Ozzie Guillen

[speedy]

Actually, there have been protests and as far as boycotts or whatever, they haven't played at home since it happened so how could you say "there's no evidence"? Plus the Marlins didn't wait long to hand down the punishment. He apologized, admitted what he said was wrong and they announced the suspension, all rather quickly after the incident. That quick turnaround will probably help smooth things over a bit as it showed they weren't gonna stand for it, but also that they believe Guillen was truly sorry and deserved a second chance. If this was to happen, the earlier it did the better. He's still new to the team and they're gonna give him a break more so now than they would if it had been later in the season or next year.

Protests don't equal a threat to the business.

You're not a very smart lad, are you?

[Saintsfan]

Actually, there have been protests and as far as boycotts or whatever, they haven't played at home since it happened so how could you say "there's no evidence"? Plus the Marlins didn't wait long to hand down the punishment. He apologized, admitted what he said was wrong and they announced the suspension, all rather quickly after the incident. That quick turnaround will probably help smooth things over a bit as it showed they weren't gonna stand for it, but also that they believe Guillen was truly sorry and deserved a second chance. If this was to happen, the earlier it did the better. He's still new to the team and they're gonna give him a break more so now than they would if it had been later in the season or next year.

Protests don't equal a threat to the business.

You're not a very smart lad, are you?

Noone loses money because there are guys with banners outside their stadium.

[infrared41]

Noone loses money because there are guys with banners outside their stadium.

What if those guys outside the stadium are holding banners instead of using the tickets they purchased to attend the game? Losing even one dollar is still losing money.

[-kj]

It'd be great if this discussion could become a little less about personal attacks.

[infrared41]

It'd be great if this discussion could become a little less about personal attacks.

My apologies. I got frustrated and acted more like an ass than usual. I'll edit it accordingly.

[Saintsfan]

Noone loses money because there are guys with banners outside their stadium.

In America we type in English. It's no one. What if those guys outside the stadium are holding banners instead of using the tickets they purchased to attend the game? I can't wait for you to tell me that I can't prove that they may have bought tickets to the game and decided to protest instead. Losing even one dollar is still losing money.

Franchises don't live and die by concessions. If someones bought a ticket they have done their bit.

But the point is really that the Marlins won't live or die as a business by rash statements by Ozzie Guillen. They live and die by how the team performs on the field. In 6 months, heck probably 2 weeks, no one will care what Guillen thinks of Castro.

[infrared41]

Noone loses money because there are guys with banners outside their stadium.

In America we type in English. It's no one. What if those guys outside the stadium are holding banners instead of using the tickets they purchased to attend the game? I can't wait for you to tell me that I can't prove that they may have bought tickets to the game and decided to protest instead. Losing even one dollar is still losing money.

Franchises don't live and die by concessions. If someones bought a ticket they have done their bit.

But the point is really that the Marlins won't live or die as a business by rash statements by Ozzie Guillen. They live and die by how the team performs on the field. In 6 months, heck probably 2 weeks, no one will care what Guillen thinks of Castro.

Wanna place a friendly wager on that? I'm still betting he doesn't survive this. The team has been on the road so we don't know what the reaction from the home fans is going to be. We'll have a much better idea once they return to Miami.

And losing even one dollar of concessions is still losing money. That's indisputable.

[McCall]

Noone loses money because there are guys with banners outside their stadium.

In America we type in English. It's no one. What if those guys outside the stadium are holding banners instead of using the tickets they purchased to attend the game? I can't wait for you to tell me that I can't prove that they may have bought tickets to the game and decided to protest instead. Losing even one dollar is still losing money.

Franchises don't live and die by concessions. If someones bought a ticket they have done their bit.

But the point is really that the Marlins won't live or die as a business by rash statements by Ozzie Guillen. They live and die by how the team performs on the field. In 6 months, heck probably 2 weeks, no one will care what Guillen thinks of Castro.

When your fanbase is outside protesting, they're not inside spending money. And if they say "screw you" to protestors, how do you others are gonna view that? It's not like they're protesting a bad hire, signing or firing. He said he "loved and respected" a dictator, basically their Hitler. And yes, I have heard that term used by some Cuban-Americans during this. He oppressed, tortured and murdered people who didn't agree with his views. Not far from Hitler. Just not on as big a scale as his was confined to one island country and Hitler tried to take over all of Europe. But similar nonetheless.

[Saintsfan]

Noone loses money because there are guys with banners outside their stadium.

In America we type in English. It's no one. What if those guys outside the stadium are holding banners instead of using the tickets they purchased to attend the game? I can't wait for you to tell me that I can't prove that they may have bought tickets to the game and decided to protest instead. Losing even one dollar is still losing money.

Franchises don't live and die by concessions. If someones bought a ticket they have done their bit.

But the point is really that the Marlins won't live or die as a business by rash statements by Ozzie Guillen. They live and die by how the team performs on the field. In 6 months, heck probably 2 weeks, no one will care what Guillen thinks of Castro.

When your fanbase is outside protesting, they're not inside spending money. And if they say "screw you" to protestors, how do you others are gonna view that? It's not like they're protesting a bad hire, signing or firing. He said he "loved and respected" a dictator, basically their Hitler. And yes, I have heard that term used by some Cuban-Americans during this. He oppressed, tortured and murdered people who didn't agree with his views. Not far from Hitler. Just not on as big a scale as his was confined to one island country and Hitler tried to take over all of Europe. But similar nonetheless.

Is there any evidence that the protestors were or are Marlins fans? Some maybe, but my guess is a lot of them were simply anti Castro protestors taking the chance to vent. That seems to me what a lot of this really is. (And to an extent that's fair enough in the circumstances). A NY Times leader hit the nail pretty much a couple of days ago. The Marlins over reacted to a politically mobile and powerful lobby, after their manager made some regretable but over hyped comments.

[The_Admiral]

And actually I would suggest a rebrand is a bigger threat to a sports business than a tamping down of a minor media controversy.

Come to think of it, there's that one guy here who worked for the Marlins and got fired, and he's even more upset about ditching teal than Cubans are about Ozzie loving Fidel Castro for not dying.

Franchises don't live and die by concessions. If someones bought a ticket they have done their bit.

um no they absolutely do live and die by concessions, as well as parking. That's why teams comp tickets so they can get you in the building to buy $9 beers, that's why teams that don't control ancillary revenue streams don't compete very well. Even movie theaters, if you look at the slim profit margins on the tickets themselves due to distribution fees vis-a-vis the vast ones on Skittles, are more accurately in the concession business than the movie business.

The exception to this is the NFL, where you make all the money you need on leaguewide television contracts before you've played a down. Everyone else, you really want to sell pretzels, beer, and parking.

[McCall]

And actually I would suggest a rebrand is a bigger threat to a sports business than a tamping down of a minor media controversy.

Come to think of it, there's that one guy here who worked for the Marlins and got fired, and he's even more upset about ditching teal than Cubans are about Ozzie loving Fidel Castro for not dying.

Franchises don't live and die by concessions. If someones bought a ticket they have done their bit.

um no they absolutely do live and die by concessions, as well as parking. That's why teams comp tickets so they can get you in the building to buy $9 beers, that's why teams that don't control ancillary revenue streams don't compete very well. Even movie theaters, if you look at the slim profit margins on the tickets themselves due to distribution fees vis-a-vis the vast ones on Skittles, are more accurately in the concession business than the movie business.

The exception to this is the NFL, where you make all the money you need on leaguewide television contracts before you've played a down. Everyone else, you really want to sell pretzels, beer, and parking.

As someone who worked at a ballpark for 5 years, I can without a doubt tell you concessions is a big part of their revenue.

And protesters, fans or not, are not a good thing to have outside your brand new ballpark in a neighborhood made up of the citizens with that heritage. It really seems like straws are being grasped for for the sake of ego with some of the arguments being made here

[rams80]

You deserve a decent response, so here goes.

I guess my issue with this is when does it end? If Batista was an unjust ruler who got what he deserved along with his supporters, then what about Castro and his supporters? You claim that if the pro-Batista camp returned to Cuba on their own terms there would reprisals. Well by your own logic those reprisals would be deserved because...

You admit that Castro's rule hasn't been just. So if Batista and his followers deserved what they got because they was unjust and benefited from that injustice then the same can be said about Castro and his followers. So then the hypothetical returning Batista group (or whatever the makeup of a returning victorious anti-Castro contingent would be) would be justified in a little payback right? Castro reaped what he sowed, right? Then that would turn the new group into unjust rulers who would be deserving of reprisals themselves. It just creates a potential cycle of violence. You could say "well then ideally just let Castro's regime survive" but I don't see letting a regime that imprisons or executes you for disagreeing with the ruling party as an ideal situation.

It's not. It's still better than the old set up, though, which is sometimes the best you can hope for at any point. As for the cycle of violence, yes it does need to end, but I think it needs to end with some sign of contrition out of the guys who got overthrown in the first place. I've never seen a whole lot of regret regarding the 1950s out of that bunch, which indicates to me lessons haven't been learned.

That said, yes ideally Cuba gets a liberal democracy going sooner or later. However...

What's the best way to improve things? Once Castro dies (of old age because really, what else is it going to be at this point?) have the Communist Party of Cuba state that they've achieved the aims of the Revolution, those being a better standard of living and economic independence. Now that the Revolution's goals have been fulfilled the dictatorship of the proletariat can end and democracy can be be eased in. The Communist Party of Cuba doesn't necessarily disband, so much as give up political its political monopoly and becomes one party in a new multi-party system that's gradually introduced.

I think there are going to be plenty of US-born hurdles facing any transition period. Let's assume they take a page from just about every single democracy and install elections and empty the prisons, but property stays in the hands of its current holders.

That ain't going to fly with the Batista group and THEY in turn are going to try to rile up the base so that there's probably a 1 out of 3 chance that a Democratic government and a 90% chance a Republican government is forced to object to the newly Democratic Cuban government in some way or another (take your pick-insufficiently representative, commie in sheep's clothing, does not respect property rights of others). That embargo may not go away even with reforms, and if the embargo is still a going concern-that new government is not going to last.

Eh, I don't buy it. Castro's regime is a Communist regime. Communist regimes the world over have a pretty consistent track record. They all outlaw freedom of assembly, the press, and speech. They all jail or execute those who don't confirm to the dogma of the ruling Communist party. They're all pretty horrific, all things considered. Castro's oppression isn't something unique to him that can be pinned on his proximity to a hostile United States. Men like him have done pretty much the same thing in the name of the Glorious Proletarian Revolution the world over since 1917.

I think the US' behavior to its "petulant" ex-colony and the embargo did and do exacerbate the situation with Cuba. That's a point that needs to be considered.

[The_Admiral]

There is growing speculation that Guillen will be dismissed, but that decision hasn’t been made. There is a very strong chance Guillen returns. What could change is the chain of command in the front office. Roles for those already on staff may be different.

[NJTank]

Ozzie is too fun to be fired

[Gothamite]

I too would like to see him stick around, if only to thumb our nose at the winging anti-Castros that have had an outsized influence on our foreign policy for far too long.

[The_Admiral]

Well, that's stupid (though we should normalize relations with Cuba eventually). He's a bad manager and not worth the headache.

I don't feel like digging back through here, but I'm sure I predicted that he would piss off Loria/Samson quickly and get himself fired so he could run back to Daddy Reinsdorf.

[Gothamite]

True, but I'm not a Marlins fan. I'm happy with Guillen staying on for many reasons.

[Island_Style]

Ozzie needs to be fired for one reason and one reason only. He is a simpleton who lost control of his clubhouse. No one on that roster respects him.

[The_Admiral]

I think it's pretty funny how the White Sox kept more or less the same roster (or worse), but replaced Ozzie Guillen with a bag of sawdust, and played like a competent team for five-and-a-half months.

[The_Admiral]

Fired.