Say it ain't so, Joe

[Viper]

I hope at least some of Paterno's players realize that if he did the right thing years ago that not only would there be less victims but their boy Paterno would be the hero of this story.

Not necessarily. There'd be fewer victims but the disgust factor would likely be just as high, as would the demand for housecleaning, the innocent along with the guilty. Paterno might not have been vilified as he is now, but he'd still be out of a job along with everyone else, not even close to Bobby Bowden's record, and the program's reputation would still be badly tarnished. Sort of like the Flight 93 passengers - they succeeded in doing what they had to do, but at the end of the day, they're still dead because of it.

That, it seems to me, is part of the problem here. Individual-level incentives are not lining up with the greater good.

[CS85]

I still have yet to understand why Jo Pa got fired.

*cracks knuckles*

1. Paterno got fired because the entire university trustee board knows he's going to face criminal negligence/perjury charges

2. Paterno got fired because the entire university trustee board knows he has been painted negatively (and appropriately) as indirectly condoning of Sandusky's activities, and can't have him associated any longer with the university

3. Paterno got fired because the entire university trustee board voted unanimously to dump him before he could say/do anything else stupid, like holding pep rallies on his front yard

It has recently come to light that Joe told the athletic director, the president of the university, and the chief of campus police. With that said how in gods name can that not be considered enough? Yes, I do realize that he didn't follow up and that he could have done more, but from my standpoint Joe did not one single :censored:ing thing wrong.

Joe Paterno did the bare minimum to avoid legal charges to him (at the time), allowing Sandusky, somebody who he was given direct witness testimony to have been raping a 10 year old boy in PSU facilties, to basically get off with no punishment, as well as have free access all hours to campus. For over a decade.

And that's just a single occasion. The failure to take action is almost as damning as the evil action itself.

Joe did nothing wrong, he does not deserve this, 64 years and now this s***?

He absolutely deserved this as well as criminal charges he'll face. Tenure has nothing at all to do with this. This has nothing to do with football or his legacy. No other coach anywhere would've lasted 5 minutes, JoePa lasted 5 days. Read the report. Accept that the sobering ugly reality has destroyed this man's legend, and while he is probably not a black-hearted beast, he allowed one to permeate campus and molest/rape kids by turning a blind eye.

[Gothamite]

Reports that Paterno did not know the full extent of the allegations in 2002. All I'll say (sure, call me a broken record) is there has yet to be testimony about exactly what he knew. That is the crucial information for his part of this, imo.

So Paterno is going to claim that he lied to the grand jury? He told them that in 2002 that he was told by McQuery of witnessing sexual contact between Sandusky and a 10-year-old boy the day after it happened.

So if that's not true, if Paterno did not actually know that Sandusky was caught molesting a boy in 2002, then Paterno was lying then or is lying now. Not an enviable position.

Perhaps I missed it, but I did not see the words "sexual contact" in the quoted testimony. I'll go back and check when I have a moment but I believe that only came up in non-quoted text (read: hearsay).

The presentment is not "hearsay." It's not intended to be a full transcript of the testimony but a summary.

Are you suggesting that Paterno did not tell the grand jury what the grand jury says Paterno told the grand jury? Because they say he told them that he was given an eyewitness report of Sandusky "fondling or doing something of a sexual nature to a young boy."

And if Paterno is now going to claim that he didn't say what they say he said, then we will get into full transcripts. Again, hardly an enviable position.

[NJTank]

The kind of time Sandusky could be looking at.

He should be castrated too.

[CS85]

Not to be insanely morbid about this, but I mean...you gotta think it's just a matter of time before Sandusky takes care of the situation himself, if you catch my drift. I don't think guy's gonna do jail.

[dfwabel]

And a sponsor bails on advertising during a Penn State game.

Due to the recent allegations surrounding the Penn State Football program, Cars.com has decided to withdraw from this weekend's sponsorship of the Nebraska at Penn State game on Saturday, November 12 at 12:00 PM. As a proud, longtime supporter of ESPN College Football, it's important to us that we're building our brand and raising the visibility of our advertisers in a way that celebrates the sport, the dedication of its student athletes and the many reputable universities that field teams. We will still be sponsoring a game this weekend.

-cars.com spokesman Ron Hall

[CS85]

UNIVERSITY PARK, Pa. - Due to multiple threats made against Assistant Coach Mike McQueary, the University has decided it would be in the best interest of all for Assistant Coach McQueary not to be in attendance at Saturday's Nebraska game.

This is just the beginning for ol' Mike.

[njmeadowlanders]

I know I sound like a broken record, but I'm just so embarrassed to be an alum right now.

I dare them to solicit me for a donation now like they always do...

The shame of it all (from what's happened this week ONLY, not the actual crimes) is that 99.9% of Penn Staters had nothing to do with this, yet the name is now forever tarnished.

Ugh.

[CS85]

PA Governor/PSU alum Tom Corbett addressed the students today:

At a news conference Thursday in State College, Corbett sidestepped questions about McQueary, who has come under widespread criticism for not acting to stop the alleged sexual assault.

"The university — and you will have to talk to the university itself — still has some deliberations to make in that respect," the governor said.

The governor also used his time at the podium to address the rioting at Penn State that followed the announcement of Paterno's dismissal Wednesday night. He laid into students who tore down lampposts and overturned a television van, calling them "knuckleheads."

"You have a passion? Great. You want to demonstrate? Great. You want to speak out? Great … [there's] no justification for violence," he said.

Corbett called on students to show their best side to a country that has its eyes on the university.

"They're fixed on this campus. Look around this room. Look around the campus," he said, addressing a throng of national and state press. "Please. Please behave and demonstrate your pride in Penn State."

Good to see an adult encouraging sanity and decency from the pack of willfully ignorant buffoons that are running rampant in Creepy Valley.

http://joeposnanski.si.com/2011/11/10/the-end-of-paterno/

^interesting article from SI by Joe Paterno's biographer.

[Viper]

2- This is not to exonerate McQueary because I think he could have at least shouted to stop the abuse. That said, many in this thread has had a lot of tough talk on what one would do if there were in his position, remember the Milgram Experiment in regards to decision making.

I'm not sure the Milgram experiments are an apt comparison here. They revolved around being trained to do seemingly awful things. McQueary wasn't trained to do anything awful, nor was he trained to do nothing to stop awful things from being done. Indeed, the very problem here is that the scenario McQueary faced is light-years away from anything most people, athletes or otherwise, would be likely to face in a million years, much less be trained to prepare to respond to. I mean, what are the odds against walking in on a child rape in progress? For something like that, unless you've thought it over or mentally rehearsed such a scenario in advance, you probably have no idea how you'll respond until you're faced with it. It's a good bet that this story has prompted a lot of people to do precisely that - to mentally prepare themselves as much as possible to not become the next Mike McQueary. Hence the tough talk you're seeing here and elsewhere.

As a side note, I just saw an ad for the B1G Fan Fest in Indianapolis on December 3rd. Think Penn State will even bother to send any sort of delegation there?

[infrared41]

Tackling Jake22 one point at a time... and prefacing this by saying I lived in western PA for 13 years, have met Joe Paterno and like him immensely, attended Penn State (albeit briefly), and fully comprehend the "Cult of State College":

"I still have yet to understand why Jo Pa got fired."

- Honestly, if you don't understand it, it's because you have some sort of blind spot. To anyone looking at this even semi-objectively, it's pretty obvious as to why.

"...nothing makes me more enraged than the media and the way they handled this and all of their bulls*** slander,"

- Um... what slander exactly? From the reporting I have seen, heard and read, it has been nothing but objective.

Based upon what I know (which I am well aware may not be the full truth) I don't think that Joe Paterno deserved to be fired, or even be forced to resign for that matter. It has recently come to light that Joe told the athletic director, the president of the university, and the chief of campus police. With that said how in gods name can that not be considered enough?

- Because after that, he (at absolute minimum) failed to follow up on the accusations at hand, or (at absolute worst) engaged in a criminal conspiracy which covered the incidents up and allowed them to continue. Either way, the incidents continued, making him culpable.

The way I see it now is that regardless of what Joe or anyone else knew, (because at some point does it even really matter?) weather it was the shadow of the tip of the iceberg or the whole gross ugly truth, the fact of the matter is that the university decided to protect themselves because a sex scandal, no matter how big, looks bad.

- You see it wrong. "Because at some point does it even really matter?" YES. Because by the failure to act - by Paterno, by anyone - allowed criminal activity to continue unabated. There is no one at Penn State: Paterno, his assistant coaches, the AD, the President, their police department, who will (nor probably should) emerge unscathed from this.

Paterno is GOD in that area. Period. People have, and will continue, to do things for this man - with or without his knowledge or consent - that you would simply not believe. A cover-up by local police? Not at all out of the question. A cover-up by local CYS people? Yep, I'd believe it. A local DA refusing to pursue a case against Sandusky due to his status within the PSU world? I absolutely can see that as well. That man has enormous pull in that area, and will 'til the day he dies.

Now, along with the help of ESPN and the other media, Penn State was given the opportunity to run and hide and yet again not take responsibility. Isn't it convenient that Joe has turned into the scapegoat for this whole f****d up situation?

- I don't understand this comment. Penn State's trustees, to their credit, seem to be handling this the only way they can. Paterno's not a scapegoat; he's got skin in the game. Had Paterno known nothing about Sandusky's conduct, then he'd be a scapegoat. Had he followed up on the situation at hand (and, frankly, if anyone who reports to me in any capacity is accused of pedophilia, I'm sure as hell going to follow that in great detail), he'd have been a scapegoat. But instead he did just enough to cover his own ass, in a situation where more was needed.

Excellent reply Mac. I'd just like to add to all the other stuff that Paterno also allowed Sandusky access to the Penn State football facilities and campus after 2002. There are reports that have Sandusky on the Penn State campus as recently as last week. This thing is so beyond the pale that sometmes it's hard to believe it's actually real. It blows my mind every time I hear or read the basic "How can they do this to JoePa? He ain't done nuthin! He's just a scapegoat." Right.

[CS85]

What really irritates me is that people are harping about how many lives Paterno touched and positive things he did to affect the people who've known him.

Before last week, I bet you could find throngs of people who would have said the same things about Jerry Sandusky.

[DarkJourney]

This morning when I was listening to sports talk radio (I blame myself for that) a caller actually had the gall to say that the situation at Penn State was the same as any NCAA infraction. I was so pissed I just wanted to reach through the radio and rip this guys nuts off and shove them down his throat. Those who put sports of any kind above moral obligations are a waste of space.

[twi]

Reports that Paterno did not know the full extent of the allegations in 2002. All I'll say (sure, call me a broken record) is there has yet to be testimony about exactly what he knew. That is the crucial information for his part of this, imo.

So Paterno is going to claim that he lied to the grand jury? He told them that in 2002 that he was told by McQuery of witnessing sexual contact between Sandusky and a 10-year-old boy the day after it happened.

So if that's not true, if Paterno did not actually know that Sandusky was caught molesting a boy in 2002, then Paterno was lying then or is lying now. Not an enviable position.

Perhaps I missed it, but I did not see the words "sexual contact" in the quoted testimony. I'll go back and check when I have a moment but I believe that only came up in non-quoted text (read: hearsay).

The presentment is not "hearsay." It's not intended to be a full transcript of the testimony but a summary.

Are you suggesting that Paterno did not tell the grand jury what the grand jury says Paterno told the grand jury? Because they say he told them that he was given an eyewitness report of Sandusky "fondling or doing something of a sexual nature to a young boy."

And if Paterno is now going to claim that he didn't say what they say he said, then we will get into full transcripts. Again, hardly an enviable position.

Maybe it is just me being stubborn, or maybe I was actually born in Missouri, but I want to see a quote from court detailing exactly what he says he was told. I don't believe I'm being intentionally stuck on this but I don't have enough to proclaim guilt in my own internal court.

By guilt I mean in a legal sense, I feel the actions taken by Penn State are justified.

[Epiphanic]

What strikes me about this whole thing is how Paterno is the focus in this story. I can understand it because he's the celebrity and the face of Penn State football, but seeing what people are saying/writing about him makes it seem like he was the pedophile. It seems like people like Sandusky or McQueary are getting a relative free pass because they don't have the celebrity despite they being people with more fault than Paterno yet JoePa is the villain in the story.

PS- That Posnanski article says virtually everything I want to say (as he usually does).

[CS85]

What strikes me about this whole thing is how Paterno is the focus in this story. I can understand it because he's the celebrity and the face of Penn State football, but seeing what people are saying/writing about him makes it seem like he was the pedophile. It seems like people like Sandusky or McQueary are getting a relative free pass because they don't have the celebrity despite they being people with more fault than Paterno yet JoePa is the villain in the story.

PS- That Posnanski article says virtually everything I want to say (as he usually does).

The strong effort isn't to paint Paterno as a villain so much as exposing him as flawed and guilty in this. People are calling for his head just as blindly as they are for his reinstatement.

Don't stress about Sandusky, btw. There's no defense for him, it's not like anybody's going to step up and defend the guy. JoePa was an icon and the real test of the institution's integrity hinged on how closely they'd defend this guy. His dismissal was for the greater good, legend be damned. PSU fans are just going to have to accept that and move on.

[dfwabel]

What strikes me about this whole thing is how Paterno is the focus in this story. I can understand it because he's the celebrity and the face of Penn State football, but seeing what people are saying/writing about him makes it seem like he was the pedophile. It seems like people like Sandusky or McQueary are getting a relative free pass because they don't have the celebrity despite they being people with more fault than Paterno yet JoePa is the villain in the story.

PS- That Posnanski article says virtually everything I want to say (as he usually does).

It was stated earlier in this thread that McQueary is seen as a "whistleblower" and they are protected from retaliation from her/his employer by law. (Link to a blog discussing the Pennsylvania version of the whistleblower law)

The Act does not concern itself with wrongdoing in the everyday sense of the word, or even in a tort sense of the word. Instead, in order for a report of wrongdoing to afford an employee with whistleblower protection, the alleged wrongdoing must be a violation of a federal or state statute or regulation, or of a municipal ordinance or a code of conduct or ethics ?designed to protect the interests of the public or the employer,? and which is ?not of a merely technical or minimal nature.? Thus, where an employee of a nursing home that has contracted with a municipal government reports substantial violations of numerous health and safety requirements, that employee will be entitled to protection under the Whistleblower Law. However, where an employee simply reports violations of a company?s internal policies not embodied within any particular statute or regulation, such a report does not entitle the employee to whistleblower protection. Unless a particular statute or regulation specifically prohibits particular conduct, the Whistleblower Law simply does not apply. Courts have therefore held that a supervising surgeon?s failure to be physically present during medical procedures he was required to supervise, no matter how medically inappropriate, did not constitute ?wrongdoing? for the purposes of the Whistleblower Law because there was no state statute specifically requiring the supervising surgeon to be present during the surgery.

In addition, McQueary is also a key witness to the state's prosecution of Sandusky and oftentimes, a witness does not get charged in exchange for their testimony for the target of the overall investigation.

[CS85]

dfwabel, I heard an interview with the former Governor of PA who's also a former attorney (maybe Rendell? can't remember his name) who said that PSU can fire anyone it wants for any reason they want and that the whistleblower law was pretty flexible in this situation.

I'll try to find that interview.

[The_Admiral]

But the whole outrage over McQueary is that by sticking to the "legal bare minimum" of the vaunted chain of command and profiting from his relative silence, he isn't a whistleblower at all.

[rams80]

dfwabel, I heard an interview with the former Governor of PA who's also a former attorney (maybe Rendell? can't remember his name) who said that PSU can fire anyone it wants for any reason they want and that the whistleblower law was pretty flexible in this situation.

I'll try to find that interview.

And this encourages people in the future to volunteer what information they have how precisely? I think I'm starting to understand how the cover up lasted so long.