Cleveland Scene Article on Chief Wahoo

[Jinjoe]

Exactly. The Braves' name and logos are respectful, and that's really the bottom line. Now the tomahawk chop and that chant may be another matter but respect can be done as far as the name and logos. FSU is another example. As for the Redskins, logo is fine but the name should go.

I agree. The Redskins name must be censored! I also think the word "Black" should be taken out of the Blackhawks name since there is a slight chance a small number of African Americans could take issue with it. While were at it, lets get rid of the Cleveland Browns name too! Wouldn't want that to get misconstrued...

But why stop at race? I think we should force the Blue Jackets to get rid of all references to the civil war. How do you think people in the South feel? We don't want to offend anyone so I don't think it's a question of "if" but "when." The Devils should also rebrand since it's offensive to Christians, the Capitals should rebrand to appease Libertarians, the Avalanche for boarders, the Flames for house fire victims, the Oilers for environmentalists, etc!

I've been reading through this thread and I've seen plenty of ridiculous statements here, but this has to be the most absurd one I have seen yet. This is a typical cop out maneuver that gets used whenever issues of this nature are discussed. Throw a bunch of exaggerated examples which has little or nothing to do with the point at hand to deflect from the central issue. Here's a simple reason why the word "Redskins" is a valid issue, and the rest of you examples have no relevance to this discussion, "Redskin" was created and used for the purpose of demeaning a minority group, by those who are not a part of that same group. None of your other examples has that distinction.

[CrazyAnna]

If it's just a 'picture on a baseball hat' then there shouldn't be any problem with changing it, no?

Not that I care, but couldn't that be used for the exact same reason to keep it as well?

Except those of us who want to see Wahoo deep-sixed yesterday aren't the ones claiming it's "just a picture."

True, but his argument could be used both ways. That's all.

[Morgan33]

It sets a precedent and that was my point. Nice to see it go completely over your heads

[IceCap]

It sets a precedent and that was my point. Nice to see it go completely over your heads

It really doesn't. Redskins is a racial slur. That's why people want to see it changed.

That doesn't apply to any of your other examples.

[PoppersPop]

If it's just a 'picture on a baseball hat' then there shouldn't be any problem with changing it, no?

Not that I care, but couldn't that be used for the exact same reason to keep it as well?

Exactly. That's why the whole "there are bigger problems in the world than a racist baseball logo" argument is such a red herring. You can't knock people for proposing its removal by saying "move on, bigger problems out there" and then throw a huge fit about wanting to keep it at the same time.

[illwauk]

It sets a precedent and that was my point. Nice to see it go completely over your heads

A precedent that teams can no longer base their identity on racial slurs? The horror....

[oldschoolvikings]

It sets a precedent and that was my point. Nice to see it go completely over your heads

Yeah, that pretty much went over no one's head. I think you're overstating the brilliance of your post just a bit.

[kpbl_design]

I don't think that anybody's denying that it's iconic. That's a neutral judgment.

The problem is that it is not only iconic, it's a racist caricature of a group of people. A group of people who aren't entirely thrilled with it.

I don't know how one can decide that some racism isn't "harmful".

I'm pretty sure I said I could see how people would be upset with the logo, and as a matter of fact, I don't recall ever saying my opinion on Chief Wahoo was right or wrong... it was just an opinion. What I'm trying to figure out is why you went on the offensive?

I apologize if I've offended anyone with the use of my avatar, it's ignorance to the sensitivity of the issue... my bad.

Ya know, there's a lot of people on here talking about problems they have with this "offensive" mark, but you're talking to people who ultimately don't make the decision to nix an entire identity.

Those who are offended by Indians' identity should stop talking about it on the message boards and write to the MLB and the Cleveland Indians organization and demand a change.

[Jinjoe]

I don't think that anybody's denying that it's iconic. That's a neutral judgment.

The problem is that it is not only iconic, it's a racist caricature of a group of people. A group of people who aren't entirely thrilled with it.

I don't know how one can decide that some racism isn't "harmful".

I'm pretty sure I said I could see how people would be upset with the logo, and as a matter of fact, I don't recall ever saying my opinion on Chief Wahoo was right or wrong... it was just an opinion. What I'm trying to figure out is why you went on the offensive?

I apologize if I've offended anyone with the use of my avatar, it's ignorance to the sensitivity of the issue... my bad.

Ya know, there's a lot of people on here talking about problems they have with this "offensive" mark, but you're talking to people who ultimately don't make the decision to nix an entire identity.

Those who are offended by Indians' identity should stop talking about it on the message boards and write to the MLB and the Cleveland Indians organization and demand a change.

Why not do both? It's true that no one on this board has the authority to change the identity, but part of getting things done,and bringing about change, particularly on a grassroots level is having conservations about it, whether they're face to face, or on forums such as this one.

[kpbl_design]

I don't think that anybody's denying that it's iconic. That's a neutral judgment.

The problem is that it is not only iconic, it's a racist caricature of a group of people. A group of people who aren't entirely thrilled with it.

I don't know how one can decide that some racism isn't "harmful".

I'm pretty sure I said I could see how people would be upset with the logo, and as a matter of fact, I don't recall ever saying my opinion on Chief Wahoo was right or wrong... it was just an opinion. What I'm trying to figure out is why you went on the offensive?

I apologize if I've offended anyone with the use of my avatar, it's ignorance to the sensitivity of the issue... my bad.

Ya know, there's a lot of people on here talking about problems they have with this "offensive" mark, but you're talking to people who ultimately don't make the decision to nix an entire identity.

Those who are offended by Indians' identity should stop talking about it on the message boards and write to the MLB and the Cleveland Indians organization and demand a change.

Why not do both? It's true that no one on this board has the authority to change the identity, but part of getting things done,and bringing about change, particularly on a grassroots level is having conservations about it, whether they're face to face, or on forums such as this one.

It's one thing to inform, it's another for people to beat their drums incessantly in order to be heard... WITHOUT GOING TO THE SOURCE OF THEIR PROBLEMS FIRST. I would like to ask all of those in opposition of the Indians identity if they have reached out to the Indians organization or the MLB and stated their displeasure of how Native Americans are portrayed...

[BigBubba]

If it offends you don't watch Indians games

And if racism offended African-Americans in the 30s, they shouldn't have ridden buses, right? If a bigoted article in a newspaper offended you, the logical course of action would be to just not read it anymore, because that will solve the problem, right? I think I'll put a racist sign on my lawn and tell people who don't like it not to drive by.

(While the first example is to a greater extent, the message stays the same - telling people to ignore something racist if they're offended doesn't cut it).

Exactly. The Braves' name and logos are respectful, and that's really the bottom line. Now the tomahawk chop and that chant may be another matter but respect can be done as far as the name and logos. FSU is another example. As for the Redskins, logo is fine but the name should go.

I agree. The Redskins name must be censored! I also think the word "Black" should be taken out of the Blackhawks name since there is a slight chance a small number of African Americans could take issue with it. While were at it, lets get rid of the Cleveland Browns name too! Wouldn't want that to get misconstrued...

But why stop at race? I think we should force the Blue Jackets to get rid of all references to the civil war. How do you think people in the South feel? We don't want to offend anyone so I don't think it's a question of "if" but "when." The Devils should also rebrand since it's offensive to Christians, the Capitals should rebrand to appease Libertarians, the Avalanche for boarders, the Flames for house fire victims, the Oilers for environmentalists, etc!

So Yellowskins for an team with an Oriental Asian as their logo is a perfectly acceptable name, correct?

[Jinjoe]

I don't think that anybody's denying that it's iconic. That's a neutral judgment.

The problem is that it is not only iconic, it's a racist caricature of a group of people. A group of people who aren't entirely thrilled with it.

I don't know how one can decide that some racism isn't "harmful".

I'm pretty sure I said I could see how people would be upset with the logo, and as a matter of fact, I don't recall ever saying my opinion on Chief Wahoo was right or wrong... it was just an opinion. What I'm trying to figure out is why you went on the offensive?

I apologize if I've offended anyone with the use of my avatar, it's ignorance to the sensitivity of the issue... my bad.

Ya know, there's a lot of people on here talking about problems they have with this "offensive" mark, but you're talking to people who ultimately don't make the decision to nix an entire identity.

Those who are offended by Indians' identity should stop talking about it on the message boards and write to the MLB and the Cleveland Indians organization and demand a change.

Why not do both? It's true that no one on this board has the authority to change the identity, but part of getting things done,and bringing about change, particularly on a grassroots level is having conservations about it, whether they're face to face, or on forums such as this one.

It's one thing to inform, it's another for people to beat their drums incessantly in order to be heard... WITHOUT GOING TO THE SOURCE OF THEIR PROBLEMS FIRST. I would like to ask all of those in opposition of the Indians identity if they have reached out to the Indians organization or the MLB and stated their displeasure of how Native Americans are portrayed...

How exactly is this occurring in this thread, or on this forum for that matter?

WITHOUT GOING TO THE SOURCE OF THEIR PROBLEMS FIRST.

Now do automatically know this the case for those who are in opposition to the logo, or are you just assuming?

[charger77]

If it offends you don't watch Indians games

And if racism offended African-Americans in the 30s, they shouldn't have ridden buses, right? If a bigoted article in a newspaper offended you, the logical course of action would be to just not read it anymore, because that will solve the problem, right? I think I'll put a racist sign on my lawn and tell people who don't like it not to drive by.

Actually, the Montgomery Bus Boycott is considered one of the key events of the Civil Rights Movement.

In reality though, strongly worded letters and cath phrases will not cause a change. Boyoctt Cleveland Indian games, do not buy their merchandise and boycott their sponsors. Once ownership see that Wahoo is costing them money, they will change. Have the Indians become the worst attended road team in the majors and the other teams and the league will start to clamp down on them as well.

[BigBubba]

If it offends you don't watch Indians games

And if racism offended African-Americans in the 30s, they shouldn't have ridden buses, right? If a bigoted article in a newspaper offended you, the logical course of action would be to just not read it anymore, because that will solve the problem, right? I think I'll put a racist sign on my lawn and tell people who don't like it not to drive by.

Actually, the Montgomery Bus Boycott is considered one of the key events of the Civil Rights Movement.

In reality though, strongly worded letters and cath phrases will not cause a change. Boyoctt Cleveland Indian games, do not buy their merchandise and boycott their sponsors. Once ownership see that Wahoo is costing them money, they will change. Have the Indians become the worst attended road team in the majors and the other teams and the league will start to clamp down on them as well.

They're averaging 14K a game, so I doubt they're doing well on that front anyways. Half of nothing is still nothing.

[-kj]

Ya know, there's a lot of people on here talking about problems they have with this "offensive" mark, but you're talking to people who ultimately don't make the decision to nix an entire identity.

Those who are offended by Indians' identity should stop talking about it on the message boards and write to the MLB and the Cleveland Indians organization and demand a change.

What's this? People are discussing things on a discussion board? What is the world coming to?

[sportstar1212]

Ya know, there's a lot of people on here talking about problems they have with this "offensive" mark, but you're talking to people who ultimately don't make the decision to nix an entire identity.

Those who are offended by Indians' identity should stop talking about it on the message boards and write to the MLB and the Cleveland Indians organization and demand a change.

What's this? People are discussing things on a discussion board? What is the world coming to?

What he means is that if something really bothers you, instead of bitching about it on a message board, you should do something about it.

[-kj]

Ya know, there's a lot of people on here talking about problems they have with this "offensive" mark, but you're talking to people who ultimately don't make the decision to nix an entire identity.

Those who are offended by Indians' identity should stop talking about it on the message boards and write to the MLB and the Cleveland Indians organization and demand a change.

What's this? People are discussing things on a discussion board? What is the world coming to?

What he means is that if something really bothers you, instead of bitching about it on a message board, you should do something about it.

What's this? People are discussing things on a discussion board? What is the world coming to?

No, really. It's a discussion board. People discuss things here. What's difficult about this idea? It doesn't have to be an either/or proposition. It seems what you're trying to say is "I don't like your viewpoint; go away." That's just going to make me tap the sign again.

[kpbl_design]

I don't think that anybody's denying that it's iconic. That's a neutral judgment.

The problem is that it is not only iconic, it's a racist caricature of a group of people. A group of people who aren't entirely thrilled with it.

I don't know how one can decide that some racism isn't "harmful".

I'm pretty sure I said I could see how people would be upset with the logo, and as a matter of fact, I don't recall ever saying my opinion on Chief Wahoo was right or wrong... it was just an opinion. What I'm trying to figure out is why you went on the offensive?

I apologize if I've offended anyone with the use of my avatar, it's ignorance to the sensitivity of the issue... my bad.

Ya know, there's a lot of people on here talking about problems they have with this "offensive" mark, but you're talking to people who ultimately don't make the decision to nix an entire identity.

Those who are offended by Indians' identity should stop talking about it on the message boards and write to the MLB and the Cleveland Indians organization and demand a change.

Why not do both? It's true that no one on this board has the authority to change the identity, but part of getting things done,and bringing about change, particularly on a grassroots level is having conservations about it, whether they're face to face, or on forums such as this one.

It's one thing to inform, it's another for people to beat their drums incessantly in order to be heard... WITHOUT GOING TO THE SOURCE OF THEIR PROBLEMS FIRST. I would like to ask all of those in opposition of the Indians identity if they have reached out to the Indians organization or the MLB and stated their displeasure of how Native Americans are portrayed...

How exactly is this occurring in this thread, or on this forum for that matter?

WITHOUT GOING TO THE SOURCE OF THEIR PROBLEMS FIRST.

Now do automatically know this the case for those who are in opposition to the logo, or are you just assuming?

To answer your first question, it's very easy to go through this entire thread and read people saying the exact same time and time again.

To answer your second question, I coulda swore I just asked the question if those who strongly opposed the logo reached out to the MLB or the Indians organization themselves... you're the one that brought up assumptions.

[sportstar1212]

Ya know, there's a lot of people on here talking about problems they have with this "offensive" mark, but you're talking to people who ultimately don't make the decision to nix an entire identity.

Those who are offended by Indians' identity should stop talking about it on the message boards and write to the MLB and the Cleveland Indians organization and demand a change.

What's this? People are discussing things on a discussion board? What is the world coming to?

What he means is that if something really bothers you, instead of bitching about it on a message board, you should do something about it.

What's this? People are discussing things on a discussion board? What is the world coming to?

No, really. It's a discussion board. People discuss things here. What's difficult about this idea? It doesn't have to be an either/or proposition. It seems what you're trying to say is "I don't like your viewpoint; go away." That's just going to make me tap the sign again.

What I mean is that people who want the Chief Wahoo logo to go are just taking it here instead of emailing the team, boycotting merch with Wahoo logo on it, etc. And I'm not trying to say what you think I'm saying.

[Jinjoe]

Ya know, there's a lot of people on here talking about problems they have with this "offensive" mark, but you're talking to people who ultimately don't make the decision to nix an entire identity.

Those who are offended by Indians' identity should stop talking about it on the message boards and write to the MLB and the Cleveland Indians organization and demand a change.

What's this? People are discussing things on a discussion board? What is the world coming to?

What he means is that if something really bothers you, instead of bitching about it on a message board, you should do something about it.

Or you can do both. And at the same time not automatically assume that because is one discussing, (not bitching about) the issue on a message board, that the person hasn't already done something about it.