Cleveland Scene Article on Chief Wahoo

[kpbl_design]

Ya know, there's a lot of people on here talking about problems they have with this "offensive" mark, but you're talking to people who ultimately don't make the decision to nix an entire identity.

Those who are offended by Indians' identity should stop talking about it on the message boards and write to the MLB and the Cleveland Indians organization and demand a change.

What's this? People are discussing things on a discussion board? What is the world coming to?

What he means is that if something really bothers you, instead of bitching about it on a message board, you should do something about it.

What's this? People are discussing things on a discussion board? What is the world coming to?

No, really. It's a discussion board. People discuss things here. What's difficult about this idea? It doesn't have to be an either/or proposition. It seems what you're trying to say is "I don't like your viewpoint; go away." That's just going to make me tap the sign again.

I don't care if people go away or not, it's almost like complaining to your friends because someone keeps calling you names. Eventually, even your closest friends will get sick and tired of your whining and tell you to sack up and handle the issue or quit your beyotchin'. I can respect if you've at least tried to resolve the matter at some point yourself, but if you're just complaining to complain, it's all noise to me.

[kpbl_design]

Ya know, there's a lot of people on here talking about problems they have with this "offensive" mark, but you're talking to people who ultimately don't make the decision to nix an entire identity.

Those who are offended by Indians' identity should stop talking about it on the message boards and write to the MLB and the Cleveland Indians organization and demand a change.

What's this? People are discussing things on a discussion board? What is the world coming to?

What he means is that if something really bothers you, instead of bitching about it on a message board, you should do something about it.

Or you can do both. And at the same time not automatically assume that because is one discussing, (not bitching about) the issue on a message board, that the person hasn't already done something about it.

Again, YOU brought up the word assumption.

[-kj]

Someone posted an article about a sports logo. We're talking about said article. It's right in the wheelhouse of this forum.

But apparently only one side of the argument needs to "go do something about it" rather than discuss the article.

*shrug*

[HolyStroke]

Why do people always have to find something to b*tch about? It's a goddam baseball team, you don't have to like them, you don't have to support them, you don't have to watch them, you can even pretend they don't exist if you dislike the name and logo that much. Whether this name and logo is changed of not will make absolutely no difference in your life.

And do people really think these teams named themselves "Indians" and "Redskins" to offend people? If so we'd probably have the "Detroit N******" and "Los Angeles S****"

I don't mean to offend anyone with the last part, but come on people, it's not like the owners said "I really hate Indians so I'm gonna name my team after them to piss them off"

[Jinjoe]

Ya know, there's a lot of people on here talking about problems they have with this "offensive" mark, but you're talking to people who ultimately don't make the decision to nix an entire identity.

Those who are offended by Indians' identity should stop talking about it on the message boards and write to the MLB and the Cleveland Indians organization and demand a change.

What's this? People are discussing things on a discussion board? What is the world coming to?

What he means is that if something really bothers you, instead of bitching about it on a message board, you should do something about it.

Or you can do both. And at the same time not automatically assume that because is one discussing, (not bitching about) the issue on a message board, that the person hasn't already done something about it.

Again, YOU brought up the word assumption.

Did you actually look at the quote I was referring to?

instead of bitching about it on a message board, you should do something about it.

when someone say this then obviously they are assuming that the person hasn't done anything outside of just discussing it on this board.

[BigBubba]

Why do people always have to find something to b*tch about? It's a goddam baseball team, you don't have to like them, you don't have to support them, you don't have to watch them, you can even pretend they don't exist if you dislike the name and logo that much. Whether this name and logo is changed of not will make absolutely no difference in your life.

And do people really think these teams named themselves "Indians" and "Redskins" to offend people? If so we'd probably have the "Detroit N******" and "Los Angeles S****"

I don't mean to offend anyone with the last part, but come on people, it's not like the owners said "I really hate Indians so I'm gonna name my team after them to piss them off"

No one ever said they were named their respective names with the intent to offend. However, times have changed in the decades since they were introduced to the point they they are no longer acceptable, and just plain racist.

Also, just because it doesn't affect anyone doesn't mean that it should be let go. If a bigoted article were published in some newspaper, while it wouldn't affect anyone, just not reading it wouldn't be enough. You can't just say "it doesn't affect you, so leave it!". If something out there is racist, it should be taken down/away/out. Just because it doesn't affect people does not mean that it isn't racist.

[Jinjoe]

Why do people always have to find something to b*tch about? It's a goddam baseball team, you don't have to like them, you don't have to support them, you don't have to watch them, you can even pretend they don't exist if you dislike the name and logo that much. Whether this name and logo is changed of not will make absolutely no difference in your life.

And do people really think these teams named themselves "Indians" and "Redskins" to offend people? If so we'd probably have the "Detroit N******" and "Los Angeles S****"

I don't mean to offend anyone with the last part, but come on people, it's not like the owners said "I really hate Indians so I'm gonna name my team after them to piss them off"

You know if people discussing this issue offends you so much you didn't have to click on this thread. You could've easily moved on to another one, yeah I know "SHOCKING" "MIND BLOWING" even . Whether people like or support the is not the point, the point is that you have a business franchise using a racist cartoon as its logo. Pretending it doesn't exist, does nothing to solve to problem in the grand scheme of things.

The intention of the owners doesn't mean jack, the logo is still offensive, and it shouldn't be used by any organization, let alone a sports franchise. Why is this so hard for you to figure out?

[kpbl_design]

https://secure.mlb.com/cle/fan_forum/suggestions.jsp

Mailing Address:

Progressive Field

2401 Ontario Street

Cleveland, OH, 44115

Phone Number: (216) 420-HITS

[charger77]

If it offends you don't watch Indians games

And if racism offended African-Americans in the 30s, they shouldn't have ridden buses, right? If a bigoted article in a newspaper offended you, the logical course of action would be to just not read it anymore, because that will solve the problem, right? I think I'll put a racist sign on my lawn and tell people who don't like it not to drive by.

Actually, the Montgomery Bus Boycott is considered one of the key events of the Civil Rights Movement.

In reality though, strongly worded letters and cath phrases will not cause a change. Boyoctt Cleveland Indian games, do not buy their merchandise and boycott their sponsors. Once ownership see that Wahoo is costing them money, they will change. Have the Indians become the worst attended road team in the majors and the other teams and the league will start to clamp down on them as well.

They're averaging 14K a game, so I doubt they're doing well on that front anyways. Half of nothing is still nothing.

Many would argue that 50% of something is better than 100% of nothing. Currently the Indians are in 1st in the Central if fans boycott a 1st place team, do not watch them on tv, do not buy their merchandise and boycott their sponsors the pressure will be felt.

[Jinjoe]

https://secure.mlb.com/cle/fan_forum/suggestions.jsp

Mailing Address:

Progressive Field

2401 Ontario Street

Cleveland, OH, 44115

Phone Number: (216) 420-HITS

So are you now leading the charge against the logo?

[OnWis97]

Why do people always have to find something to b*tch about? It's a goddam baseball team, you don't have to like them, you don't have to support them, you don't have to watch them, you can even pretend they don't exist if you dislike the name and logo that much. Whether this name and logo is changed of not will make absolutely no difference in your life.

And do people really think these teams named themselves "Indians" and "Redskins" to offend people? If so we'd probably have the "Detroit N******" and "Los Angeles S****"

I don't mean to offend anyone with the last part, but come on people, it's not like the owners said "I really hate Indians so I'm gonna name my team after them to piss them off"

Why did you censor these words? Stop bowing to the PC police.

[Jinjoe]

sorry doublepost

[kpbl_design]

https://secure.mlb.com/cle/fan_forum/suggestions.jsp

Mailing Address:

Progressive Field

2401 Ontario Street

Cleveland, OH, 44115

Phone Number: (216) 420-HITS

So are you now leading the charge against the logo?

Not at all, sir... just tired of talking' about it.

[sportstar1212]

https://secure.mlb.com/cle/fan_forum/suggestions.jsp

Mailing Address:

Progressive Field

2401 Ontario Street

Cleveland, OH, 44115

Phone Number: (216) 420-HITS

So are you now leading the charge against the logo?

Not at all, sir... just tired of talking' about it.

Same here. I want this thread graveyarded.

[Jinjoe]

https://secure.mlb.com/cle/fan_forum/suggestions.jsp

Mailing Address:

Progressive Field

2401 Ontario Street

Cleveland, OH, 44115

Phone Number: (216) 420-HITS

So are you now leading the charge against the logo?

Not at all, sir... just tired of talking' about it.

Same here. I want this thread graveyarded.

If you're tired of talking about it then why are you still in this thread?

[rams80]

Why do people always have to find something to b*tch about? It's a goddam baseball team, you don't have to like them, you don't have to support them, you don't have to watch them, you can even pretend they don't exist if you dislike the name and logo that much. Whether this name and logo is changed of not will make absolutely no difference in your life.

And do people really think these teams named themselves "Indians" and "Redskins" to offend people? If so we'd probably have the "Detroit N******" and "Los Angeles S****"

I don't mean to offend anyone with the last part, but come on people, it's not like the owners said "I really hate Indians so I'm gonna name my team after them to piss them off"

Well, LetsGoOakland, it's funny you bring up the Redskins name when making that argument. See, George Preston Marshall was indeed a well-documented racist (among other things, waiting until 1962 to integrate the Redskins and only then under heavy federal pressure and stipulating his will that none of the money in the charitable endowment he set up was to be used to promote racial integration.)

So, yeah, the "racial slur" aspect of the Redskins name likely did appeal to him because of its offensive nature.

[RedSox44]

While I am not saying that race is a trivial thing, many people would disagree with you that their faith (regardless of what it is) is something they chose. To many people throughout the world their religion is no more a choice than their, race, hair color or sexuality.

It's not the same. No matter how ingrained religion might be, a person can always choose not to follow it. You can't choose not to be a white guy.

I don't think that most people of strong faith can simply choose to flip a switch and no longer believe it.

I'll jump in here. I understand this position, but I disagree with it.

I was once devoutly Carholic. For most of my life, I had never questioned the existence of a God.

Personal experience (many deaths in my family), my attendance in several science classes (particularly focused on Darwinian theory) and seeing how truly homophobic my parish was led me to dropping my faith entirely and becoming atheist.

Catholicism was ingrained in me deeply since birth. And I dropped it.

That can never happen with a race. You can't read a book or have personal experiences which lead you to one day come to the realization "I'm not an Asian anymore!"

And how many people pick up new religions each year? Tens of thousands? A fully-European white guy can't just decide he's Latino one day, go through initiation rituals and become Latino like people can with religions.

Religion and race aren't the same thing. Similar, I'll grant, but not the same.

[charger77]

My stance was never that they were the same thing, just that to many they do not feel that their faith is a choice, its just who they are. Now I am sure I'll get bashed for this but to many people it is like being gay. They did not choose it, they just are and they can't just stop being gay. There are many devout Chistians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus etc... that feel the same way about their religion.

Now, I am not one of these people that have a strong religious faith, but I do understand and appreciate that there are people throughout the world that feel that way.

[sportstar1212]

Great. Now this is turning into a debate about religion. All the more reason to graveyard this thread.

[rams80]

Great. Now this is turning into a debate about religion. All the more reason to graveyard this thread.

Thread.

Reading it.

Stop.