2012 Hall of Fame ballot

[JayJaxon]

I like Clubhouse Confidential but I'm a little disenchanted by how they don't go off of the full spectrum of a guy's career. The guys on that show cherry-pick the best year of the players they like and make their case that way. You, I and everyone else could do that and make a case for Javy Lopez if we wanted to. So I try not to look at them too much when making my case.

The Hall keeps out way too many in my opinion. But it's also what separates baseball from the other sports.

[Mac the Knife]

Lee Smith's support I just don't get especially all the people that voted for him and didn't vote for Kevin Brown. I've said before I throw out the save rule when evaluating relief pitchers. I look at it the same way I look at the QB rating in football. It gives you some indication of how good a player is, but its a rough estimate at best, and I would say completely made up stat at worst.

I tend to agree. Without discounting the role that relievers play in the game as it's played today, I've always considered any statistic which can be accumulated with a single pitch (and a Save is one of them) is a worthless statistic.

So you'll only consider a player's home runs if they came deep in the count?

Valid point perhaps, but a dinger isn't viewed for hitters with quite the same weight a save does for pitchers. The media seems to equate saves as being the reliever equivalent to a win for a starter, and I think that's completely wrong to do.

[FiddySicks]

Morris will likely get in next year. The steroid kings will get passed by but I would like to see a jump, if not an induction for Bagwell. I think Piazza will come off in the 40% range.

I was just looking at the candidates over the next few years, and there is going to be an insane amount of guys going into the hall. Compared to how he'll be against, it may be a tough case for him as of now. I do wanna see him there.

I will say this though. Despite the steroid issues, if Barry Bonds and Rodger Clemens aren't first ballot hall of famers, it'll be really hard for me to ever take the voting process seriously ever again.

[JayJaxon]

Lee Smith's support I just don't get especially all the people that voted for him and didn't vote for Kevin Brown. I've said before I throw out the save rule when evaluating relief pitchers. I look at it the same way I look at the QB rating in football. It gives you some indication of how good a player is, but its a rough estimate at best, and I would say completely made up stat at worst.

I tend to agree. Without discounting the role that relievers play in the game as it's played today, I've always considered any statistic which can be accumulated with a single pitch (and a Save is one of them) is a worthless statistic.

So you'll only consider a player's home runs if they came deep in the count?

Valid point perhaps, but a dinger isn't viewed for hitters with quite the same weight a save does for pitchers. The media seems to equate saves as being the reliever equivalent to a win for a starter, and I think that's completely wrong to do.

Adding to the discussion, we are seeing wins valued even less now than ever before. Cy Young winners don't have to post 20-win seasons anymore.

[JayJaxon]

Morris will likely get in next year. The steroid kings will get passed by but I would like to see a jump, if not an induction for Bagwell. I think Piazza will come off in the 40% range.

I was just looking at the candidates over the next few years, and there is going to be an insane amount of guys going into the hall. Compared to how he'll be against, it may be a tough case for him as of now. I do wanna see him there.

I will say this though. Despite the steroid issues, if Barry Bonds and Rodger Clemens aren't first ballot hall of famers, it'll be really hard for me to ever take the voting process seriously ever again.

I agree with what you are saying here. I actually don't take the voting process seriously now. I think there are way too many voters with their own agenda. Why did it take Eddie Mathews 5 tries to get in? Who wouldn't put R. Henderson or C. Ripken or T. Gwynn on their ballot? Why would someone refuse to vote for Mays, Aaron, or Mantle to give them 100%? If some writers can't vote for no-brainers like those guys, they don't deserve a vote in my opinion.

[infrared41]

I will say this though. Despite the steroid issues, if Barry Bonds and Rodger Clemens aren't first ballot hall of famers, it'll be really hard for me to ever take the voting process seriously ever again.

Bonds was already a hall of famer when his head started growing. Not so sure about Clemens.

[NJTank]

Morris will likely get in next year. The steroid kings will get passed by but I would like to see a jump, if not an induction for Bagwell. I think Piazza will come off in the 40% range.

Nobody has ever linked Piazza to steroids.

[pmoehrin]

Morris will likely get in next year. The steroid kings will get passed by but I would like to see a jump, if not an induction for Bagwell. I think Piazza will come off in the 40% range.

I was just looking at the candidates over the next few years, and there is going to be an insane amount of guys going into the hall. Compared to how he'll be against, it may be a tough case for him as of now. I do wanna see him there.

I will say this though. Despite the steroid issues, if Barry Bonds and Rodger Clemens aren't first ballot hall of famers, it'll be really hard for me to ever take the voting process seriously ever again.

I agree with what you are saying here. I actually don't take the voting process seriously now. I think there are way too many voters with their own agenda. Why did it take Eddie Mathews 5 tries to get in? Who wouldn't put R. Henderson or C. Ripken or T. Gwynn on their ballot? Why would someone refuse to vote for Mays, Aaron, or Mantle to give them 100%? If some writers can't vote for no-brainers like those guys, they don't deserve a vote in my opinion.

The voting process has always been incredibly politically driven. Its the same way across all the sports.

My view has always been it should be far less people deciding things and it should be people who have proven themselves not to be swayed too much by general opinion and are posses incredible knowledge of the game such Bob Costas, Bill James and Vin Scully. Those guys have proven to me they have a great perspective of where the game has been and where it is today. That will never happen though because it would require the writers to give up their say. Nobody is going to give up a say in something like the Baseball HOF.

The only two things I would recommend is that there be a player minimum set and the writers should have to meet and discuss who they vote, and who they don't rather then just mailing in their ballot.

[infrared41]

The only two things I would recommend is that there be a player minimum set and the writers should have to meet and discuss who they vote, and who they don't rather then just mailing in their ballot.

Agree 100% on the discussion thing. Couldn't disagree more on the player minimum. It does nothing but lower standards.

[BBTV]

Ha yeah, have like a three-day trial or something. Someone calls up a name of someone that they support, and then the debates begin. They could even call the players' mistresses up as character witnesses if necessary. Then take a vote, and have it all on TV.

[GriffinM6]

Where's Craig Biggio, I'm pretty dure he retired in 2007. He'd be a sure first ballot HOF.

[Dexter Morgan]

Morris will likely get in next year. The steroid kings will get passed by but I would like to see a jump, if not an induction for Bagwell. I think Piazza will come off in the 40% range.

Nobody has ever linked Piazza to steroids.

Longtime baseball writer and Hall of Fame voter Murray Chass says hello.

[pmoehrin]

Morris will likely get in next year. The steroid kings will get passed by but I would like to see a jump, if not an induction for Bagwell. I think Piazza will come off in the 40% range.

Nobody has ever linked Piazza to steroids.

Longtime baseball writer and Hall of Fame voter Murray Chass says hello.

You mean the old guy who quit/was fired from the NY Times because he's 30 years behind the times?

I've read a few of his articles and in every single one of them he just comes off as this bitter old man who can't deal with the fact that his opinions about the game lost out.

[FiddySicks]

I will say this though. Despite the steroid issues, if Barry Bonds and Rodger Clemens aren't first ballot hall of famers, it'll be really hard for me to ever take the voting process seriously ever again.

Bonds was already a hall of famer when his head started growing. Not so sure about Clemens.

Really? I would've figured Clemens was as well, but you could be right. But with a total of seven Cy Young awards and at least three before the roids issues (at least I'd assume) I think he's a solid candidate.

[infrared41]

I will say this though. Despite the steroid issues, if Barry Bonds and Rodger Clemens aren't first ballot hall of famers, it'll be really hard for me to ever take the voting process seriously ever again.

Bonds was already a hall of famer when his head started growing. Not so sure about Clemens.

Really? I would've figured Clemens was as well, but you could be right. But with a total of seven Cy Young awards and at least three before the roids issues (at least I'd assume) I think he's a solid candidate.

Honestly, I'd have to take a look at Clemens pre-roids. He may be there.

[Dexter Morgan]

Morris will likely get in next year. The steroid kings will get passed by but I would like to see a jump, if not an induction for Bagwell. I think Piazza will come off in the 40% range.

Nobody has ever linked Piazza to steroids.

Longtime baseball writer and Hall of Fame voter Murray Chass says hello.

You mean the old guy who quit/was fired from the NY Times because he's 30 years behind the times?

I've read a few of his articles and in every single one of them he just comes off as this bitter old man who can't deal with the fact that his opinions about the game lost out.

Regardless of your opinion of him.. he's somebody.

Chass also isn't the only sports writer who linked Piazza to steroids. Jeff Pearlman did as well.

I don't have enough information to say Piazza definitely did steroids but saying no one has linked him to steroid use simply isn't true. That is why I responded.

Hell even local writer Joel Sherman wrote about his suspicion.

[Dexter Morgan]

Double Post

[infrared41]

Morris will likely get in next year. The steroid kings will get passed by but I would like to see a jump, if not an induction for Bagwell. I think Piazza will come off in the 40% range.

Nobody has ever linked Piazza to steroids.

Longtime baseball writer and Hall of Fame voter Murray Chass says hello.

You mean the old guy who quit/was fired from the NY Times because he's 30 years behind the times?

I've read a few of his articles and in every single one of them he just comes off as this bitter old man who can't deal with the fact that his opinions about the game lost out.

Regardless of your opinion of him.. he's somebody.

Chass also isn't the only sports writer who linked Piazza to steroids. Jeff Pearlman did as well.

I don't have enough information to say Piazza definitely did steroids but saying no one has linked him to steroid use simply isn't true. That is why I responded.

Hell even local writer Joel Sherman wrote about his suspicion.

For what it's worth, if I had no choice but to bet my last 50 bucks on whether or not Piazza was juicing, I'm betting that last 50 bucks that he was.

[pmoehrin]

Morris will likely get in next year. The steroid kings will get passed by but I would like to see a jump, if not an induction for Bagwell. I think Piazza will come off in the 40% range.

Nobody has ever linked Piazza to steroids.

Longtime baseball writer and Hall of Fame voter Murray Chass says hello.

You mean the old guy who quit/was fired from the NY Times because he's 30 years behind the times?

I've read a few of his articles and in every single one of them he just comes off as this bitter old man who can't deal with the fact that his opinions about the game lost out.

Regardless of your opinion of him.. he's somebody.

Chass also isn't the only sports writer who linked Piazza to steroids. Jeff Pearlman did as well.

I don't have enough information to say Piazza definitely did steroids but saying no one has linked him to steroid use simply isn't true. That is why I responded.

Hell even local writer Joel Sherman wrote about his suspicion.

Was Mike Piazza on steroids for his career? I would say there is a good chance that he was. I've always thought though that the majority not the minority of guys were using during the late 90's to early 2000's. If the actual list was ever published I'm sure there would be names that would shock people. Guys who you never even suspect were probably using throughout much of their careers.

Even guys with no evidence against them at all such as Jim Thome, I would say were more likely then not on the juice.

My question is what is their point with all of this? If your really going to go after guys who were suspected users on second hand evidence, lets just throw out an entire decade of baseball. It was what it was. I'm not buying for one second that many of the same guys that helped create this era are now these great moral crusaders on a quest to rid the game of PED's once and for all. Your writing these stories simply because that's what the public wants to hear in which case your just a puppet. There's no skill or morals required to be that.

As for Chass to me guys like that should have no attention paid to them. This is the same guy who accused Stan Musial (a guy who he never covered during his career) as being a racist nearly 50 years after his playing career was over based on second hand evidence of a story just as old. Even if he's right, its not his place to call out Musial. There's plenty of other guys that can speak up for themselves with first knowledge, so screw whatever that guy has to say about anything related to baseball. Like I said earlier I think he's just some bitter old man desperate for attention that can't deal with the changing times. And any good point he makes is probably going to be made by somebody anyway, so what is the point of reading anything he writes?

[HedleyLamarr]

Where's Craig Biggio, I'm pretty dure he retired in 2007. He'd be a sure first ballot HOF.

One more year.

He's only sat out four seasons so far....