Say it ain't so, Joe

[Viper]

As I typed the section you bolded, I thought that to myself that a company like Apple could get through a pedophile scandal. Coca-Cola probably would too. Heck, our entire U.S. military was able to blame Abu Ghraib (remember that?) on a few bad apples and not much happened for systemic change there. So yeah, I guess I take it back.

Which does lead me to thinking that drastic consequences could help with prevention. It's the basis of our entire justice system, so why not also private/semi-private industry? I hate to be a broken record, but it's why canceling today's game and the football season (if not the program) was so important to me. It would show that someone somewhere is taking this situation seriously. Instead, we're likely to hear a lot about "healing" and "cleaning house" and I think we'll be back to "normal" by next season.

Live and don't learn, that's our motto.

More generally, I think human beings in general and Americans in particular have a deep-seated aversion to chaos and upheaval. We are willing to put up with amazing amounts of injustice and abuse in our institutions if the only viable alternative is to scrap the whole thing and rebuild, and have to deal with any manner of hardships and deprivation in the process of doing so. The most obvious example of this, of course, being the whole "too big to (be allowed to) fail" mentality in our financial sector.

Wouldn't "cleaning house" imply that all involved are removed from the University & Football program and punished appropriately? Going nuclear on the football program would punish a lot of people that were not involved at all. Yes, each and every person involved in this cover up should earn the harshest punishment possible.

Unfortunately that's true. Unfortunately, the chance of getting unfairly punished for someone else's sins is also a fact of life. If Penn State were to investigate all its employees' involvement, or lack thereof, in this mess, that could take years or even decades. Going nuclear would take out the innocent along with the guilty but at least it would allow the university to move on in a timely manner.

[charger77]

As I typed the section you bolded, I thought that to myself that a company like Apple could get through a pedophile scandal. Coca-Cola probably would too. Heck, our entire U.S. military was able to blame Abu Ghraib (remember that?) on a few bad apples and not much happened for systemic change there. So yeah, I guess I take it back.

Which does lead me to thinking that drastic consequences could help with prevention. It's the basis of our entire justice system, so why not also private/semi-private industry? I hate to be a broken record, but it's why canceling today's game and the football season (if not the program) was so important to me. It would show that someone somewhere is taking this situation seriously. Instead, we're likely to hear a lot about "healing" and "cleaning house" and I think we'll be back to "normal" by next season.

Live and don't learn, that's our motto.

More generally, I think human beings in general and Americans in particular have a deep-seated aversion to chaos and upheaval. We are willing to put up with amazing amounts of injustice and abuse in our institutions if the only viable alternative is to scrap the whole thing and rebuild, and have to deal with any manner of hardships and deprivation in the process of doing so. The most obvious example of this, of course, being the whole "too big to (be allowed to) fail" mentality in our financial sector.

Wouldn't "cleaning house" imply that all involved are removed from the University & Football program and punished appropriately? Going nuclear on the football program would punish a lot of people that were not involved at all. Yes, each and every person involved in this cover up should earn the harshest punishment possible.

Unfortunately that's true. Unfortunately, the chance of getting unfairly punished for someone else's sins is also a fact of life. If Penn State were to investigate all its employees' involvement, or lack thereof, in this mess, that could take years or even decades. Going nuclear would take out the innocent along with the guilty but at least it would allow the university to move on in a timely manner.

Even if the nuclear options would punish (meaning eliminating the jobs of) many university employees such as concession staff employees, custodial staff, stadium & facilities maintenance, etc...

[BBTV]

http://www.proudtobeapennstater.com/

Proud To Be A Penn Stater.com has raised more than $230,000 in under 48 hours to donate to RAINN.

[dfwabel]

I will try to post a link from The Chronicle of Higher Education, which reports news regarding colleges and universities. It normally is password restricted, so I will post the link, but copy/paste the text. .

Moody's to review Penn State's credit rating.

Moody's Investors Service put Pennsylvania State University "on review" for a possible downgrade of its credit rating on Friday, saying that over the next several months the rating agency will assess the potential scope of "reputational and financial" damage to the university from its child sex-abuse scandal.

Moody's, which now rates Penn State's $1-billion in debt as Aa1, the second-highest of its 10 categories, said it would monitor possible emerging risks from potential lawsuits or settlements as well as from possible declines in philanthropic support, weaker student demand, changes in state government, and significant management or governance changes.

The Moody's announcement came hours after the Penn State Board of Trustees pledged to conduct a full investigation. The trustees fired the president, Graham B. Spanier, on Wednesday. Gary C. Schultz, the former interim senior vice president for finance and business, returned to retirement after being criminally charged with lying to a grand jury and failing to report allegations of suspected child abuse to authorities. He denies those charges.

[CS85]

http://www.proudtobeapennstater.com/

Proud To Be A Penn Stater.com has raised more than $230,000 in under 48 hours to donate to RAINN.

Thank god there's a constituency of PSU grads/students that aren't living in the bubble of rah-rah buffoonery. Nice to see they've raised so much money.

[The_Admiral]

Maybe Sandusky is stopped, or at least caught sooner, if a mom or dad had gone along on those trips he liked to take with the kids.

But Sandusky preyed on kids who were disadvantaged, kids whose moms and dads--if they even had them--weren't in a position to chaperone their kids on cross-country trips. He farmed his victims to be weak and powerless. It's so deplorable.

[Gothamite]

Exactly - he had a steady stream of victims least likely to fight back or report him.

And what's precisely why it was incumbent on somebody at Penn State to stop enabling him, regardless of the PR hit the program would take in the process.

[RedSox44]

Dude protested at Beaver Stadium today got verbally and physically assaulted, and had his protested signs wrestled away from him.

I'm just surprised there weren't more protesters.

http://gawker.com/5858988/this-is-about-the-football-players-moron-tells-penn-state-protester

[Gothamite]

So cowardice grows in abundance in Happy Valley.

Figures.

[infrared41]

Maybe Sandusky is stopped, or at least caught sooner, if a mom or dad had gone along on those trips he liked to take with the kids.

But Sandusky preyed on kids who were disadvantaged, kids whose moms and dads--if they even had them--weren't in a position to chaperone their kids on cross-country trips. He farmed his victims to be weak and powerless. It's so deplorable.

Yeah, I thought about that after I posted it. Also, I'm sure Sandusky wasn't the only adult on those trips yet he still managed to find a way.

[infrared41]

Dude protested at Beaver Stadium today got verbally and physically assaulted, and had his protested signs wrestled away from him.

I'm just surprised there weren't more protesters.

http://gawker.com/5858988/this-is-about-the-football-players-moron-tells-penn-state-protester

We're certainly not short on idiots in this country.

[Eye]

Dude protested at Beaver Stadium today got verbally and physically assaulted, and had his protested signs wrestled away from him.

I'm just surprised there weren't more protesters.

http://gawker.com/5858988/this-is-about-the-football-players-moron-tells-penn-state-protester

We're certainly not short on idiots in this country.

I hate Penn State. Sad and disappointing all around, at the entire events that occured: the actual raping of boys, the cover up, people rioting and support for people who chose not to so anything when they knew someone was doing something so terrible.

[Viper]

Dude protested at Beaver Stadium today got verbally and physically assaulted, and had his protested signs wrestled away from him.

I'm just surprised there weren't more protesters.

http://gawker.com/5858988/this-is-about-the-football-players-moron-tells-penn-state-protester

Already discussed (albeit with a different link) farther up the thread.

[BlueSky]

Although no spectacular large-scale displays of ugliness ever materialized at today's Nebraska-Penn State game, some PSU fans managed to shame their school even more.

At Penn State’s stadium, profanity, scorn greet one father’s protest

Before I read this, I was rooting against Penn State for this game. Now, I may root against them forever.

So cowardice grows in abundance in Happy Valley.

Figures.

You guys are letting the media play you. Before you start flailing and wailing, hear (well, read) me out.

Yes, the people chronicled in the media reports are idiots. But I have a tough time believing that their moronic responses represent the majority of people who saw the guy protesting. Surely there were supportive comments and actions directed to this gentleman as well, none of which made it into those reports.

Why? Because the media has an agenda (ratings/hits/circulation) and the way to promote it is to get people stirred up. If you saw a headline that said, "Most Who Encounter Protester Are Supportive", would you read the story? Tens of thousands of people saw that guy. The large majority surely were either supportive or said nothing at all.

Years ago a former colleague who did groundbreaking research with plane crash survivors and victims' families got a phone call during a meeting. She came back a minute later and said, "It was ABC News about that crash last week." I said it was fine if she wanted to take a break and talk with them but she said no, they decided they didn't want to interview her. I asked why and she smiled and said, "Because I'm not angry." They didn't want her view, which was that airlines had made significant progress in treating people better following disasters. Go figure.

The takeaway from the Penn State protester story is that one courageous guy expressed his opinion, and a balanced report would be newsworthy. Selectively reported as it was, it was basically just spin.

[Gothamite]

Clever. Accusing us of "flailing and wailing" lets you subtly diminish our opinions, as if they are neither informed nor reasoned. I assure you, mine are both.

This predator was allowed to hunt unfettered because the entire Penn State culture thought that football was more important than the victims. Anyone who objected to this mild protest confirms that mindset still exists at Penn State. In small doses? Yes. But even a small dose is far, far too much.

[BBTV]

Gothamite, I'm usually with you on topics like this, and while I do feel the same way as you on this one, I think you need to step down off your horse for a minute and accept that you might not know everything that's going on. It's incredibly easy to slam an entire culture right now, and paint with a broad brush, but the facts are simply that the overwhelming majority of students and alumni are appalled at this whole mess, feel for the victims, and fear for what's going to happen to their university. Of course there are drunk teenagers and delusional alums, just like there is in nearly every major scandal. They're more vocal, more visible, and easier to put on TV. I'm not blaming the media, because those idiots are certainly out there and should be shown, but reading your posts, you'd think that every man, woman, and child in State College was in on this and was probably raping kids themselves.

I have no affiliation with Penn State at all, nor am I a college sports fan (I did play football in high school with a player who was a star for a few years there, but I couldn't care less about the school.) While Penn State is generally considered a "western PA" school, there's still a huge alumni contingent in Southeast PA and Lehigh Valley, and when you're in an area like this (where it's getting even more coverage than it is nationally) and you hear these people and what they have to say and what they're doing (the good as well as the bad) you realize that it's not the way that you are making it out to be.

Sort of off-topic - I've never understood hate for colleges in general (there's been a few posts in this thread from people claiming to "hate Penn State" even before the scandal). I can understand "hating" a college's football team, or basketball team, or an arrogant coach, etc., but to hate a school is pretty immature ("I HATE Boston College. Their physics labs are so lame!")

[The_Admiral]

Indiana's English department isn't grindy enough. They don't teach literature the right way.

I agree with you. I think it's too bad that a few (well, a few thousand) bad apples are misrepresenting everyone and everything at what's universally considered a very respectable school. I mean, there's no way that everybody who went there could be this brainwashed. At the same time, the people who are in the cult of football deserve wheelbarrows of disdain, now more than ever, and it does bear mentioning that the cult of football is big enough and high enough that unspeakable crimes were able to go on for decades in the name of maintaining the status quo.

I'm glad most students and alumni are mature and reasonable about this, shame that too many aren't.

[Gothamite]

And that's when the responsible majority needs to shout down the vocal idiots, not the other way around.

Sure, there are facts yet to surface But those facts aren't going to get any kinder for Paterno and the administration. We already know there was systemic corruption throughout the department, established and protected by Paterno, who ruled it like a king.

We know enough right now to label every show of support for Paterno either willfully ignorant or a vote for the coverup, and either is an illustration of why it was allowed to flourish for so long.

[BBTV]

Well I think the proudtobeapennstater thing I posted before was exactly that. We always say when there are tragedies and everyone is giving their fake condolences that they should shut up and show that they care with their money. Money talks (and really, what else can anyone do right now?) I think that the amount of money raised clearly shows that the majority are on the right side, and the money should be louder than the baffoons. If we're going to say that in cases like hurricanes and earthquakes, we need to apply the same standard here.

[BlueSky]

Clever. Accusing us of "flailing and wailing" lets you subtly diminish our opinions, as if they are neither informed nor reasoned. I assure you, mine are both.

This predator was allowed to hunt unfettered because the entire Penn State culture thought that football was more important than the victims. Anyone who objected to this mild protest confirms that mindset still exists at Penn State. In small doses? Yes. But even a small dose is far, far too much.

Uh, I didn't accuse anyone of anything. I said BEFORE anyone starts flailing and wailing (i.e. overreacting, as internetters in general and many CCSLCers in particular are wont to do) to simply consider everything I was saying.

What amuses me is that your basis for disagreeing with my post isn't the validity of the point made, it seems to be that you think I'm defending those involved, which is laughable. BBTV made the point I was indirectly making (as much as I'll bet it pained him ) but I was more annoyed by the typical media spin put on this story.

The whole media thing is rather fascinating. In '94, I worked the Eagle 4184 accident and saw two news accounts of the same development in the investigation (these are approximate but get the point across).

1. "Though other pilots had reported sporadic icing, air traffic controllers did not have sufficient information to warrant ordering an American Eagle turboprop to fly at a different altitude..."

2. "Federal air traffic controllers failed to warn the crew of a circling American Eagle turboprop even though they knew dangerous icing conditions had developed..."

Two very different takes on the same facts, one obviously more sympathetic to ATC than the other. Here's what the final NTSB report had to say. Judge for yourself which of the above was a factual news report and which was an attempt at muckraking.

===

Therefore, the Safety Board concludes that although the controlling facilities were aware that light icing conditions were forecast for the area of the LUCIT intersection, flight 4184 was properly released from Indianapolis because there were viable options for pilots who chose to avoid holding in icing conditions.

The Safety Board concludes that under the circumstances on the day of the accident, the controllers acted appropriately in the management of traffic flow into ORD, which necessitated the holding of flight 4184 in the BOONE sector.

Because there were no PIREPs provided to the previous controller and the crew of flight 4184 did not provide a PIREP of icing conditions at the LUCIT intersection, it was reasonable for the controller to assume that there were no significant weather events in that area, and that the crew of flight 4184 was not experiencing any problems that would have required the controller to take alternative actions.

===

For anyone who feels I provide too much background on my points...well, post on these boards for a few years and see how some people respond and you probably will too.