical help and a restricted report is sent up the chain of command. The Soldier's name is not given and the Soldier is not pressed for further information unless they want to press charges. Then an unrestricted report is made and the post commander is notified in addition to the chain of command. I'm paraphrasing a lot here, but the Army for years refused to admit we had a problem with Soldiers mistreating other Soldiers and we needed to fix it. 

[BBTV]

1 hour ago, GFB said:

What we can ask of Athletic Departments (and hold them responsible for) is creating a culture of openness that encourages victims to come forward with these issues, that they treat these cases with respect and integrity, and work with law enforcement to take properly weighted disciplinary action when necessary; regardless of who the athlete is, who their coach is, or what sport they play. 

 

 

I agree with the rest of your post after that first paragraph, however the bolded here is simply not possible.  How can an athletic department create an environment that encourages victims to come forward?  That's more on the school, and really, society.  I think we're overestimating the reach of an athletic department, and I'm not even really sure how they could possibly accomplish this.  Curious to hear other opinions on how this can be achieved.

[OnWis97]

14 minutes ago, BringBackTheVet said:

 

I agree with the rest of your post after that first paragraph, however the bolded here is simply not possible.  How can an athletic department create an environment that encourages victims to come forward?  That's more on the school, and really, society.  I think we're overestimating the reach of an athletic department, and I'm not even really sure how they could possibly accomplish this.  Curious to hear other opinions on how this can be achieved.

That depends.  Do athletic departments actively discourage victims from coming forward?  Do they lean on campus or city police to try to keep it under raps?  They may not be able to encourage victims to come forward, but given the perception of their power and influence, they can probably stop discouraging it.

[BBTV]

3 minutes ago, OnWis97 said:

That depends.  Do athletic departments actively discourage victims from coming forward?  Do they lean on campus or city police to try to keep it under raps?  They may not be able to encourage victims to come forward, but given the perception of their power and influence, they can probably stop discouraging it.

 

that makes sense..

[GFB]

1 hour ago, BringBackTheVet said:

 

In what universe is he creeping into that territory?  Years ago, people thought that what happened at Penn State couldn't happen anywhere else.  Until it was discovered that it did.  It's perfectly reasonable to think now that there are other schools orchestrating major coverups of horrific crimes.  That is in no way excusing Penn State or saying "everyone is doing it so lay off penn state".  Some people hear someone say that they're affiliated with Penn State and instantly go into outrage mode without reading.

 

I very well could have misinterpreted his intention. His post began with “As a PSU grad...” and ended with “...these 3 schools are not outliers.” I understood that as “most schools probably aren’t as far from us as you’d like to believe;” which in one sense, is true. I pointed out how Michigan botched the Gibbons/Lewan case a few years back. There’s probably other incidents I know nothing about and were swept away quietly. And I’m sure that happens at almost every major program.

 

However, there’s a gaping pit between “everyone’s bad to some degree” and “supernovas of evil that were purposefully ignored.” When a new tragedy breaks about a school, then we can move that school from the “common bad” to “not outliers” group.

 

(There was also probably some confirmation bias in how I read his post as well, but I admit that)

 

 

1 hour ago, BringBackTheVet said:

 

I agree with the rest of your post after that first paragraph, however the bolded here is simply not possible.  How can an athletic department create an environment that encourages victims to come forward?  That's more on the school, and really, society.  I think we're overestimating the reach of an athletic department, and I'm not even really sure how they could possibly accomplish this.  Curious to hear other opinions on how this can be achieved.

 

 

For a start, athletic departments can simply be transparent. MSU attempted to block/deleted so much information from leaking out, they were actively discouraging the truth from being sought out. Get out of the way and allow both the authorities and administration to get to the bottom of these incidents and root out these problems before they fester.

 

Also, quit looking at the bottom line. Student athletes are ambassadors for your school, and that is a privilege not a right. I would not want someone representing my university who committed a sexual assault, regardless of how talented they are or how much money they could make me. 

 

It’s not about them monitoring their athletes or preventing them from committing crimes as it is holding your athletes, coaches, and staff responsible for the consequences of their actions and not trying to shield them because of their sport or coach or talent. 

[OnWis97]

Tone-deafness that would piss off the JoePalogists...

 

https://amp.freep.com/amp/1057931001?__twitter_impression=true

[JayMac]

6 hours ago, GFB said:

 

Um, having a serial child molester in a coaching or support staff role for decades role is MOST DEFINITELY an outlier. You are creeping toward the “see, PSU is not so different from everyone else” defense card and I will have none of it.

 

 

 

 

Don't put words into my mouth, please. I said scandals. I do not defend the Penn State administration whatsoever. I'm embarrassed that it happened. I've been very clear about it. Scandals, no matter how big or small, will continue to be a huge problem for college sports and society in general.

[JayMac]

5 hours ago, BringBackTheVet said:

 

In what universe is he creeping into that territory?  Years ago, people thought that what happened at Penn State couldn't happen anywhere else.  Until it was discovered that it did.  It's perfectly reasonable to think now that there are other schools orchestrating major coverups of horrific crimes.  That is in no way excusing Penn State or saying "everyone is doing it so lay off penn state".  Some people hear someone say that they're affiliated with Penn State and instantly go into outrage mode .

Thank you very much.

[GFB]

20 minutes ago, jmac11281 said:

Don't put words into my mouth, please. I said scandals. I do not defend the Penn State administration whatsoever. I'm embarrassed that it happened. I've been very clear about it. Scandals, no matter how big or small, will continue to be a huge problem for college sports and society in general.

 

Hey, if that’s your position, than we’re good. I obviously misinterpreted your post and extrapolated meaning past your intentions. 

[pianoknight]

Too early to switch up the Land Grant Trophy?